OFFICIAL COLONIAL THREAD

MidLifeCrisis

Here's an old thread I created. I changed the title.
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Here is my attempt to create a thread devoted to all things colonial. I welcome all input from other forum members who have some interest in colonial era coins and collecting.

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I posted the following article on Stefanie's Coins Are Fun website a while back.

It includes thoughts, tips, and guidance I have received (from ColonialCoinUnion, Pistareen, and others), and lessons I learned through personal experience.

Colonial coin collecting continues to be one of my favorite areas of numismatics, so I thought I'd post the article here and invite your feedback / discussion.


The Challenge of Colonial Coin Collecting

Part I. What is a colonial coin?





I’m sometimes asked “Where can I find a listing of the colonial coins that would be required for a Type set?”

First of all, I wouldn't get too caught up in the debate about what coins are actually colonial, pre-colonial, pre-federal, etc. I use the term "colonial era coins" and collect what I like!

To get a list for a type set, you could start out by using the Redbook. I use the PCGS Early American Coins and Tokens Basic Design Set, which consists of the following coins:

Massachusetts Silver Oak Tree
Massachusetts Silver Pine Tree
Maryland Coinage
New Jersey St. Patrick Coinage
American Plantation Token
Rosa Americana Coinage
Woods Hibernia Coinage
Virginia Coinage
Elephant Token Halfpenny
Higley Copper
Voce Populi Coinage
Pitt Token
Rhode Island Ship Medal
Chalmers Coinage
French Colonies Billon Coinage
French Colonies Sou 1767
Continental Dollar
Nova Constellatio Copper
Immunis Columbia
Massachusetts Copper
Connecticut Copper Bust Left
New York Excelsior
Machin’s Mills Copper
Nova Eborac Copper
New Jersey Copper Head Right
Vermont Copper Plow
Vermont Copper Bust Right
North American Token
Bar Copper
Auctori Plebis Token
Mott Token
Kentucky Copper
Franklin Press Token
Myddelton Token
Castorland Medal
Talbot Allum & Lee Cent
Washington Triumpho Token
Washington Military Bust
Washington Draped Bust
Washington 1791-95 'Washington President' Obverse
Washington Undated Liberty & Security
Washington Success Medal
Fugio Cent





There are many ways to collect colonial era coins. They include:

A limited type set of "mainstream colonials", such as Pine Tree Shillings, Fugio Coppers, Continental Dollars, Nova Constellatio Coppers, etc.

A complete type set covering every series in the Redbook.

An expanded type set of all colonial related issues, including Redbook coins, other circulating world coins and other association pieces.

An in depth focus on one series (such as Talbot, Allum and Lee coins, including all of the mules and all variants, or Pitt related items, including coins, medals and ephemera).

A collection of state coppers by die variety, such as Connecticuts by Miller variety.

Same as the preceding, but also including die states

Same as preceding, but also including unusual and interesting errors, PDVs (painted die varieties), unusually light or heavy coins, etc.

A theme collection, such coins with boats on them.

One of the great things about collecting colonials is that there are countless ways to design your collection.


Part II. The Necessary Research






The saying "buy the book before you buy the coin" is old but good. Before you buy any colonial era coins, you should spend a little money on a couple of books and auction catalogs.

Books:

The History of United States Coinage, As Illustrated by the Garrett Collection, by Q. David Bowers. This book highlights one of the finest collections ever formed and it has extensive information about colonials.

The Early Coins of America, by Sylvester Crosby is a must-have book for colonial collectors.

Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, also by Bowers. This recently published book is an excellent basic reference.

Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins, by Walter Breen. Even with its flaws, it's a great reference.

Auction catalogs:

Stack's series of John Ford Sales
John J. Ford’s collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coinage. This massive collection was sold by Stack’s in a series of 21 auctions for over $56 million.

Stack's Roper Collection sale
John L. Roper, 2nd, was "a prominent Virginia industrialist and public figure". He assembled one of the finest collections of colonial era coins ever to come to public auction. The coins were sold by Stack's in December 1983. According to the auction catalog, the collection contained many fantastic rarities including:
- Six specimens of Sommer Islands coinage, including the extremely rare shilling with large sails, a superb sixpence with small portholes, and a twopence
- Thirty six pieces of Massachusetts silver including the finest known (at the time...maybe still) New England Sixpence
- A complete set of Maryland coinage, including shilling, sixpence, groat (fourpence), and denarium
- A complete set of regular issue Rosa Americana coinage along with a large number of Rosa Americana pattern pieces
- An extremely rare "God Preserve New England" Elephant Token
- A 1714 Gloucester Token (Amazing rarity - 2 or 3 known - and a mysterious and fabulous coin, I think)
- Seven (!) different examples of Higley Copper coinage
- A brass Continental Dollar
- A Standish Barry Silver Threepence
- Two Albany Church Pennies
- Complete set of three Myddelton Token varieties (copper, silver, and COPPER COMPANY OF UPPER CANADA reverse)

Bowers and Ruddy's series of Garrett Collection sales
As noted above, the Garretts formed one of the finest and most extensive coin collections ever. One of their primary collecting areas was colonial era and other early American coins.

Bower's and Merena's Eliasberg Collection Sale, Part I
In addition to being the only complete collection of federal US coinage ever formed, the Louis Eliasberg collection also contained a limited offering of superb colonial pieces.

Bowers and Merena's series of Norweb Collection sales
Also an extensive collection that contained many major colonial rarities.


Part III. Tips for Collecting Colonials…and Other Thoughts

Once you've read a bit and feel comfortable buying an inexpensive colonial or two, here are some additional thoughts to keep in mind:

Initially, I recommend that you only buy coins certified and graded by a reputable third party grading service such as PCGS.

You could look for coins in PCGS genuine holders, but I suspect most that you find will be rare and expensive. So, even though I don't like NGC as much as PCGS for colonials, NGC NCS slabs could be a decent alternative if you are on a budget but super picky.

In any case, stay away from harshly cleaned coins...but realize that a lot of early copper has been brushed, oiled, lacquered, waxed or otherwise "conserved" and you may be ok with buying those coins. Personally, I shy away from them and seek out coins that I believe are original...but I recognize that conserving copper has been a widely accepted practice in the hobby for years and there are a lot of nice coins to be found this way.

In my opinion, color and surface quality are the most important aspects of early copper and other colonial era coins. I prefer a smooth, hard planchet with a nice, even warm color that reminds me of milk chocolate. For silver, I look for the same attributes in the planchet and I look for dirt between the devices, natural but subtle toning that comes with age...and in all cases, strong eye appeal.

Realize that many colonial varieties come with less than ideal planchets...weak strike, off center, die cracks, dings, discoloration, etc. In some cases, you may have to just accept this if you want an affordable coin. Some colonial coins just don't exist in mint state. Some are so rare and popular that they are prohibitively expensive in high grades. You should study the series and decide what the "optimal collector grade" will be for you...but remember that high grade colonials are very difficult to find!

Colonials are challenging for a lot of reasons. Even after you have a lot of experience with them, you can still make a bad purchase or pay more than you should. Even dealers who are experts in colonials make mistakes...I know because they've shared those stories with me as teaching points.

Going back to what I've said before, I really think your first big investment should be to obtain as many of the Stack's auction catalogs for the Ford collection as you can, as well as the Stack's auction catalog for the Roper collection and Bowers' catalogs of the Garrett collection. These are great references and you will learn a lot by studying them.

But even Ford, Roper and Garrett - who all had a lot of money and could pick and choose as they liked - had a few coins in their collection that seem like mistake purchases and are "dogs" compared to the rest of their coins.

It takes some work to become a knowledgeable colonial coin collector. It takes focus, opportunity, and above all, patience to form a quality collection of colonial era coins.

But colonials are a lot of fun because they are so challenging!

LanceNewmanOCC

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it is for posts like this why i joined this forum, to read and contribute when i can. this time i am the beneficiary. ty mlc
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x2rider

Thanks MLC . Thats a great read

Coinosaurus

That bookshelf looks an awful lot like mine

MacCrimmon

GREAT POST!!!

Interesting the Philly and NY carried those premiums....what year is that advert from?


Also, what do an entire set of those Ford cats. run in the aftermarket?

TPRC

Thanks for the useful and informative post, MidLife. I do not have a full set of the Ford sale, and that is a regret. However, the Colonial set has much history, and, in general, presents a lifelong challenge. I should add that Charlie Davis gave me a good list of books on colonials, most of which are included here, and that has helped me along the way. But for the beginner, the Whitman book is really good.

ambro51

Colonials are addictive and vastly more interesting than Federal coinage. Roper had an astounding collection that delved deeply into each small area. No one today could come close to a collection like that. The beauty of the Ford catalogs is that these are OLD collections that came intact unto John Ford. To see for instance Hillyer Ryders personal collection of Vermont Coppers is both stimulating and awe inspiring. I would add though, to be overly selective about the "modern plastic carrying case" a TPG supplies, or even IF it comes in a plastic case, is to eliminate a vast amount of coins from your consideration. Also.... TPGs basically have no clue how to establish a consistent grade standard for early coppers.

Coinosaurus

<< <i>Also, what do an entire set of those Ford cats. run in the aftermarket? >>



$750 maybe? Couple grand in hardbound format. A whole set is nice, but you really only need the ones that cover whatever your speciality area is.

Sonorandesertrat

During the first ANA Summer Seminar session this summer, I took "Colonial Americana: An Exploration Beyond the Coins," taught by John Kraljevich (Pistareen) and Erik Goldstein (Curator of Mechanical Arts and Numismatics at Colonial Williamsburg). It covered many items and topics not even mentioned in the Redbook. Aside from colonial and continental paper money (much of it denominated in terms of Spanish Colonial dollars, or 8 reales coins), topics included collectibles such as almanacs containing coin conversion charts, coin scales and weights, foreign coins that circulated in the colonies, jetons (used as counters by merchants to keep track of finances associated with bartering), cut coins, small ingots, colonial era coins recovered from New World shipwrecks, counterstamped coins, Indian trade items (wampum, copper axe heads, silver crosses, etc.), medals based on themes (e.g., John Law, Admiral Vernon, William Pitt, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Comitia Americana, Indian Peace, or the array of medals listed in the reference by C. W. Betts). Certain post-1945 auctions (e.g., Garrett, Roper, LaRiviere, Ford) figure prominently in collector minds, but the same could be said about 19th-century auctions.

Within the world of colonial numismatics, there is something for everyone. Collectors also interested in archaeology, changing minting technology, counterfeiting, design influences, international commerce, European-Native American encounters, domestic politics, wars, etc., will find much of interest within the world of colonial numismatics. My view of this period (early 15th to late-18th century) in American numismatics certainly has changed. Aside from including items Mark noted, there are numerous ways to put together a distinctive collection, in part by including some items that are not considered coins per se.

agentjim007

What's the denomination of a colonial?

breakdown

Great wonderful post. Sharing your knowledge and experience, even as you step back from collecting, seems like a great pay-it-forward. The hobby needs more people with this mindset.

ambro51

The NJ copper like all except for the mass. issues is not denominated. All coppers this size on theory were a half pence...but as the years moved closer to 1789 exchange values went down. NJ coppers fared better than most bucause at 140 grains or so they held more value than the 90-100 grain coppers from machins mills or counterfeit coppers. Vermonts for instance only had 20% of the intended values by 1788.

yellowkid

Always enjoy your posts, thanks!!

NewEnglandRarities

Fantastic post MLC. Colonials are so interesting and historic and the study of them is just as fascinating as the coins themselves. I know of a few collectors that do not have any coins at all, just study colonial history and write articles or books. Mike Hodder, the well known colonial coin auction writer I don't believe owned any colonials, but certainly enjoyed the study of them to the highest level.

Posts like this should be stickied at the top of the page for all to see!

RevDrBlimber

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Something I have noticed as a recent student of Colonial coins is that the prices have apparently increased a great deal as the charm of these pieces has attracted new customers. In terms of buying and selling them I would want to do a lot of research before spending real money. I recently bought an uncertified Fugio that had a little corrosion, and so it net graded. If you look at the coinraritiesonline site, it is amazing the prices even low grade pieces are bringing and varieties.

TomB

Superb post. I hope you have extra supports beneath the shelves so that there are no mishaps.

USMoneylover

Thanks for sharing your insight on Colonial coins/collecting...great read!

Justacommeman

An absolutely stellar post. I can not wait to aquire a Bar Cent. Just haven't found the right piece yet. That design has always spoken to me. It says, " empty out your wallet".

MJ

mrearlygold

mbogoman

Bravo! Very interesting, indeed. So much history, so many colonials!

RYK

<< <i>An absolutely stellar post. I can not wait to aquire a Bar Cent. Just haven't found the right piece yet. That design has always spoken to me. It says, " empty out your wallet".

MJ >>


Funny, but that design has always said to me, "Keep your money in your pocket!"

I do have a weakness for Pine Trees and Real coins, however.

Great post. Perhaps I will do something similar for 19th century gold at some point.

Broadstruck

Nice post... Yet you should have turned library book pics so the titles could be read more easily!

ColonialCoinUnion

Sorry I'm late - I've been working all morning and did not notice my colonial bat phone ringing.

First off, excellent post, though it might have been even better had it also included info about a colonial coin-related Ebay dispute.

Second, I love the colonial era use of the symbol 'f' as an 's' as seen in your chart.

Third, in response to this comment by another poster

<< <i>TPGs basically have no clue how to establish a consistent grade standard for early coppers. >>

I would say that one need only look through a lot of old catalogs to see that colonial grading has always been subjective and highly, highly variable, much more so in the days before 3rd party certification. And while you (and I) may disagree with slab grades here or there, I would say that today's standards are actually more consistent than in the old days when every individual cataloger, dealer and collector had his own standards, or no standards at all.

However (and this is a large however) colonial coins exhibit significant vagaries of color, planchet quality, strike and centering, etc. and these "non-grade" attributes can impact the value and desirability of a coin as significantly, or even more so, than the numerical grade. As such, a perfectly centered, original, unflawed VF might well sell for more than a flawed, off-center AU, for example. It's very important to understand that before spending a lot of money on any coin.

I could go on and on, but it's time to go see the tall ships in Boston harbor!

MidLifeCrisis

I really appreciate the comments and additional information provided so far.

I'd like to keep this going and turn it into a comprehensive thread that will serve as a nice reference for all colonial enthusiasts, beginner and advanced.

So I will be adding posts with links and additional information periodically, and I encourage you to do the same.

Here is some information that I have in my files. I believe it came from our own ColonialCoinUnion.


The Term Colonial

The term 'colonial coin' is generally used among collectors and specialists in this area as convenient shorthand for a much broader group of coins and tokens which the Redbook has historically listed in 12 distinct categories:

Spanish Colonial Issues

British New World Issues

Coinage Authorized by British Royal Patent

Early American and Related Tokens

French New World Issues

Speculative Issues, Tokens, and Patterns

Coinage of the States

Private Tokens After Confederation

Washington Pieces

Continental Currency

Nova Constellation Patterns

Fugio Cents

Of the coins and tokens listed above, the earliest piece bears the date 1652, and the latest 1820 – though others were struck as early as 1616 and undated, or as late as 1850 or 1860 and backdated. Are you with me so far?

Some coins and tokens on this list were struck in early America, others in England, Ireland, France, Spain, Mexico, etc.

Some circulated in early America (but also in what is now Canada, Bermuda, the Caribbean, etc.) as money, by official decree, some informally, some perhaps not at all.

And some issues are on this list because they bear motifs or legends which have some connection (however tenuous) to early America.

And this is to say nothing of the other issues and series which are often referred to as colonial, or colonial related - including contemporary circulating counterfeits of American origin, additional foreign issues known to have circulated in early America, some medals, etc. - which aren’t in the Redbook. Yet.

In other words, these issues are not all Colonial per the normal definition of the word. But in the absence of any other convenient, universally accepted term to describe all of these diverse coins and tokens (and because reciting these 12 categories and the other unlisted items by name is fairly cumbersome), it is the best we have for now.

MidLifeCrisis

Some useful websites:

Coin and Currency Collections at the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections

Coins and Currency in Colonial America Online Exhibit Presented by Colonial Williamsburg

The Colonial Coin Collectors Club

Researching Colonial America

MidLifeCrisis

Random additional thoughts...
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I love coins. Especially colonials. There are so many cool and interesting coins out there that, when I was building my collection, I had to define ways to stay focused and limit what I bought. If I didn't, I would have gone broke pretty quickly buying everything I liked. Or I would never have been satisfied with what I had because there would always be another coin that caught my eye.

So I set parameters to define my collection. I chose pedigrees - more accurately, colonial era coins with a traceable provenance - because they give the coin a story; they give a human aspect to the coin that I find interesting; and coins with well known pedigrees are generally nicer - not always, but generally.

However, while I think pedigrees can be really cool and add an interesting aspect to a coin, the coin has to be great on its own. A pedigree cannot make a coin.
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Top 10 Ugliest Colonial Coins - Here's My List (the order is not set in stone):

1. Sommer Island coins - they have a pig on the obverse.
2. Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.
3. Voce Populi coins - most of the varieties are pretty ugly.
4. Washington the Great - Ugly Head Copper
5. Vermont bust coins
6. Pitt Tokens - William Pitt: another less than handsome fellow.
7. Machin's Mills coins - most varieties are hard to look at.
8. Elephant Tokens
9. Nova Eborac coppers
10. Auctori Plebis tokens
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If I did not focus on colonials almost exclusively - if I were just wanting to add some colonial era coins to my collection to represent the various types - here's what I'd choose:

1. 1787 Fugio copper - Newman 13-X variety. This is a common variety easily obtainable in nice, uncirculated condition because of the Bank of New York Hoard. As such, it could serve well as a definitive example.

2. 1652 Pine Tree Shilling, Large Planchet, Noe 1 - the so-called 'Pellets at Trunk' variety.

3. Bar Copper, circa 1785 – Popular, easily recognizable coin with a design based on the buttons of Continental soldiers' uniforms. Very patriotic for early America, even though they were made in England.

4. 1783 John Chalmers Shilling – long or short worm variety; made in Maryland.

5. French Colonies Sou Marque (also known as a Double Sol or 24 Deniers) – The French and their colonization of early America are very important to our history and our rise as a nation and I think they should be represented.

6. St. Patrick Copper Farthing or Halfpenny, circa 1670-1674 – Very early coins brought over from Ireland and authorized expressly as legal coinage in New Jersey.

7. 1773 Virginia Halfpenny, With Period variety – easily obtainable in high grade because of a keg of uncirculated pieces that was found in Richmond, Virginia just prior to the Civil War.

8. 1787 Connecticut Copper, Miller 6.1-M the Laughing Head variety - Copper coins were struck in Connecticut beginning in 1785. Over 350 distinct die varieties are known to exist today. The Laughing Head is an interesting representative for the type.

9. 1786 Vermont Copper Landscape type – VERMONTENSIUM, Ryder 6 variety – A common but impressive coin.

10. 1723 Rosa Americana twopence, Crowned Rosa variety - Struck under authorization from the King and produced expressly for use in British North America, this type would have been familiar in commerce for most of the 18th century.

11. The Spanish milled dollar, 8 reales, otherwise known as the Pillar dollar or piece of eight - Thomas Jefferson recommended to the Continental Congress on September 2, 1776, that the new country adopt the silver Spanish milled dollar as its monetary unit of value. The piece of eight continued to be a standard money unit in early America throughout the colonial period and circulated in the United States with official sanction until 1857.

12. 1791 Washington Small Eagle (or Large Eagle) Cent - Specifically because of these coins, George Washington rejected the idea of having his portrait on coins as overly monarchical.
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Colonial WOW Coins

Sommer Island Sixpence (Ca. 1616)

New England Shilling (Ca. 1652)

1652 Willow Tree Sixpence

Maryland Lord Baltimore Denarium (Ca. 1659)

St. Patrick Farthing, Nimbus Variety

1722 Hibernia Halfpenny, Rocks Right

1773 Virginia Penny

Higley Copper, any variety

Higley Copper, Wheele Goes Round variety (unique, I think)

1670-A French Colonies Double Sol (unique)

1785 Georgius III, Immune Columbia

1787 New York Indian / Arms

1787 New York Excelsior

1790 Standish Barry Threepence

1796 Myddelton Token, copper or silver variety

The Gloucester Courthouse Tokens of 1714-1715

1694 Carolina Elephant Token, Proprietors

(Ca. 1694) Elephant Token, Diagonals

1783 Chalmers Threepence

Libertas Americana Medal

(Ca. 1790) Albany Church Penny, with or without the “D”

1670-A French Colonies 15 Sols

(1797) New York Theatre Token

1795 Washington Liberty & Security Penny, Bust Right

1785 Inimica Tyrannis Confederatio

Washington Liberty & Security Penny, Corded Rim
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Justacommeman

<<Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.>>

That coin gives me the willies. I viewed one on CRO once and had to sleep with lights on that night

MJ

MidLifeCrisis

Mark Newby’s St. Patrick Coppers - halfpenny vs farthing

In my opinion, St. Patrick coppers are among the most interesting coins in the early American colonial era of coinage. Originally minted for use in Ireland, Mark Newby, an English Quaker merchant in Dublin acquired a large supply of these coins which he took with him in 1681 when he emigrated to West New Jersey (New Jersey was divided into separate Eastern and Western colonies from 1676-1702). These coppers come in both large planchet and small planchet varieties, which numismatists have traditionally called a halfpenny and a farthing. On May 18, 1682 the General Free Assembly of West New Jersey granted Newby's coppers legal tender status and allowed them to circulate as small change at the rate of a halfpenny, replacing wampum. Because of this, colonial collectors have historically assumed that Newby brought with him the large planchet coins. Indeed, contemporary sources only mention halfpence.

Contradicting this, In the Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, Q. David Bowers states that the halfpenny "seems to have no connection with West Jersey." He says the farthing "likely represents the coins that circulated in the colony of New Jersey."

Through extensive research, Philip Mossman has demonstrated that the weight of the smaller coin was too heavy for the normal 2:1 ratio of halfpenny to farthing. He concluded that both coins were halfpenny tokens. Most probably, the larger and heavier coins (averaging about 135.7 grains) were produced earlier. These coins are found in only about ten varieties. In all there are about five obverse dies and six reverse dies used in nine or ten combinations. This suggests a rather brief minting period that could at a maximum have only extend over the life of the five obverse dies. It also appears these dies were in simultaneous or at least overlapping use based on the obverse and reverse combinations listed by Vlack (both obverses 1 and 4 are found with reverse B and obverses 2, 3 and 4 share reverse C). Extrapolating from what we know about later colonial American minting operations such as the Massachusetts coppers, these eleven dies would have lasted no more than one year (at the Massachusetts mint in 1787 eleven dies were cut and used to make about 90,900 cents and in 1788 twenty five dies were produced to mint some 210,000 cents). The smaller planchet coins seem to have been much more extensively minted as over 120 die varieties exist. Such a massive die production would clearly have kept the mint in operation for at least two to three years. Not only were these smaller sized coins easier to mint but they were also more profitable. Mossman has calculated that based on the cost of operations and supplies the minting of the large planchet 135.7 grain halfpenny left the minters a profit of 49.1%. By switching to the smaller planchet 92.3 grain halfpenny minting profits were increased to 119.1%.

I think both sizes circulated here as halfpennies and I like Philip Mossman's explanation for the different size coins.

By the way, QDB rated the St. Pats Halfpenny as URS-10, which is roughly Sheldon Rarity-3. I thought they were more like R-5. Regardless, Newby's St. Patrick coppers filled an important need in local commerce and remained in circulation throughout the colonial period. In fact, in 1881 the eminent New Jersey copper specialist Edward Marris stated that St. Patrick coppers continued to be found in change in western New Jersey into the early 19th century.

Sources:
Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, by Q. David Bowers
"St. Patrick Coppers 1674-1675 (1681): Introduction", by Louis Jordan on the University of Notre Dame, Department of Special Collections website

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i><<Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.>>

That coin gives me the willies. I viewed one on CRO once and had to sleep with lights on that night

MJ >>



Man up, MJ. Quit collecting fufu colored commems.

keyman64

I look forward to reading this later tonight after I get home from the beach. I can't wait.

From reading the thread title in regards to the challenge. I hope one of the challenges that is mentioned refers to financial resources.

mkman123

Is there a website with pics of all the colonial coins and how many known etc?

MidLifeCrisis

Threads -

A few personal favorites:

The First Fugio?

The Fugio - Legal Tender in the US Today?

Myddelton Tokens

Higley Coppers


Great threads by other forumites:

Top 10 Reasons I Like Colonials

A Colonial Type Set for the Masses?

Context of the Fugio "Mind Your Business" Legend

Numismatic Treasures 4: 1776 Continental Dollar

Everything you always wanted to know about Vermont Colonials

Question on Colonial Grading

Idle Times at the Colonial Mint

Colonial Coins vs. Colonial Paper Money

MidLifeCrisis

Additional thoughts on grading from a respected expert:


One of the things I really like about Colonials is that it requires a fair bit of time on the bourse floor and reading books, articles etc to get a feel for what a "nice" "high grade" coin is. As a a general rule, I always try to buy the nicest coin I can afford and rarely buy a coin I think i may have to upgrade. But to do that, you really have to know your types and varieties. For example, you can easily acquire a Maris 14-J or Maris 67-v New Jersey Copper in choice EF condition. But show me a problem free VF Maris 15-U and I would jump on it. Likewise a Chalmers Sixpence Short Worm can be obtained in a pretty nice grade, but try to find a long worm in greater than EF condition.

My point is two fold. First, in Colonials, "nice" or "high grade" depends on the coin and the variety. Second, what is great about Colonials is the process of learning what is nice and thus when to the seize the moment.

So net net, I have tried to assemble a collection of "nice" coins, but they range in grade from Good to Uncirculated.

Best,

novacaesarea

ambro51

I think you will have to agree MLC that a half hour spent with the 1983 Roper catalog will have your jaw dropping, and give you the unshakeable feeling of "why the hell am I even trying???". I imagine your copy has drool spots on the Higley pages.... His collection of Immune Columbias, of course without the Gold piece, is breathtaking. Thank GOD there are not zillions of colonial coin collectors, the supply and slow turnover could never support them all.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>I think you will have to agree MLC that a half hour spent with the 1983 Roper catalog will have your jaw dropping, and give you the unshakeable feeling of "why the hell am I even trying???". I imagine your copy has drool spots on the Higley pages.... His collection of Immune Columbias, of course without the Gold piece, is breathtaking. Thank GOD there are not zillions of colonial coin collectors, the supply and slow turnover could never support them all. >>


I do agree!

I was proud to own a few of Roper's coins.

I wanted to build a type set with his as my role model...but that would be impossible today, I think.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>

<< <i><<Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.>>

That coin gives me the willies. I viewed one on CRO once and had to sleep with lights on that night

MJ >>



Man up, MJ. Quit collecting fufu colored commems.






>>


Is MJ actually Justafufucommeman?

ambro51

I Will disagree on two of your "ugly" colonials though, actually three, as if you are seeking an extraordinary Vermont Bust then the Ryder 27 "dome head" is your coin. Since it was a Machins Mill issue, that is also covered. Finely engraved with great detail yet homespun charm, the reverse is also unique and fully detailed. The Somer Island coinage fascinates me, especially since its entire history basically begins with a piece Sylvester Crosby owned, still perhaps the best...and coin by coin, discovery by discovery, a few more come to light and now we can form a limited understanding of them. The write up in the Whitman Colonial book is really interesting. Far out of my budget, all I can hope to do is become familiar with them through these great auction catalogs. Perhaps more so than any other coins, auction catalogs are primary references and hold much information that is available no where else. ....and how can you call a Somer island shilling ugly and a mass pine tree not? 'cause of the piggie? I think it's rather interesting that Bermuda used that same pig on its modern cent! The Somer Island coinage predates Mass silver by 35 years and well preserved examples show great detail in the pig the ship and the lettering. I would imaging the day you add a nice example to your set....it will be "off" the ugly list!

Justacommeman

Whoops double post. MJ

Justacommeman

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<< <i><<Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.>>

That coin gives me the willies. I viewed one on CRO once and had to sleep with lights on that night

MJ >>



Man up, MJ. Quit collecting fufu colored commems.






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Is MJ actually Justafufucommeman?

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Im wearing capri pants as I type this im LA. I've got nothing

MJ

okracer

Wow, alot of good info here! And alot to digest.

I have maybe less than half on your first list. I will need to study this stuff some more...thanks for sharing!

keyman64

<< <i>Threads -

A few personal favorites:

The First Fugio?
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Yipppeeeeee, that was my question.

RYK

<< <i><<Maryland coins depicting Lord Cecil Calvert - he was not a pretty fellow.>>

That coin gives me the willies. I viewed one on CRO once and had to sleep with tights on that night

MJ >>


Interesting choice for pajamas, but...whatever.

SaorAlba

Thank you MidlifeCrisis for posting this - I have been bitten by the Colonial bug, I am just itching to buy a Massachusetts Pine Tree shilling in the near future.

Until then this is my most recent acquisition, from an auction back in March:



The 24 pellet in the rose variety penny - very rare and likely a prototype coin.

MidLifeCrisis

Colonials listed in the Redbook that are actually Conder Tokens:

Kentucky token (Lancashire 59)
Washington Liverpool Halfpenny (Lancashire 116)
Franklin Press (Middlesex 307)
Washington Left Liberty & Security undated (Middlesex 243 Asylum edge)
Washington Right . Liberty & Security . 1795 (Middlesex 244 Asylum edge)
Washington Grate - Large Buttons (Middlesex 283)
Washington Grate - Small Buttons (Middlesex 284)
Washington President 1791 One Cent (Middlesex 1049)
Washington President One Cent 1791 (Middlesex 1050)
Washington President Ship Halfpenny (Middlesex 1051)
Washington Right Liberty & Security 1795 (Middlesex 1052)
Washington North Wales (Middlesex 1052 Bis)
New York Theatre token (Middlesex 167)
Also - Talbot, Allum & Lee pieces are not included in the Conder series by Dalton & Hamer, but the obverse die is of these coins is often paired with several other dies and these mules are part of the Conder series.

MidLifeCrisis

More random thoughts:

- It seems that most of the well-known collectors in the 19th and early 20th centuries had substantial quantities of colonial coins in their collections. Even Eliasberg - who focused on federal issue coinage - had a nice selection of colonials. Yet, nowadays, large colonial collections only seem to be formed by those who choose to specialize in them.

- Forming a simple type set of colonials can become a serious challenge. Just determining what such a type set should include can be difficult. Red book types? PCGS Registry lists? World coins that circulated in early America? Which ones? What varieties? Etc., etc.

- My collecting philosophy concerning colonials evolved over time. When I first started, I wanted to collect only mint state colonials. In fact, really nice, mint state coins from the 18th and sometimes even 17th Centuries have always amazed and awed me. I soon found out that I could not afford such a collection so I settled on mid-grade pieces of XF or better. But then I began to appreciate lower grade colonials more and more - especially rare but easily recognizable varieties with great color (milk chocolate) and surfaces.

- Gold coins from the 18th Century that were used in early America in some fashion (not necessarily circulating widely but used in higher level commerce, for example) are really a great area to further specialize a colonial era collection.

- Colonials are not for everyone. In fact, I have said before that they are an acquired taste. They are not well suited to collectors who only appreciate high grade, mint state coins - especially flashy, blast white ones.

- Grading colonials can be even more subjective than federal issues because of the primitive minting technology, problems with planchets, etc.

- There are really no set price guides to go by when deciding how much to pay for a particular coin - although auction records help a lot. Sometimes it just comes down to what price feels right to you based on your knowledge, experience, and trust in your dealer.

- But to those of you who have some interest in them, please don't let their complexity keep you from learning about them and collecting them. Even on a very low budget, you can assemble a collection of colonial coins that speak volumes about our nation's history and the way people lived during the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries.

- Quality over quantity. If you buy one really nice coin with great eye appeal and focus on originality, color, and surface quality, I believe it would hold it's value very well and would stand a better than even chance of making money for you on resale.


And some additional comments from a fellow forumite:
...I would echo the notion of buying the nicest problem free coins you can reasonably afford given what you want to achieve. But I would also take some time to both study the vast range of pre 1800 Colonial Coins (i.e. get a few books and catalogs) and walk the floors of a few coin shows just looking at a colonials so you can get a sense of the range, condition and prices of these coins.

Books, I would say Bowers Encyclopedia of Colonial Coins, Will Nipper's In Yankee Doodle's Pocket and a Crosby reprint. As far as catalogs go, maybe contact Charlie Davis, Fred Lake, Bryce Brown (the list goes on of Book dealers) for a Copy of the John L. Roper Sale and Maybe Ford I, II and XII. WHile these later Collections of were of superior quality, they will give you a very good visual representation of broad diversified Colonial Coin Collections.

As to what to get. It might make more sense to go through these books and sales before choosing an area. There is a lot out there and collecting styles and areas come in and out of vogue over time. But good quality in whatever area is always in demand. I would also encourage patience. Even the most common Colonial is still rare relative to most Federal Cents. And if you just choose to go out on the bourse floor on any given day, you might just end up buying stale material that has not moved in a while for one reason or another. if you are patient, you for an auction with fresh material like the recent Keller sale or some new material to pop up, odds are that you will end up with a more desirable piece in the long run. Net net, collecting colonials requires a bit of research, a bit of familiarization of what is "desirable" and patience to know and buy the right thing when it comes along.

Having said all that, isn't this what collecting is all about. If you can do it quickly and on the fly, what's the fun. And the best part about Colonials i the great stories they tell.
While the suggestions made are all good (especially regarding Mass Silver), there are Machin's Mills contemporary counterfeits, Washingtonia, first coins issued for certain Colonies (Lord Baltimore, James II 1/24 Reals-----the first official issue for the Colonies), French Colonials, Spanish American. Get an Almanac from 1776 to 1800 and in the front part they have all the coins circulating in the Colonies form hither and yon and their relative exchange rates (some collect these coins).

Colonies are very interesting, can be a lifetime learning and collecting endevour and right now certain areas like State Coppers are very inexpensive relative to the past, Fugios are a little on he high side, Washingtonia is high, Mass Silver is high but still has not reached it's potential (IMO).

Anyway....there is a lot out there. Take some time with this. Collect what you like (love), do it carefully and the money part will work out in the end.

Best,

novacaesarea

okracer

"Mind Your Business"

MidLifeCrisis

More on collecting colonials...

Take baby steps and frequent deep breaths.

Colonials have a mystical, magical, bewitching quality. They lure you in with their quaint, primitive quality and crude designs. They are like the small children of numismatics, innocent and cute, desperate for attention, envious of their Federal cousins, and affectionate when given a good home.

But don't let yourself be fooled.

Add an inexpensive, mid-grade colonial to your collection. It will feel good to own such a tangible piece of history that can conjure images of life in 18th Century America. Soon you will feel a connection - a kinship even - to our founding fathers.

You will want to know more.

Add another piece to your collection, this time an uncirculated Virginia Halfpenny or a Hibernia Farthing. You will gaze in wonder at such a high grade coin, knowing it is well over 200 years old. Amazing!

It will all seem harmless. Fun.

But you will have changed. You will become a different collector, a different person. Without realizing anything is happening, you will start to ignore 20th Century type coins, even 19th Century gold. After all, these mere objects can't compare to the museum worthy pieces you've come to know and even own!

And then, before you know it.........BAM!, the door slams shut and there's no turning back.

Tread carefully, my friend.

MidLifeCrisis

Another book I highly recommend for anyone interested in colonials:

In Yankee Doodle’s Pocket: The Myth, Magic and Politics of Money in Early America - by Will Nipper.

It can be found at most major book sellers. More information can be found here.

NewEnglandRarities

<< <i>Another book I highly recommend for anyone interested in colonials:

In Yankee Doodle’s Pocket: The Myth, Magic and Politics of Money in Early America - by Will Nipper.

It can be found at most major book sellers. More information can be found here. >>



I can say first hand that this is a fantastic book to read and learn from. My good friend wrote this book, and not only is it very informative, but it is truly an enjoyable and entertaining read. Whatever the sale price is, it is well worth it. I have read it cover to cover at least twice if not three times, it never gets old!

NewEnglandRarities

<< <i>More on collecting colonials...

Take baby steps and frequent deep breaths.

Colonials have a mystical, magical, bewitching quality. They lure you in with their quaint, primitive quality and crude designs. They are like the small children of numismatics, innocent and cute, desperate for attention, envious of their Federal cousins, and affectionate when given a good home.

But don't let yourself be fooled.

Add an inexpensive, mid-grade colonial to your collection. It will feel good to own such a tangible piece of history that can conjure images of life in 18th Century America. Soon you will feel a connection - a kinship even - to our founding fathers.

You will want to know more.

Add another piece to your collection, this time an uncirculated Virginia Halfpenny or a Hibernia Farthing. You will gaze in wonder at such a high grade coin, knowing it is well over 200 years old. Amazing!

It will all seem harmless. Fun.

But you will have changed. You will become a different collector, a different person. Without realizing anything is happening, you will start to ignore 20th Century type coins, even 19th Century gold. After all, these mere objects can't compare to the museum worthy pieces you've come to know and even own!

And then, before you know it.........BAM!, the door slams shut and there's no turning back.

Tread carefully, my friend. >>



Great post MLC

This is the most true statement about colonials that can be made. It is a leap to take when you acquire your first colonial as they are quite different from what is the norm for collecting. As soon as you are able to hold one in your hand at your desk at home, cup of coffee (or bourbon) in hand, you will want nothing but to know more and more about your coin. They have a way of speaking to you and the next thought will be, when can I get my next one. Colonials offer such a rewarding collecting experience, and the work and study can pay off very quickly. I got the bug when I was 7 years old and I have never looked back

bidask

I like collecting for the challenge high grade doubloons and spanish dollars.