Regarding colonial "mules", here is some information provided by another forum member:
"Colonial" Mules are a whole collecting area on to themselves. Most, but certainly not all, were made in the Birmingham area of England in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. They also range in price from a few hundred dollars to a few hundred thousand dollars. The more expensive ones tending to be "American" made examples like the Washington Confederatio or Washington New Jersey pieces.
Dalton & Hammer is the authoritative text for the English products and includes all sorts of interesting information about original and mule tokens like the Talbot Allum Lee Liberty & Commerce and Myddleton pieces. As an aside, many people like to form Talbot Allum Lee/Liberty and Commerce Collection. There are a 1794 and 1795 Proof and Regular strike Talbot Allum Lees, a 1794 variety that omits the words New York on the reverse and 6 very lovely and historic Mules like the John Howard...With a little bit of work and hunting, except for the "No New York" Talbot and maybe the "York Cathedral" Mule, these are all fairly obtainable at the sub $2000 each level in decent grade. They form a very interesting and attractive collection.
To Colonial Collectors present and future: Midlifecrisis has provided a very informative post with, links, lists references, and comments that should be saved. I strongly suggest for the novice to select a coin example found in an auction catalogue or pictured inventory or archive list of one of the specialty dealers and start to read on a single coin type. You may be entranced or feel driven to return to your lincoln cent collection. After you are emersed in in the process then subscribe/join the Colonial Coin Collectors Club and sign up for the ANA Summer Seminar Course on Colonials by two knowlegable and enthusiastic teachers who will drive you through hundreds of years of histoy, economics and coining. If you are hooked start reading, A library is esential but if you are limited in funds join the ANA and use there excellent loaner libary. The collecting of colonial era coins can be inexpensive or very expensive experience but you get much more in rarity and interest studying colonials than you do in collecting a key date of an series of otherwise similar designs. I know I have and do(ne) both. For some collectors, colonials may have been the beginning and end of collecting coins but most have aquired a taste after years of numismatic maturation (i.e. contemporary (modern) to classic to early federal and finally to Colonial era). Thanks MLC for sharing your enthusism and experience. Edited to add that the link to the first Fugio thread was an added bonus. JK's gentle correction of a historical misperception was delightful.
I actually finally read this post...post to post as it were, and it's an excellant one. Great job Mid Life.
Just a little bit of an ironic twist to Ambro51's post about New Jersey Coppers retaining their value better during the Copper panic of the late 1700s because of their legislated and perceived value of 150 grains to the copper. By late 1787, New Jersey Coppers were likely being manufactured in quantity at only two places. First, Elizabethtown, New Jersey where Revolutionary War hero Mathias Ogden was running a minting operation. The other in Newburgh, New York were another Revolutionary War hero, Thomas Machin was also running a Mint operation. In both cases, each war hero was overstriking New Jersey coppers on just about any piece of copper that came their way...Connecticuts, Machins, Vermonts, Counterfeit British Halfpennies, believe it or not.....even a Clinton Cent. But they were doing it for the express reason of arbitraging light weight depressed copper purchased at significant discounts with overstruck New Jersey coppers that fooled their way into many people's pockets thinking they were of good wiegt and value (close to the 15 to the New Jersey shiling they were supposed to originally trade at). People were even paying their New Jersey taxes with these overstruck, underweight coppers.
Mike, you are very poetic and very correct, as I discovered when I bought my first colonial, a well worn NJ copper, then dove head first into the series! This has been a very interesting post, and kinda makes me regret selling my collection.
Arnold
In the Spain column, the word "dollar" is used. Not thaler or daller or rixdollar, but dollar. This (1740) is the oldest reference I have ever seen to use the word "dollar".
Very interesting "Tables of Monies and Coins of Europe". Dollars and Rixdollars are so noted. Thanks @KindaNewish for sharing this information. Peace Roy
One of my many pet peeves, the result of an unbalanced mind: would somebody please tell me why the Mott token is still collected as a colonial? I get the "tradition" thing, but sooner or later one would think enough would be enough. I see that it's on the registry list... really?
@oldabeintx said:
One of my many pet peeves, the result of an unbalanced mind: would somebody please tell me why the Mott token is still collected as a colonial? I get the "tradition" thing, but sooner or later one would think enough would be enough. I see that it's on the registry list... really?
I concur.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@MidLifeCrisis which issue is at the top of your “hit list”? Will you be doing world coins from early America as well?
World coins that circulated in early America are certainly an important part of colonial collecting and of understanding money in the colonial era. I will eventually add them to my collection.
However, my primary focus will be "traditional" US colonial coins and the top two on my "hit list" are a Fugio a large planchet Pine Tree Shilling. Both have been favorites of mine since I started collecting colonials some 14 years ago.
Thank you for doing this. I've expanded my colonial type to include many of the coins on your list (no gold, yet) and have branched out into Patent Farthings and added coin types that have been dug in Jamestown. No limit to enjoyment once you open this door. Great thread.
I really do love Colonial’s. I wanted to assemble a collection for a very long time. After researching
I decided the best way for me to have a nice collection was to go the unconventional way, meaning
electrotypes. As I learned more and more about electrotypes the more I liked trying to assemble a collection of the best quality and highest grades I could find. This is proving to be more difficult than finding the real ones as most are rarer then the originals.
.
One coin(Pine tree) ended up being a Wyatt Copy which to me in hand is super cool.
Another coin(three hammers) can be traced to Newman’s finest graded.
Another which is the Barr Cent is a well known struck copy but the name escapes me right now.
There are a few more struck copies but majority are electrotypes.
One day I will put all my notes together and Put a description to each one but for now I only have this
wallpaper I put together a while back. It’s not complete as I still need to add images of a few more I’ve added to the collection. Almost everyone here has probably seen it but for the 1 or 2 that didn’t I will post it again.
While the 1792 Dickeson Restrike Cent is not a Colonial I think my electrotype is a rather nice example.
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The envelope that came with the piece. Even though I don't remember who/whereI purchased this one from it appears to be an older Coin Rarities on the envelope.
.
@coinsarefun said:
I really do love Colonial’s. I wanted to assemble a collection for a very long time. After researching
I decided the best way for me to have a nice collection was to go the unconventional way, meaning
electrotypes. As I learned more and more about electrotypes the more I liked trying to assemble a collection of the best quality and highest grades I could find. This is proving to be more difficult than finding the real ones as most are rarer then the originals.
.
One coin(Pine tree) ended up being a Wyatt Copy which to me in hand is super cool.
Another coin(three hammers) can be traced to Newman’s finest graded.
Another which is the Barr Cent is a well known struck copy but the name escapes me right now.
There are a few more struck copies but majority are electrotypes.
One day I will put all my notes together and Put a description to each one but for now I only have this
wallpaper I put together a while back. It’s not complete as I still need to add images of a few more I’ve added to the collection. Almost everyone here has probably seen it but for the 1 or 2 that didn’t I will post it again.
While the 1792 Dickeson Restrike Cent is not a Colonial I think my electrotype is a rather nice example.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The envelope that came with the piece. Even though I don't remember who/whereI purchased this one from it appears to be an older Coin Rarities on the envelope.
.
The address on the CR(pre-O) would match with Dave Wnuck.
@coinsarefun said:
I really do love Colonial’s. I wanted to assemble a collection for a very long time. After researching
I decided the best way for me to have a nice collection was to go the unconventional way, meaning
electrotypes. As I learned more and more about electrotypes the more I liked trying to assemble a collection of the best quality and highest grades I could find. This is proving to be more difficult than finding the real ones as most are rarer then the originals.
That's a very cool and interesting way to collect colonials or anything else. Bravo!
Thanks @MidLifeCrisis. I’m glad you can appreciate the unconventional way I collect these.
I have this 1733 Rosa Americana Twopence. K.4. Silver Robinson’s copy. NGC MS63
.
.
ex. Ford from the Le Chameau shipwreck off the cost of Nova Scotia. Ford advised the recovery on the numismatic aspects of the endeavor. For payment he kept several from the wreck, this pieces being described as the finest from his estate. Presumably, that would mean to me that this is the finest L d'Or recovered from the Le Chameau.
ex. Ford from the Le Chameau shipwreck off the cost of Nova Scotia. Ford advised the recovery on the numismatic aspects of the endeavor. For payment he kept several from the wreck, this pieces being described as the finest from his estate. Presumably, that would mean to me that this is the finest L d'Or recovered from the Le Chameau.
I would consider the 1749 halfpenny and farthing to be true colonial issues.
In 1750, the British government sent roughly 1/3rd of the mintage of 1749 Farthings and halfpennys to the colonies to pay for the colonial assistance in the Lewisburg expedition along Cape Breton Island (and presumably to alleviate some of the small change shortages which plagued the colonies). This is the only regal issue authorized to circulate in the colonies. In total the coppers included over 800,000 halfpence and more than 420,000 farthings all dated 1749.
So if you find a 1749 farthing or ha’penny, there is a good chance that it was circulating in colonial America.
@Boosibri said:
I would consider the 1749 halfpenny and farthing to be true colonial issues.
In 1750, the British government sent roughly 1/3rd of the mintage of 1749 Farthings and halfpennys to the colonies to pay for the colonial assistance in the Lewisburg expedition along Cape Breton Island (and presumably to alleviate some of the small change shortages which plagued the colonies). This is the only regal issue authorized to circulate in the colonies. In total the coppers included over 800,000 halfpence and more than 420,000 farthings all dated 1749.
So if you find a 1749 farthing or ha’penny, there is a good chance that it was circulating in colonial America.
I was wondering why these were on your PCGS list of foreign/colonial, thanks for the background. I coincidentally have the halfpenny but the farthing looks tough based on my searches the last few days. There are a couple of very nice MS examples available, but more than I had planned to spend. Looking more XF-ish to match the halfpenny (PCGS 40).
Comments
"Colonial" Mules are a whole collecting area on to themselves. Most, but certainly not all, were made in the Birmingham area of England in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. They also range in price from a few hundred dollars to a few hundred thousand dollars. The more expensive ones tending to be "American" made examples like the Washington Confederatio or Washington New Jersey pieces.
Dalton & Hammer is the authoritative text for the English products and includes all sorts of interesting information about original and mule tokens like the Talbot Allum Lee Liberty & Commerce and Myddleton pieces. As an aside, many people like to form Talbot Allum Lee/Liberty and Commerce Collection. There are a 1794 and 1795 Proof and Regular strike Talbot Allum Lees, a 1794 variety that omits the words New York on the reverse and 6 very lovely and historic Mules like the John Howard...With a little bit of work and hunting, except for the "No New York" Talbot and maybe the "York Cathedral" Mule, these are all fairly obtainable at the sub $2000 each level in decent grade. They form a very interesting and attractive collection.
Best,
novacaesarea
Midlifecrisis has provided a very informative post with, links, lists references, and comments that should be saved.
I strongly suggest for the novice to select a coin example found in an auction catalogue or pictured inventory or archive list of one of the specialty dealers and start to read on a single coin type. You may be entranced or feel driven to return to your lincoln cent collection. After you are emersed in in the process then subscribe/join the Colonial Coin Collectors Club and sign up for the ANA Summer Seminar Course on Colonials by two knowlegable and enthusiastic teachers who will drive you through hundreds of years of histoy, economics and coining. If you are hooked start reading, A library is esential but if you are limited in funds join the ANA and use there excellent loaner libary. The collecting of colonial era coins can be inexpensive or very expensive experience but you get much more in rarity and interest studying colonials than you do in collecting a key date of an series of otherwise similar designs. I know I have and do(ne) both.
For some collectors, colonials may have been the beginning and end of collecting coins but most have aquired a taste after years of numismatic maturation (i.e. contemporary (modern) to classic to early federal and finally to Colonial era).
Thanks MLC for sharing your enthusism and experience.
Edited to add that the link to the first Fugio thread was an added bonus. JK's gentle correction of a historical misperception was delightful.
I actually finally read this post...post to post as it were, and it's an excellant one. Great job Mid Life.
Just a little bit of an ironic twist to Ambro51's post about New Jersey Coppers retaining their value better during the Copper panic of the late 1700s because of their legislated and perceived value of 150 grains to the copper. By late 1787, New Jersey Coppers were likely being manufactured in quantity at only two places. First, Elizabethtown, New Jersey where Revolutionary War hero Mathias Ogden was running a minting operation. The other in Newburgh, New York were another Revolutionary War hero, Thomas Machin was also running a Mint operation. In both cases, each war hero was overstriking New Jersey coppers on just about any piece of copper that came their way...Connecticuts, Machins, Vermonts, Counterfeit British Halfpennies, believe it or not.....even a Clinton Cent. But they were doing it for the express reason of arbitraging light weight depressed copper purchased at significant discounts with overstruck New Jersey coppers that fooled their way into many people's pockets thinking they were of good wiegt and value (close to the 15 to the New Jersey shiling they were supposed to originally trade at). People were even paying their New Jersey taxes with these overstruck, underweight coppers.
Anyway, a little bit of historical irony.
Best,
novacaesarea
(For anyone interested in colonials) *bump
Where is @MidLifeCrisis ?
I miss his passion for the colonials, pedigreed back to the great collectors before him.
Hope to see some posts soon
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I wish I could afford a Rhode Island Ship Medal. Such a fascinating back story. Maybe one day I will.
Minimally, I hope every serious collector would own a Fugio to capture the colonial period in their collection.
An entire 2-page thread about coins without a single legit coin image? That's outrageous!
Well I'm not going to stand by and let you gentlemen be all scholarly without adding some sex and sizzle:
--Severian the Lame
I miss MLC's posts too. Always willing to share knowledge, and a really discerning eye. Remember that silver Myddleton token he had? Awesome piece!
@Weiss - that shilling has a ton of character!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Sure do miss OPs input. Anyone know his status?
Bumping one of my old threads...a favorite that I hope you enjoy.
Mike, you are very poetic and very correct, as I discovered when I bought my first colonial, a well worn NJ copper, then dove head first into the series! This has been a very interesting post, and kinda makes me regret selling my collection.
Arnold
carolinacollectorcoins.com
All I can say is, I am soooo glad to be on CU to receive the gift of knowledge from everyone and especially MLC. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun
So once again, an old post sends me down the rabbit hole of research. The chart on the first post intrigued me, and then I came across this:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_gentleman_s_magazine/qUxGAAAAcAAJ
you don't have to download the PDF, just click on the "read for free" link and scroll to pages 106 to 108.
In the Spain column, the word "dollar" is used. Not thaler or daller or rixdollar, but dollar. This (1740) is the oldest reference I have ever seen to use the word "dollar".
Very interesting "Tables of Monies and Coins of Europe". Dollars and Rixdollars are so noted. Thanks @KindaNewish for sharing this information. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun
Here's an old thread I created. I changed the title.
I believe Weiss has owned that Shilling long enough!
One of my many pet peeves, the result of an unbalanced mind: would somebody please tell me why the Mott token is still collected as a colonial? I get the "tradition" thing, but sooner or later one would think enough would be enough. I see that it's on the registry list... really?
I concur.
Thanks for reviving this thread @MidLifeCrisis
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Thanks MLC!
Here are 2 contributions
More pictures!!!
@MidLifeCrisis which issue is at the top of your “hit list”? Will you be doing world coins from early America as well?
Latin American Collection
Here is a “World Coins in Early America” registry set that I worked with PCGS to create in case those on this thread have not seen it. No way is it all encompassing, but intended to be a helpful representation.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/multi-country/multi-country-type-sets/world-coins-circulating-early-america-type-set-circulation-strikes-1575-1826/6333
Latin American Collection
World coins that circulated in early America are certainly an important part of colonial collecting and of understanding money in the colonial era. I will eventually add them to my collection.
However, my primary focus will be "traditional" US colonial coins and the top two on my "hit list" are a Fugio a large planchet Pine Tree Shilling. Both have been favorites of mine since I started collecting colonials some 14 years ago.
Thank you for doing this. I've expanded my colonial type to include many of the coins on your list (no gold, yet) and have branched out into Patent Farthings and added coin types that have been dug in Jamestown. No limit to enjoyment once you open this door. Great thread.
Two states I've lived in and wanted colonial examples:
Like the clashing here:
My avatar, a '76!
My current "Box of 20"
Nice coins and great reasons to buy them.
Picked this up as type, fell in love with the eye.
Oops, Let's see if I can grab the correct file.
I really do love Colonial’s. I wanted to assemble a collection for a very long time. After researching
I decided the best way for me to have a nice collection was to go the unconventional way, meaning
electrotypes. As I learned more and more about electrotypes the more I liked trying to assemble a collection of the best quality and highest grades I could find. This is proving to be more difficult than finding the real ones as most are rarer then the originals.
.
One coin(Pine tree) ended up being a Wyatt Copy which to me in hand is super cool.
Another coin(three hammers) can be traced to Newman’s finest graded.
Another which is the Barr Cent is a well known struck copy but the name escapes me right now.
There are a few more struck copies but majority are electrotypes.
One day I will put all my notes together and Put a description to each one but for now I only have this
wallpaper I put together a while back. It’s not complete as I still need to add images of a few more I’ve added to the collection. Almost everyone here has probably seen it but for the 1 or 2 that didn’t I will post it again.
While the 1792 Dickeson Restrike Cent is not a Colonial I think my electrotype is a rather nice example.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The envelope that came with the piece. Even though I don't remember who/whereI purchased this one from it appears to be an older Coin Rarities on the envelope.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
The address on the CR(pre-O) would match with Dave Wnuck.
Latin American Collection
That's a very cool and interesting way to collect colonials or anything else. Bravo!
That Myddelton Token Electrotype is exceptional!
Thanks @MidLifeCrisis. I’m glad you can appreciate the unconventional way I collect these.
I have this 1733 Rosa Americana Twopence. K.4. Silver Robinson’s copy. NGC MS63
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Does this old MLC friend count as a colonial?
Latin American Collection
Dang @Boosibri !
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
ex. Ford from the Le Chameau shipwreck off the cost of Nova Scotia. Ford advised the recovery on the numismatic aspects of the endeavor. For payment he kept several from the wreck, this pieces being described as the finest from his estate. Presumably, that would mean to me that this is the finest L d'Or recovered from the Le Chameau.
Latin American Collection
And there was this:
I would consider the 1749 halfpenny and farthing to be true colonial issues.
In 1750, the British government sent roughly 1/3rd of the mintage of 1749 Farthings and halfpennys to the colonies to pay for the colonial assistance in the Lewisburg expedition along Cape Breton Island (and presumably to alleviate some of the small change shortages which plagued the colonies). This is the only regal issue authorized to circulate in the colonies. In total the coppers included over 800,000 halfpence and more than 420,000 farthings all dated 1749.
So if you find a 1749 farthing or ha’penny, there is a good chance that it was circulating in colonial America.
Latin American Collection
I was wondering why these were on your PCGS list of foreign/colonial, thanks for the background. I coincidentally have the halfpenny but the farthing looks tough based on my searches the last few days. There are a couple of very nice MS examples available, but more than I had planned to spend. Looking more XF-ish to match the halfpenny (PCGS 40).