IF '20 MLB season is wiped out what players on the cusp of the HOF could be affected most ?.........

ScoobyDoo2 · March 29, 2020 6:06PM

....pitchers and/or position players.. by losing an entire season of stats?

orioles93 · March 29, 2020 7:19PM

Edwin Encarnacion and Nelson Cruz would each be affected on their way to 500 homeruns and both are getting older. Nick Markakis on his way to trying to get to 3000 hits needs every season he can get at this point. As far as pitchers, maybe Greinke and Lester trying to accumulate stats and add wins. Kimbrel and Jansen possible trying to add to their closer resume. Not saying all these guys are HOFers, but they are the main ones I can think of that are getting older and still need some additional stats to get in or have a chance.

ernie11 · March 30, 2020 12:17AM

@orioles93 said:
Edwin Encarnacion and Nelson Cruz would each be affected on their way to 500 homeruns and both are getting older. Nick Markakis on his way to trying to get to 3000 hits needs every season he can get at this point. As far as pitchers, maybe Greinke and Lester trying to accumulate stats and add wins. Kimbrel and Jansen possible trying to add to their closer resume. Not saying all these guys are HOFers, but they are the main ones I can think of that are getting older and still need some additional stats to get in or have a chance.

Pretty much agree with your list. Maybe I'd add Scherzer, and maybe Cano could benefit from another season, but he has other issues affecting his HOF chances.

perkdog · March 30, 2020 3:11AM

Hearing Nick Markakis and 3000 hits in the same sentence shocked me

stevek · March 30, 2020 4:43AM

Just like HOF voters gave an allowance for time served in WW2 or any war, and roughly estimated what a particular player would have done based on past performance and performance after he returned, i would think they probably would do about the same thing if the 2020 season is wiped out.

ScoobyDoo2 · March 30, 2020 8:36AM

Ted Williams missed '43-'45....ages 24, 25, 26 seasons..... with those three seasons in tact he easily gets 3100 hits and likely 600 homers...... He played til 41 years of age however..... A guy like an Aaron Judge has already missed the last two seasons with 100 games played in each and if this year is missed he would miss his entire 28 years of age season.... I can't see Aaron playing til he is 40 with that big target of a body he has.... Judge is a guy who might very easily miss a HOF vote by injury default if he even gets nominated..... and yet the big fella is as big a star as any the game has ever had. He is physically and emotionally elite.

orioles93 · March 30, 2020 9:15AM

My thinking with Scherzer and Cano was that they are already HOFers if they retired today, Cano obviously has issues with PEDs that may hinder induction. I personally think Greinke is a HOF right now to, but he is slightly below Scherzer.

As far as Markakis and 3000 hits, its not really likely at this point, he is 36, and he would probably need atleast 3 more seasons as a starter averaging 150 hits, and then hang around a few more years as a reserve. I guess it would all just depend on how long he can play and if he can pull an Ichiro and stick around for a while as a 4th outfielder. He's been incredibly consistent though throughout his career. Hes played 147 plus games 12 out of 14 seasons, and always racked up the hits.

sayheywyo · March 30, 2020 2:10PM

Would definitely hurt Miguel Cabrera's quest for 3000 hits and 500 home runs. I think he'll make HOF based on triple crown, 11x all-star and World Series ring but can't reach elite status without those two personal accomplishments.

perkdog · March 30, 2020 2:19PM

@ScoobyDoo2 said:
Ted Williams missed '43-'45....ages 24, 25, 26 seasons..... with those three seasons in tact he easily gets 3100 hits and likely 600 homers...... He played til 41 years of age however..... A guy like an Aaron Judge has already missed the last two seasons with 100 games played in each and if this year is missed he would miss his entire 28 years of age season.... I can't see Aaron playing til he is 40 with that big target of a body he has.... Judge is a guy who might very easily miss a HOF vote by injury default if he even gets nominated..... and yet the big fella is as big a star as any the game has ever had. He is physically and emotionally elite.

You are seriously over valuing Judge, like in a ridiculous way

Tabe · March 30, 2020 3:26PM

@sayheywyo said:
Would definitely hurt Miguel Cabrera's quest for 3000 hits and 500 home runs. I think he'll make HOF based on triple crown, 11x all-star and World Series ring but can't reach elite status without those two personal accomplishments.

Cabrera sailed into "elite status" a long, long time ago. 11 straight years of 25/100, with 9 of them being .300/25/100 or better. A Triple Crown, four batting titles, and two MVPs. Yeah, already elite.

craig44 · March 30, 2020 4:37PM

@stevek said:
Just like HOF voters gave an allowance for time served in WW2 or any war, and roughly estimated what a particular player would have done based on past performance and performance after he returned, i would think they probably would do about the same thing if the 2020 season is wiped out.

I don't agree. Look at the case of Fred McGriff. Ended up 7 homers shy of 500 due to the strike/lockout of 94-95. He certainly would have sailed by 500 homeruns if not for that. I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time. David Cone also could have used those extra games to possibly have broken through for hof voters.

SDSportsFan · March 30, 2020 7:14PM

I agree that Cabrera and Incarnacion are the two most likely every-day players to miss out on key milestones if the 2020 season is a washout.

Pitching-wise, look at Justin Verlander. He just turned 37, and has a shot at 300 wins (he currently has 225), and 4,000 strikeouts (currently at 3,006). Killing the 2020 season is definitely a blow to his chances.

Steve

JoeBanzai · March 30, 2020 7:35PM

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

craig44 · March 30, 2020 8:12PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

serious as a heart attack.
check out the stats joe. his 94 and 95 seasons were incredible.

1994 27 CLE AL 106 480 412 90 147 35 2 36 101 9 6 58 71 .357 .438 .714 1.152 194 294 5 5 1 4 9 *7/D AS,MVP-3,SS
1995 28 CLE AL 143 631 546 121 173 52 1 50 126 5 2 73 80 .317 .401 .690 1.091 177 377 24 6 0 4 5 *7/D AS,MVP-

I am sure the formatting will be all wonky but you will get the nuts and bolts. in 1995 he had 50 doubles and 50 home runs during a shortened season. with a full season, he realistically could have been at 60 and 60. that has never been done. his rate stats were even better in 94 and he would have been right at those same numbers that season as well. would you not call those historic seasons? look at his slg percentages. he had 103 extra base hits in a shortened season. that is insane. I absolutely think had he been able to complete those two monster, historic seasons, he would be deserving of the hall of fame. at least as deserving as players like duke snider, Koufax, Addie Joss, Jim Rice etc.

orioles93 · March 30, 2020 8:31PM

Albert Belle had an incredible 10 year stretch. In my opinion he should be in the hall of fame already. I think his attitude and antics are what kept him out, not his play and stats.

SDSportsFan · March 30, 2020 9:35PM

@orioles93 said:
Albert Belle had an incredible 10 year stretch. In my opinion he should be in the hall of fame already. I think his attitude and antics are what kept him out, not his play and stats.

Modern-day Dick Allen.

Steve

sayheywyo · March 31, 2020 2:36AM

Tabe

I'll re-phrase elite to inclusive...……..

JoeBanzai · March 31, 2020 6:31AM

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

serious as a heart attack.
check out the stats joe. his 94 and 95 seasons were incredible.

1994 27 CLE AL 106 480 412 90 147 35 2 36 101 9 6 58 71 .357 .438 .714 1.152 194 294 5 5 1 4 9 *7/D AS,MVP-3,SS
1995 28 CLE AL 143 631 546 121 173 52 1 50 126 5 2 73 80 .317 .401 .690 1.091 177 377 24 6 0 4 5 *7/D AS,MVP-

I am sure the formatting will be all wonky but you will get the nuts and bolts. in 1995 he had 50 doubles and 50 home runs during a shortened season. with a full season, he realistically could have been at 60 and 60. that has never been done. his rate stats were even better in 94 and he would have been right at those same numbers that season as well. would you not call those historic seasons? look at his slg percentages. he had 103 extra base hits in a shortened season. that is insane. I absolutely think had he been able to complete those two monster, historic seasons, he would be deserving of the hall of fame. at least as deserving as players like duke snider, Koufax, Addie Joss, Jim Rice etc.

I know he was an unreal hitter, had six tremendous years.

too short of a career when you factor in his problems(from Wikipedia);

Belle was suspended in 1994 for using a corked bat, and gained further notoriety for sending teammate Jason Grimsley through the building's ceiling panel to break into the locked umpires' dressing room to retrieve his corked bat and substitute it with another teammate's bat, resulting in a seven-game suspension. The revelation of Belle's use of corked bats was given more emphasis when Cleveland teammate Omar Vizquel wrote in his autobiography that it would be naive to suggest otherwise and that "all of Albert's bats were corked." He was fined in 1996 for knocking down Brewers infielder Fernando Viña, who had blocked his way between bases.

Sports reporters resented Belle's refusal to grant interviews before a game. A profane outburst directed at a group of reporters in his team's dugout, including NBC Sports personality Hannah Storm, was widely reported during the 1995 World Series. He was unrepentant afterward: "The Indians wanted me to issue a statement of regret when the fine was announced, but I told them to take it out. I apologize for nothing."

Eventually, Belle routinely refused to speak with the media. "I don't get excited talking about myself", he explained. "Guys such as Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio and Steve Carlton did not interview, and it was no big deal. They were quiet. I am also quiet. I just want to concentrate on baseball. Why does everyone want to hear me talk, anyway?"

But the media did not ignore him. Buster Olney, then of The New York Times, would write about his outbursts as a Cleveland Indian:

It was a taken in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts... The Indians billed him $10,000 a year for the damage he caused in clubhouses on the road and at home, and tolerated his behavior only because he was an awesome slugger... He slurped coffee constantly and seemed to be on a perpetual caffeinated frenzy. Few escaped his wrath: on some days he would destroy the postgame buffet...launching plates into the shower... after one poor at-bat against Boston, he retreated to the visitors' clubhouse and took a bat to teammate Kenny Lofton's boombox. Belle preferred to have the clubhouse cold, below 60 degrees, and when one chilly teammate turned up the heat, Belle walked over, turned down the thermostat and smashed it with his bat. His nickname, thereafter, was "Mr. Freeze."

In 2001, following his retirement, the New York Daily News' columnist Bill Madden wrote:

Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Association when it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame.

In his first year of Hall of Fame eligibility (2006), he garnered only 7.7% of the baseball writers' votes, missing election by an extremely wide margin.[16] But his vote total was high enough to keep his name on the ballot for the following year. In 2007, however, he garnered only 19 votes (3.5%).

Belle has had a chilly relationship with the Indians franchise during his retirement. He declined to attend the 20th anniversary celebration of the 1995 World Series team and he declined to attend the ceremony when he was inducted into the Indians team Hall of Fame.

In October 1995, Belle's house in Euclid, Ohio was egged after turning away trick-or-treaters on Halloween. Belle chased one of the trick-or-treaters in his car. Belle was fined $100 for reckless operation of a vehicle. The guardian of the teenager sued Belle for $850,000 contending that Belle's car bumped into the teenager. The lawsuit was settled in 1997.

In 2006 Belle was sentenced to 90 days in jail and five years' probation after he admitted to stalking his former girlfriend.

On March 25, 2018, Belle was arrested in Scottsdale, Arizona and charged with indecent exposure and DUI. All charges were dismissed the following month.

HOF worthy? I think not. Chasing Trick-or-Treaters with his car! WTF?

craig44 · March 31, 2020 7:36AM

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

serious as a heart attack.
check out the stats joe. his 94 and 95 seasons were incredible.

1994 27 CLE AL 106 480 412 90 147 35 2 36 101 9 6 58 71 .357 .438 .714 1.152 194 294 5 5 1 4 9 *7/D AS,MVP-3,SS
1995 28 CLE AL 143 631 546 121 173 52 1 50 126 5 2 73 80 .317 .401 .690 1.091 177 377 24 6 0 4 5 *7/D AS,MVP-

I am sure the formatting will be all wonky but you will get the nuts and bolts. in 1995 he had 50 doubles and 50 home runs during a shortened season. with a full season, he realistically could have been at 60 and 60. that has never been done. his rate stats were even better in 94 and he would have been right at those same numbers that season as well. would you not call those historic seasons? look at his slg percentages. he had 103 extra base hits in a shortened season. that is insane. I absolutely think had he been able to complete those two monster, historic seasons, he would be deserving of the hall of fame. at least as deserving as players like duke snider, Koufax, Addie Joss, Jim Rice etc.

I know he was an unreal hitter, had six tremendous years.

too short of a career when you factor in his problems(from Wikipedia);

Belle was suspended in 1994 for using a corked bat, and gained further notoriety for sending teammate Jason Grimsley through the building's ceiling panel to break into the locked umpires' dressing room to retrieve his corked bat and substitute it with another teammate's bat, resulting in a seven-game suspension. The revelation of Belle's use of corked bats was given more emphasis when Cleveland teammate Omar Vizquel wrote in his autobiography that it would be naive to suggest otherwise and that "all of Albert's bats were corked." He was fined in 1996 for knocking down Brewers infielder Fernando Viña, who had blocked his way between bases.

Sports reporters resented Belle's refusal to grant interviews before a game. A profane outburst directed at a group of reporters in his team's dugout, including NBC Sports personality Hannah Storm, was widely reported during the 1995 World Series. He was unrepentant afterward: "The Indians wanted me to issue a statement of regret when the fine was announced, but I told them to take it out. I apologize for nothing."

Eventually, Belle routinely refused to speak with the media. "I don't get excited talking about myself", he explained. "Guys such as Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio and Steve Carlton did not interview, and it was no big deal. They were quiet. I am also quiet. I just want to concentrate on baseball. Why does everyone want to hear me talk, anyway?"

But the media did not ignore him. Buster Olney, then of The New York Times, would write about his outbursts as a Cleveland Indian:
It was a taken in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts... The Indians billed him $10,000 a year for the damage he caused in clubhouses on the road and at home, and tolerated his behavior only because he was an awesome slugger... He slurped coffee constantly and seemed to be on a perpetual caffeinated frenzy. Few escaped his wrath: on some days he would destroy the postgame buffet...launching plates into the shower... after one poor at-bat against Boston, he retreated to the visitors' clubhouse and took a bat to teammate Kenny Lofton's boombox. Belle preferred to have the clubhouse cold, below 60 degrees, and when one chilly teammate turned up the heat, Belle walked over, turned down the thermostat and smashed it with his bat. His nickname, thereafter, was "Mr. Freeze."
In 2001, following his retirement, the New York Daily News' columnist Bill Madden wrote:
Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Association when it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame.
In his first year of Hall of Fame eligibility (2006), he garnered only 7.7% of the baseball writers' votes, missing election by an extremely wide margin.[16] But his vote total was high enough to keep his name on the ballot for the following year. In 2007, however, he garnered only 19 votes (3.5%).

Belle has had a chilly relationship with the Indians franchise during his retirement. He declined to attend the 20th anniversary celebration of the 1995 World Series team and he declined to attend the ceremony when he was inducted into the Indians team Hall of Fame.

In October 1995, Belle's house in Euclid, Ohio was egged after turning away trick-or-treaters on Halloween. Belle chased one of the trick-or-treaters in his car. Belle was fined $100 for reckless operation of a vehicle. The guardian of the teenager sued Belle for $850,000 contending that Belle's car bumped into the teenager. The lawsuit was settled in 1997.

In 2006 Belle was sentenced to 90 days in jail and five years' probation after he admitted to stalking his former girlfriend.

On March 25, 2018, Belle was arrested in Scottsdale, Arizona and charged with indecent exposure and DUI. All charges were dismissed the following month.

HOF worthy? I think not. Chasing Trick-or-Treaters with his car! WTF?

I base my hof cases on a players body of work on the field. Namely, their statistics. I do not care if a player is a good guy, crazy in the head, chases trick or treaters or won't talk to the media. It is not relevant to me for this discussion.

It is not our job to play the morality police. If that were the case, what is the standard? There are many many many bad guys already in the hall. RAcists, thieves, philandere rs, cheaters and drunks. Do we remove them? If so, we would have a very small hall. For the hof, I really only care what happened between the lines. Between the lines, Belle was one of the dominant forces we have ever seen. He had two potentially historic seasons affected by matters beyond his control, a strike.

He also had to retire early due to injury. He seems a to be the offensive version of koufax.
A sure hofer. The opposite of a compiler. Who do you think was a better player, an Eddie murray, Dave Winfield type, or belle. Belle was the better player for sure, he just got hurt and couldn't hang on as long.

AFLfan · March 31, 2020 8:20AM

Pretty interesting topic and discussion here, guys. Please keep it rolling. I, for one, am enjoying it. Thanks!!

JoeBanzai · March 31, 2020 8:25AM

@craig44 said:

I base my hof cases on a players body of work on the field. Namely, their statistics. I do not care if a player is a good guy, crazy in the head, chases trick or treaters or won't talk to the media. It is not relevant to me for this discussion.

It is not our job to play the morality police. If that were the case, what is the standard? There are many many many bad guys already in the hall. RAcists, thieves, philandere rs, cheaters and drunks. Do we remove them? If so, we would have a very small hall. For the hof, I really only care what happened between the lines. Between the lines, Belle was one of the dominant forces we have ever seen. He had two potentially historic seasons affected by matters beyond his control, a strike.

He also had to retire early due to injury. He seems a to be the offensive version of koufax.
A sure hofer. The opposite of a compiler. Who do you think was a better player, an Eddie murray, Dave Winfield type, or belle. Belle was the better player for sure, he just got hurt and couldn't hang on as long.

Obviously this is not a HOF discussion. It may be a "better player" debate. Belle certainly had a nice 6667 plate appearances. Less than a lot of deserving guys who are not in, some were better hitters.

The HOF has five main requirements for consideration for induction and three of them have to do with sportsmanship and integrity, so when you say you don't care about the off field stuff, it's not pertinent to a HOF discussion.

There is no argument from me that Belle wasn't a tremendous hitter. Even if we ignore his idiotic clubhouse and off field behavior, he only played 10 full seasons, that counts against him. Corking his bats needs to be considered as well, he got caught cheating. His illegal bats could have helped him achieve his numbers, do you ignore that too?

If Tony Oliva, a tremendous hitter (131 OPS+) as well, isn't in, I don't want to see this guy in.

You guys who want Pete Rose, Belle and other D-Bags in are just going to have to start your own HOF. It's understood none/most of you don't care about sportsmanship and fair play, you don't have to. The voters also have their problems, no doubt, but hey are correct on Belle. Rose isn't even eligible, so I don't understand how anyone can say he should be in, he agreed to a ban.

The reason Belle isn't, and won't ever be, in is completely and totally Albert's fault. Sorry Al.

The HOF isn't perfect (Harold Baines etc), but it was not started as a "Hall of Statistical Achievers". I am also not going to debate guys like TY Cobb and his racism, 98% of the country was racist at the time, plus he probably hated everybody, so he wasn't really a racist.

Manny Ramirez was a FAR superior hitter than Belle. He's not getting in either.

Dick Allen was probably as good if not better too, but his shortish career hurts him as well.

craig44 · March 31, 2020 1:09PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I base my hof cases on a players body of work on the field. Namely, their statistics. I do not care if a player is a good guy, crazy in the head, chases trick or treaters or won't talk to the media. It is not relevant to me for this discussion.

It is not our job to play the morality police. If that were the case, what is the standard? There are many many many bad guys already in the hall. RAcists, thieves, philandere rs, cheaters and drunks. Do we remove them? If so, we would have a very small hall. For the hof, I really only care what happened between the lines. Between the lines, Belle was one of the dominant forces we have ever seen. He had two potentially historic seasons affected by matters beyond his control, a strike.

He also had to retire early due to injury. He seems a to be the offensive version of koufax.
A sure hofer. The opposite of a compiler. Who do you think was a better player, an Eddie murray, Dave Winfield type, or belle. Belle was the better player for sure, he just got hurt and couldn't hang on as long.

Obviously this is not a HOF discussion. It may be a "better player" debate. Belle certainly had a nice 6667 plate appearances. Less than a lot of deserving guys who are not in, some were better hitters.

The HOF has five main requirements for consideration for induction and three of them have to do with sportsmanship and integrity, so when you say you don't care about the off field stuff, it's not pertinent to a HOF discussion.

There is no argument from me that Belle wasn't a tremendous hitter. Even if we ignore his idiotic clubhouse and off field behavior, he only played 10 full seasons, that counts against him. Corking his bats needs to be considered as well, he got caught cheating. His illegal bats could have helped him achieve his numbers, do you ignore that too?

If Tony Oliva, a tremendous hitter (131 OPS+) as well, isn't in, I don't want to see this guy in.

You guys who want Pete Rose, Belle and other D-Bags in are just going to have to start your own HOF. It's understood none/most of you don't care about sportsmanship and fair play, you don't have to. The voters also have their problems, no doubt, but hey are correct on Belle. Rose isn't even eligible, so I don't understand how anyone can say he should be in, he agreed to a ban.

The reason Belle isn't, and won't ever be, in is completely and totally Albert's fault. Sorry Al.

The HOF isn't perfect (Harold Baines etc), but it was not started as a "Hall of Statistical Achievers". I am also not going to debate guys like TY Cobb and his racism, 98% of the country was racist at the time, plus he probably hated everybody, so he wasn't really a racist.

Manny Ramirez was a FAR superior hitter than Belle. He's not getting in either.

Dick Allen was probably as good if not better too, but his shortish career hurts him as well.

alright, there is a lot to unpack here.
1. there are quite a few hofers who had short careers: Koufax, Kiner, Joss, Puckett and Dizzy Dean all come to mind. Do these players not deserve induction because there are worthy players on the outside who played more? How much does a player have to play to have played "enough" to get into your hof? what is the standard?
2. the hof may have those three requirements for sportsmanship and integrity, but have they ever really been followed? Maybe we should say they are followed only when we want to keep some players out because they didnt display integrity and sportsmanship in the correct way. If you are going to use this clause to keep some players out because we dont like their specific fault (ie. gambling, PED etc) then we need to be consistent across the board. we need to make sure that Mantle, Ruth, Speaker, Alexander, Anson, Cepeda, Molitor, Raines, Ford, Perry, Drysdale, Mays, Aaron, Schmidt, Ford, and a host of others need to be removed due to the integrity clause. you know, consistency and all...

As far as bat corking, couldnt care less and the writers couldnt either. lots of players have done this, including hofers. see, Ruth, Babe. Mantle, Mickey. thats just two. look at the pitchers who have cheated in various ways: Ford, Drysdale, Perry, Sutton. if these have been voted in, i dont see a problem with Belle's corked bat.
Belle was a more dominant offensive force than Oliva. please tell me we dont have to debate that.

now, seriously, do you really think Cepeda or Molitor or Rizzuto were better players than belle? to think so would just be obtuse.

JoeBanzai · March 31, 2020 3:17PM

Lots of players had short careers.

Let's dismiss the pitchers right away. I'm not interested in going back to Addie Joss, even though he has the lowest WHIP in the history of the game. I'm also not going to defend Koufax. I think he's over rated and gets in because he was on a great team and pitched in a pitchers park.

Kiner was superior to Belle. Ralph won the Home Run title for 7 straight years, his OPS+ was also higher.

Puckett and Oliva were NOT more "dominant offensive forces" than Al, and I never said they were, neither had the power Belle had. However they were almost as good of hitters, and better players.

I really get tired of having to point out to people that hitting isn't the only thing involved in being a baseball player. Better hitter does not equal better player.

Puckett was 10 times the player Albert could hope to be in his dreams. He was a leader, a huge factor in the Minnesota Twins winning 2 WS. Belle had ONE advantage over Puckett; SLG. Puckett was better in every aspect of the game. They were about equal in OB%.

Puckett won 6 Gold Gloves and played Center Field, Oliva won 3 batting titles and led the league in hits 5 times. I'll GLADLY take either of those guys over Belle on my team and in my HOF. Kiner would be a no brainer.

When did "Mantle, Ruth, Speaker, Alexander, Anson, Cepeda, Molitor, Raines, Ford, Perry, Drysdale, Mays, Aaron, Schmidt, Ford, and a host of others" get caught and suspended for cheating? I missed that. Nobody's talking about taking people out of the HOF here, why bring that up?

YES Cepeda, Molitor and Rizzuto were better players. Molitor had 12,167 at bats and was a better fielder and baserunner than Al. Cepeda had 2000 more at bats that Al, but was NOT quite as good a hitter. Rizzuto was a shortstop bringing him up in the comparison is a stretch, but yes he was a better, more valuable player than Al.

What's obtuse here is to ignore three or four or more factors and make it all about hitting. Belle got virtually NO support for the HOF. The voters got it right.

It's not the Hall of "Dominant Offensive Force". Short career, "dominant offensive force", cheater, complete lunatic to everyone (including the poor trick-or-treaters, shame on you Al) just doesn't add up to the HOF.

cecropiamoth · March 31, 2020 3:53PM

My question --

If Cano does string together a few more good seasons does his failure of a drug test for a diuretic keep him out of the Hall? Was he using it to mask PEDs? Why did the Dominican physician prescribe it to him?

Jeff

Tabe · March 31, 2020 3:54PM

Uh...Gaylord Perry got suspended for cheating. Speaker most likely bet on games and was suspended for beating up an umpire. Cap Anson was behind the color barrier. Mantle (post-career) was once banned from baseball entirely. Raines was named in the Pittsburgh drug trials but escaped punishment. Mays (post-career) was once banned from baseball entirely.

It's not the Hall of Dominant Offensive Force but, let's be honest, that's why half the guys are in there. Ted Williams wasn't a complete player. Edgar Martinez wasn't a complete player. Harold Baines wasn't a complete player. And many, many others like them. Albert Belle averaged 40 homers and 130 RBI every 162 games. You know who else has done that? Babe Ruth. Belle isn't in the same category as somebody like Koufax because: A) He was great for 10 years, not 5; He didn't play in parks that were historically slanted in his favor.

Yes, there's more to baseball than offense but the reality is that defense is significantly less important. It just is. And Belle was historically great for 10 straight years. He was a jerk but so were plenty of other guys. Belle belongs, no question about it.

craig44 · March 31, 2020 4:00PM

this^^^^^^^

Tabe · March 31, 2020 4:02PM

@cecropiamoth said:
My question --

If Cano does string together a few more good seasons does his failure of a drug test for a diuretic keep him out of the Hall? Was he using it to mask PEDs? Why did the Dominican physician prescribe it to him?

Jeff

If Cano - and, yeah, I would bet he was masking PEDs - gets in, Clemens and Bonds better be there before him.

craig44 · March 31, 2020 4:22PM

offense is more important than defense. the difference between being a superb right fielder and an average one is not going to amount to all that much. the average fielder will get to 95 percent of the balls the great fielder will get to. that simply cannot outweigh the value a historically great offensive player brings to a team.

as far as those other guys being better than belle, come on. you know better than that. its crazy talk. in exactly what way was molitor better? because he had lots of plate appearances? you say he was a better baserunner? well, he stole at a rate lower than 80% that means his sb's were actually a net detriment to his team. he should have just stayed on first. he ran into too many outs. was he a better defender? sure. does it outweigh the offence a historically great offensive player adds? nope.

Cepeda? have you actually looked at the stats? come on.

Rizzuto? It is here that I have finally figured out you have been kidding the whole time. scooter is not even on the same playing field as Albert. not even close.

you are also missing the fact that when you can place a monster like belle in the middle of a lineup, it helps all those around them greatly. very few players in the history of the game have had that kind of effect as Belle. no, he didnt have the longevity of some, but the quality of play was top tier.

LarkinCollector · March 31, 2020 4:26PM

Just get rid of the HOF entirely (not just baseball). Honestly, what purpose does it serve? The bottom 10-20% don't belong, while there are many who do who are excluded due to nothing more than writers bias and/or playing in the wrong town.

Does it matter for the one's who playing performance is obvious? No, all it does is validate ones opinions on the marginal. IDGAF anymore.

craig44 · March 31, 2020 4:36PM

But if we got rid of the hof, what would we have to bicker about???

JoeBanzai · March 31, 2020 5:31PM

@Tabe said:
Uh...Gaylord Perry got suspended for cheating. Speaker most likely bet on games and was suspended for beating up an umpire. Cap Anson was behind the color barrier. Mantle (post-career) was once banned from baseball entirely. Raines was named in the Pittsburgh drug trials but escaped punishment. Mays (post-career) was once banned from baseball entirely.

It's not the Hall of Dominant Offensive Force but, let's be honest, that's why half the guys are in there. Ted Williams wasn't a complete player. Edgar Martinez wasn't a complete player. Harold Baines wasn't a complete player. And many, many others like them. Albert Belle averaged 40 homers and 130 RBI every 162 games. You know who else has done that? Babe Ruth. Belle isn't in the same category as somebody like Koufax because: A) He was great for 10 years, not 5; He didn't play in parks that were historically slanted in his favor.

Yes, there's more to baseball than offense but the reality is that defense is significantly less important. It just is. And Belle was historically great for 10 straight years. He was a jerk but so were plenty of other guys. Belle belongs, no question about it.

You got me on Perry. Didn't know about Speaker either. I'm not sure Perry should be in.

Mantle and Mays post career stuff is well known and really quite the reach. Hard to see where working as a greeter for a casino was a big problem, but they quit those jobs when informed of the consequences.

Ted Williams had his problems as well, spitting on the field toward people and I think actually hitting foul balls at fans. Serving in two wars sort of makes up for it though.

Edgar is a good example here, but while his OPS+ numbers are similar to Al's he played MUCH longer.

The "per 162 games" stat is nice but he came close to 162 games only 5 times, and he wasn't a pitcher.

I just don't think he belongs, some others that are in probably don't.

JoeBanzai · March 31, 2020 5:32PM

@craig44 said:
offense is more important than defense. the difference between being a superb right fielder and an average one is not going to amount to all that much. the average fielder will get to 95 percent of the balls the great fielder will get to. that simply cannot outweigh the value a historically great offensive player brings to a team.

as far as those other guys being better than belle, come on. you know better than that. its crazy talk. in exactly what way was molitor better? because he had lots of plate appearances? you say he was a better baserunner? well, he stole at a rate lower than 80% that means his sb's were actually a net detriment to his team. he should have just stayed on first. he ran into too many outs. was he a better defender? sure. does it outweigh the offence a historically great offensive player adds? nope.

Cepeda? have you actually looked at the stats? come on.

Rizzuto? It is here that I have finally figured out you have been kidding the whole time. scooter is not even on the same playing field as Albert. not even close.

you are also missing the fact that when you can place a monster like belle in the middle of a lineup, it helps all those around them greatly. very few players in the history of the game have had that kind of effect as Belle. no, he didnt have the longevity of some, but the quality of play was top tier.

You might have me on Cepeda.

Molitor helped his teams at a high level for 21 years, Belle for 10-11. Baserunning is also about more than just steal percentage.

Belle was a great one dimensional slugger for 10 seasons, a couple of them were pretty amazing. If he got in, I wouldn't cry about it.

Oliva and Allen should go in before him though.

Rizzuto shouldn't be compared to Belle, he's a whole different type of player, playing a completely different position. Very few Left Fielders can play defense. Very few shortstops are good hitters. What do we do kick all the SS out of the HOF?

I'm not missing any facts here. I agree he was a great slugger. PLENTY of guys were great sluggers for a few years.

Whether you like it or not, he's not in and he's not getting in. I also understand that you don't care about integrity or sportsmanship. This guy was a lunatic. Smashing team mates radios, destroying the thermostat in the clubhouse because he wasn't happy with the temperature.

As Bugs Bunny (a first ballot HOFer) would say; "What a maroon".

If you chase the children on Halloween, in the HOF you won't be seen! ;-)

Tabe · March 31, 2020 10:01PM

@JoeBanzai said:

The "per 162 games" stat is nice but he came close to 162 games only 5 times, and he wasn't a pitcher.

That's more than a little unfair. He played 153 or more 6 times. Two other years see shortened by labor strife, including one where he played 143 out of 144 possible and another where he played 94% of the team's games. His other two full seasons he missed time, yep. One was his rookie year, the other he was playing through the injury that caused his retirement. He was an everyday player who played every day - basically 97-98% of possible games eight straight years. And dominated while doing it.

estang · April 1, 2020 5:46AM

Getting into the HOF is a popularity contest for most players.

Belle wasn’t popular and considered a jerk by many.

He garnered a HOF vote on only 3% of the ballots in 2007; his last year eligible.

Case closed.

JoeBanzai · April 1, 2020 6:30AM

I only like the "162 game" statistic when comparing players with similar length careers.

Belle did not miss much time. I wasn't saying that he did. What I was referring to was he actually played 128 games per season, not 162. It doesn't matter if it was his rookie year or he was hurt or if there was a shortened season or two.

Al actually only hit over 40 HR in a season 3 times.

If you look at most sluggers they have their best production from age 24-34.

Killebrew's best 12 year stretch (includes 2 major injuries) he averaged 40 HR per year and 44 HR per 162 games. When you add "old man years" it hurts the 162 game number a LOT.

Belle retired after his first "bad" year.

He actually averaged 32 HR per season, which is very, very good. If you look at other great players' best 12 year peaks, Albert is not in the Babe Ruth zone.

If all we look at is OPS, he's number 27 all-time. Phenomenal!

But That's not all the voters looked at.

craig44 · April 1, 2020 7:28AM

Slugging is not only about home runs. It's about extra base hits. Belle had a strike shortened season where he had 103 extra base hits. There have only been 5 seasons in the history of baseball where a player had more. Had the season not been shortened, he probably would have the record. He was also on the same pace during 1994, but the season was cut short.

Look, I am not a Belle fan. At all. But he was a historica lly great offensive force whose career was cut short due to injury. He absolutely belongs in the hof and is better than many already inducted

JoeBanzai · April 1, 2020 8:36AM

You are correct about his offense, but you are focusing on only that one aspect, and you are over rating him there.

He led the league once in doubles, once in HR and once in OPS/OPS+. Led twice in SLG. He also led in RBI 3 times, but that has a lot to do with his team mates. He was a Total Bases beast. I am one of the few guys that puts an importance in that. He led the league 3 times in that category.

He was a "a historically great offensive force"_ for 3, maybe 4 years_.

He could/should have won the MVP in 1995.

He only played for about 9 years and he was a complete lunatic. Whether you agree with these as valid reasons to keep him out or not they DO hurt him.

He simply does NOT belong in the HOF by their standards. Just because some mistakes have been made in the past is not a reason to make another.

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

He has the time required (barely) and the ability (no doubt). Contributions to the team? On the field, yes, but certainly not off (I know, you don't care).

He fails TOTALLY in integrity, sportsmanship and character. As a voter following these guidelines, you simply cannot vote him in.

His name (originally anyway) is almost exactly the same as mine, so I followed his career closely and as much as I would like Joey Belle in the HOF, he doesn't qualify.

JoeBanzai · April 1, 2020 9:22AM

@AFLfan said:
Pretty interesting topic and discussion here, guys. Please keep it rolling. I, for one, am enjoying it. Thanks!!

Glad you enjoyed it, we seem to be getting repetitive, so I will be moving on.

Tabe · April 1, 2020 1:48PM

@JoeBanzai said:
Belle did not miss much time. I wasn't saying that he did. What I was referring to was he actually played 128 games per season, not 162. It doesn't matter if it was his rookie year or he was hurt or if there was a shortened season or two.

That's wildly unfair. Punishing a guy for not playing in games that weren't played at all? Makes perfect sense. That's like downgrading Ted Williams for not playing in games in 1944.

He played in 1468 games in his 10 years as a full-time player. 147 games a year. And that's NOT counting the fact he lost almost 70 games to strikes. Fact is, once he went full-time - and, no, we're not going to punish a guy for not being a full-time player when he's 22 - he played in 95% of his team's games.

Al actually only hit over 40 HR in a season 3 times.

Yep. But there's absolutely no doubt he'd have done it in 1994 as well if they hadn't chopped 49 games off the season.

He also had seasons of 37, 38 and 34 homers, along with the strike-shortened season where he hit 36.

If you look at most sluggers they have their best production from age 24-34.

Yep.

Killebrew's best 12 year stretch (includes 2 major injuries) he averaged 40 HR per year and 44 HR per 162 games. When you add "old man years" it hurts the 162 game number a LOT.

Belle retired after his first "bad" year.

Yep. And he still put up more good years than your guy Ralph Kiner did. Kiner retired younger, played fewer games, hit fewer homers, and had more "off" years. And he didn't have a 300ft fence to shoot for either.

He actually averaged 32 HR per season, which is very, very good. If you look at other great players' best 12 year peaks, Albert is not in the Babe Ruth zone.

He averaged 37 as a full-time player. And, again, that's punishing him for two years that were cut short significantly.

If all we look at is OPS, he's number 27 all-time. Phenomenal!

But That's not all the voters looked at.

Fact is, voters are willing to ignore that guys are jerks depending on the guy. Jim Rice is in, Yaz is in, Rogers Hornsby is in, John McGraw is in, etc. Voters are willing to ignore short careers for some guys. Kirby Puckett is in, Sandy Koufax is in, Addie Joss is in.

Belle put up monstrous numbers for a decade. The HOF says you gotta play 10 years. He did. He belongs, without question.

DIMEMAN · April 1, 2020 3:46PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

I agree! That is so far down on the things I care about list...….that it doesn't even MAKE the list!

pocketpiececommems · April 1, 2020 7:21PM

I doubt it if the Doctors and nurses working in ER care at this point

wrestlingcardking · April 1, 2020 8:27PM

I think that Yadier Molina is a Hall of Famer but I do think that some people would like to see him have more counting stats to build his case. He is a the true definition of what a catcher should be, where defense should have significant weight compared to other positions on the field. He has a few championships rings, but definitely not the offense that some want to see.

Tabe · April 2, 2020 12:16AM

Good enough offensively and elite defense? Yeah, he's a HOFer.

craig44 · April 2, 2020 8:17AM

I would say yes as well for Yadier. Catcher is sort of an outlier as the defensive part of the game is so taxing that offense will suffer. the same may be true to a lesser degree for shortstop.

craig44 · April 2, 2020 8:19AM

@DIMEMAN said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@craig44 said:

I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

You can't be serious about this!

I agree! That is so far down on the things I care about list...….that it doesn't even MAKE the list!

In the big scheme of things, no one really cares about baseball discussions. it is all just an escape from everyday life and at this point in life, boredom

BLUEJAYWAY · April 3, 2020 8:19PM

Some time ago, here I believe, someone posted a question:What if a sport totally stopped never to be played again? What effect would this have on card values? Thought that was an interesting question. Can't remember the comments though. Probably wouldn't affect retired players card values.

Estil · April 7, 2020 8:55AM

On a related note, the 1994 strike most definitely cost Don Mattingly his HOF chances. Had he won or at least made the World Series in that year or stuck around one more year to win the 1996 championship, he would've for sure made the HOF. The only other player off the top of my head I can think of that came literally one season short of the HOF was Vida Pinson (had he stuck around another year he probably would've made 3000 hits, which is traditionally an automatic HOF bid, first ballot in most cases).

Estil · April 7, 2020 8:59AM

@craig44 said:
I also believe it has held Albert belle out of the hall. He would have had 2 all time seasons if not for the missed time.

I doubt the Dennis Rodman of baseball (as I liked to call Joey at the time; hee hee) ever had a chance at the HOF.

Estil · April 7, 2020 9:02AM

@Tabe said:
Fact is, voters are willing to ignore that guys are jerks depending on the guy. Jim Rice is in, Yaz is in, Rogers Hornsby is in, John McGraw is in, etc. Voters are willing to ignore short careers for some guys. Kirby Puckett is in, Sandy Koufax is in, Addie Joss is in.

Yet the Mr October of starting pitchers, Curt Schilling has still be snubbed for several years just because they don't like his political views. Which have nothing to do with and have ZERO relevance to baseball.

doubledragon · April 7, 2020 12:34PM

They should start listing player's sins on their hall of fame plaques. If Albert Belle gets in, his plaque should say:

BA: .295
HR: 381
RBI: 1239
SLG: .564
5x All star
5x Silver Slugger

Was mean to Hannah Storm.
Attempted a corked bat heist by going in through the roof like Ethan Hunt.

LarkinCollector · April 7, 2020 3:32PM

I'm still just shocked that Judge could even be mentioned in a "cusp of the HOF" thread with one full season under his belt by age 28.

IF '20 MLB season is wiped out what players on the cusp of the HOF could be affected most ?.........

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