Just received back from NGC my Bashlow Restrikes. All 1cents graded MS69 TOP POP and 50cents graded MS68 TOP POP Goldine and Bronze. The value I can only speculate since I can not find a comparable set of this high quality.
@Bootjack said:
Just received back from NGC my Bashlow Restrikes. All 1cents graded MS69 TOP POP and 50cents graded MS68 TOP POP Goldine and Bronze. The value I can only speculate since I can not find a comparable set of this high quality.
The die trails certainly don't fit the Red Book's description: "They have very little numismatic value".
I was very interested in this set but it just sold for $7,200 which was too high for me. There was a nice premium on having the full set of six as i've seen individual pieces in these holders sell for less in the past.
Circa 1962 Set of Six Bashlow Second Restrike Trial Pieces In the Original Plastic Holders
Circa 1962 Set of Six Bashlow Confederate Cent Second Restrike Trial Pieces. Bertram B861-211 through B861-216. Robert Bashlow, the New York coin dealer, acquired the original Confederate cent dies in 1961, and had the Philadelphia firm of August C. Frank Company produce transfer dies. These so-called trial pieces are each on thick planchets. Peter Bertram discusses the Bashlow pieces in detail in his 2016 reference, Confederate Numismatica.
Each piece measures 19.1 to 19.2 mm. The six pieces are composed of red fiber (1.1 grams), aluminum (2.1 grams), zinc (5.4 grams), tin (5.5 grams), nickel-silver (6.2 grams), and lead (8.6 grams) according to the original three-piece lucite holders that house each piece. According to Peter Bertram, these are the original holders of issue from Bashlow. While the holders note that 50 sets were issued, it is doubtful that more than a handful of sets have survived in these holders.
The red fiber and lead pieces are housed in unrecorded red holders, the aluminum piece is housed in an unrecorded blue holder, the zinc piece is housed in an unrecorded green holder, the tin piece is housed in a black holder, and the nickel-silver piece is housed in a white holder.
These uncertified pieces are Uncirculated, essentially as issued, although with slight toning. Each piece is fully lustrous as struck with no evidence of later problems or imperfections. While these pieces are uncertified, for reference, NGC has certified six red fiber, 10 aluminum, three zinc, eight tin, seven nickel-silver, and five lead. These sets are rarely encountered. We have only handled one other set in the past 27 years.
A 50c Bashlow restrike set of Silver, Goldine and Bronze graded MS 67 sold on Heritage Auctions this past week for $4650! Red book needs to minimizing their significance.
@Bootjack said:
A set of trial restrikes similar to the ones above uncertified sold on Heritage Auctions for $7200 for the six coins.
The set I posted above is the set that was sold by Heritage for $7.2K. I didn’t think it would go so high but I’m impressed by how much these are worth now.
@savoyspecial said:
i tend to agree, though perhaps not as strongly as the OP
a while back NEN had a set of Bashlows in a multi holder (NGC) that looked pretty nifty:
(Image)
seems like, from memory, they were asking about $1k for it
This nicely matched set that New England offered brings back good memories as I originally made that set back in 2008 IIRC (and the oversized multiple slab only cost about +$30 at the time).
And while we are on the subject, don't forget the British Bashlow "London Restrikes" from new Pinches dies as they tend to bring a pretty tuppence or two (and may be hiding in plain sight as well).
Some sections of “The Red Book” get revised every decade or so. This part probably has not been fixed since the ‘60s.
These pieces do pose a bit of a problem. They do resemble the rare and expensive stuff, but they are not quite there. Unless they added photos of them, it would hard to explain to a layman exactly what they are.
There is also the issue of space. With some sections of the book becoming inadequate, like the American Silver Eagle area, because of the need to cover all of the “excessive issues” (I felt like using the “J word” but didn’t) the mint is issuing every year there is barely room to cover what matters.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Zoins said:
The set I posted above is the set that was sold by Heritage for $7.2K. I didn’t think it would go so high but I’m impressed by how much these are worth now.
I have the tin version, in the Capitol Plastics holder, although I think mine is red. The next time I come across it I will take some pics.
About 20 years ago I was picking up the Bashlow cents on eBay when they were reasonably priced ($12-$25 or so). I got several of the bronze, one nice goldmine, and I never did fund a silver that I liked. I guess I will have to pay up for that one some day,
In my searches I came across a tin trial strike, which I won it for $36 - about twice what I was paying for the bronze ones.
Based on nothing but personal speculation, I don't think the trial pieces were necessarily sold as a set originally. I suspect that you could buy one, some, or all according to your preference. But that hammer price for the "set" is amazing. I'll have to move my tin example to an undisclosed safe location once I come across it.
And while we are on the subject, don't forget the British Bashlow "London Restrikes" from new Pinches dies as they tend to bring a pretty tuppence or two (and may be hiding in plain sight as well).
I've never heard of these. I will do some Googling, but does anyone have the skinny on them?
Maybe the time has come for there to be volumes to the Red Book. And I suppose that is happening to some extent ... With the recent publications of books related to various series. I am less concerned about re-strikes such as the coins that are the subject of this threat over those coins that for whatever reason have been excluded entirely... The 1971-s type Ike proof is probably one or the rarest proof coins of the 20th century... Well perhaps of any century... but yet there still is no reference despite knowledge of the existence of this coin. Sad and there are simply no excuses for the continuous oversight in failing to recognize this rarity.
And not to make this worse, but this is just one example and a significant example.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Lovett Cent; A Confederate Story is a great book to read regarding all aspects of these coins and the people behind them. Very interesting reading.
These coins are much more interesting then many of the coins in the RedBook.
I wonder if this piece was horribly mutilated by the prongs, like that 1792 white metal pattern watchamacallit?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
A number of these incased in the original blue plastic have sold for around 1800. If you send them off to NGC for individual certification for a six coins for around $200 you’ll probably get a good deal more.
@Bootjack said:
Just received back from NGC my Bashlow Restrikes. All 1cents graded MS69 TOP POP and 50cents graded MS68 TOP POP Goldine and Bronze. The value I can only speculate since I can not find a comparable set of this high quality.
These are amazing grades so I looked them up in the NGC census to see if it's possible to estimate value.
It seems like all your pieces are tied for TOP POP except for the half dollar silver, of which 6 exist one grade higher in MS69. The rarest top pop is the bronze half dollar, of which only 1 more exists in the top grade. Given this, it's possible to put a value on your set if you can find past prices for comparable grades.
@Bootjack said:
A 50c Bashlow restrike set of Silver, Goldine and Bronze graded MS 67 sold on Heritage Auctions this past week for $4650! Red book needs to minimizing their significance.
"numismatic value" doesn't have to mean "monetary value"
When a Chinese company makes transfer dies from a Brashlow coin and mints a few thousand of them, should Redbook acknowledge those also?
This is not to say that the Brashlow coins can't be collected and enjoyed. But they are a copy (counterfeit?) made from modern dies.
The text of the Red Book's section on Confederate cents has changed --- substantially --- a couple times in the past three or four years. Take a gander at the latest edition for the newest information.
@Bootjack said:
A 50c Bashlow restrike set of Silver, Goldine and Bronze graded MS 67 sold on Heritage Auctions this past week for $4650! Red book needs to minimizing their significance.
"numismatic value" doesn't have to mean "monetary value"
When a Chinese company makes transfer dies from a Brashlow coin and mints a few thousand of them, should Redbook acknowledge those also?
This is not to say that the Brashlow coins can't be collected and enjoyed. But they are a copy (counterfeit?) made from modern dies.
The hobby has different tolerances for transfer dies made from dies and coins. The dies are no longer available so only coins can be done now. The process using transfer dies from original dies is likely using the same process as making a working die from a master die, with the main difference being that the dies being cancelled.
As for modern copy dies, there’s no need to look further than the Smithsonian for these. It doesn’t appear the Smithsonian copies have affected the prices for the Bashlow/Frank or Haseltine restrikes. Do the recent Red Book updates acknowledge the Smithsonian copies?
Thanks Zion’s for the info! These coins are certainly not counterfeit. Even the authors in “ The Lovett Cent” call them copies. There are numerous fakes. To purist I’m sure these aren’t appealing. The monetary value is increasing exponentially and the purists can just sit around and watch or get on board and enjoy the ride.
@Bootjack said:
Thanks Zion’s for the info! These coins are certainly not counterfeit. Even the authors in “ The Lovett Cent” call them copies. There are numerous fakes. To purist I’m sure these aren’t appealing. The monetary value is increasing exponentially and the purists can just sit around and watch or get on board and enjoy the ride.
copy/fake/counterfeit Really depends on the eye of the beholder. I know what RogerB would say.
@Bootjack said:
Thanks Zion’s for the info! These coins are certainly not counterfeit. Even the authors in “ The Lovett Cent” call them copies. There are numerous fakes. To purist I’m sure these aren’t appealing. The monetary value is increasing exponentially and the purists can just sit around and watch or get on board and enjoy the ride.
copy/fake/counterfeit Really depends on the eye of the beholder. I know what RogerB would say.
They are also called restrike and collectible. As you say, it depends on the eye of the beholder. Some don't even like the original 12 Lovett pieces which have sold for 6 figures. Roger has an opinion and is one of many. What's telling is the prices people are willing to pay for these.
Probably the biggest change since @ambro51 's original post is that PCGS grades these now.
Comments
Just received back from NGC my Bashlow Restrikes. All 1cents graded MS69 TOP POP and 50cents graded MS68 TOP POP Goldine and Bronze. The value I can only speculate since I can not find a comparable set of this high quality.
Nice looking set!
Congrats! Those grades are amazing!
The die trails certainly don't fit the Red Book's description: "They have very little numismatic value".
I was very interested in this set but it just sold for $7,200 which was too high for me. There was a nice premium on having the full set of six as i've seen individual pieces in these holders sell for less in the past.
Circa 1962 Set of Six Bashlow Second Restrike Trial Pieces
A 50c Bashlow restrike set of Silver, Goldine and Bronze graded MS 67 sold on Heritage Auctions this past week for $4650! Red book needs to minimizing their significance.
Correction: stop minimizing their significance.
A set of trial restrikes similar to the ones above uncertified sold on Heritage Auctions for $7200 for the six coins.
The set I posted above is the set that was sold by Heritage for $7.2K. I didn’t think it would go so high but I’m impressed by how much these are worth now.
This nicely matched set that New England offered brings back good memories as I originally made that set back in 2008 IIRC (and the oversized multiple slab only cost about +$30 at the time).
And while we are on the subject, don't forget the British Bashlow "London Restrikes" from new Pinches dies as they tend to bring a pretty tuppence or two (and may be hiding in plain sight as well).
Some sections of “The Red Book” get revised every decade or so. This part probably has not been fixed since the ‘60s.
These pieces do pose a bit of a problem. They do resemble the rare and expensive stuff, but they are not quite there. Unless they added photos of them, it would hard to explain to a layman exactly what they are.
There is also the issue of space. With some sections of the book becoming inadequate, like the American Silver Eagle area, because of the need to cover all of the “excessive issues” (I felt like using the “J word” but didn’t) the mint is issuing every year there is barely room to cover what matters.
I have the tin version, in the Capitol Plastics holder, although I think mine is red. The next time I come across it I will take some pics.
About 20 years ago I was picking up the Bashlow cents on eBay when they were reasonably priced ($12-$25 or so). I got several of the bronze, one nice goldmine, and I never did fund a silver that I liked. I guess I will have to pay up for that one some day,
In my searches I came across a tin trial strike, which I won it for $36 - about twice what I was paying for the bronze ones.
Based on nothing but personal speculation, I don't think the trial pieces were necessarily sold as a set originally. I suspect that you could buy one, some, or all according to your preference. But that hammer price for the "set" is amazing. I'll have to move my tin example to an undisclosed safe location once I come across it.
I've never heard of these. I will do some Googling, but does anyone have the skinny on them?
Maybe the time has come for there to be volumes to the Red Book. And I suppose that is happening to some extent ... With the recent publications of books related to various series. I am less concerned about re-strikes such as the coins that are the subject of this threat over those coins that for whatever reason have been excluded entirely... The 1971-s type Ike proof is probably one or the rarest proof coins of the 20th century... Well perhaps of any century... but yet there still is no reference despite knowledge of the existence of this coin. Sad and there are simply no excuses for the continuous oversight in failing to recognize this rarity.
And not to make this worse, but this is just one example and a significant example.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Lovett Cent; A Confederate Story is a great book to read regarding all aspects of these coins and the people behind them. Very interesting reading.
These coins are much more interesting then many of the coins in the RedBook.
I wonder if this piece was horribly mutilated by the prongs, like that 1792 white metal pattern watchamacallit?
Alex Pancheco of Tipsico Coin sold the following set for $1,800 last September (2019).
A number of these incased in the original blue plastic have sold for around 1800. If you send them off to NGC for individual certification for a six coins for around $200 you’ll probably get a good deal more.
Any reason you chose NGC for these? Did you get PhotoVision photos?
NGC has done more of these Bashlow Restrikes then PCGS. I got photos of them but I don’t think they are Photovision.
These are amazing grades so I looked them up in the NGC census to see if it's possible to estimate value.
It seems like all your pieces are tied for TOP POP except for the half dollar silver, of which 6 exist one grade higher in MS69. The rarest top pop is the bronze half dollar, of which only 1 more exists in the top grade. Given this, it's possible to put a value on your set if you can find past prices for comparable grades.
The following are for the top pops:
Here's your silver indicating 6 higher.
"numismatic value" doesn't have to mean "monetary value"
When a Chinese company makes transfer dies from a Brashlow coin and mints a few thousand of them, should Redbook acknowledge those also?
This is not to say that the Brashlow coins can't be collected and enjoyed. But they are a copy (counterfeit?) made from modern dies.
Good morning, all,
The text of the Red Book's section on Confederate cents has changed --- substantially --- a couple times in the past three or four years. Take a gander at the latest edition for the newest information.
The hobby has different tolerances for transfer dies made from dies and coins. The dies are no longer available so only coins can be done now. The process using transfer dies from original dies is likely using the same process as making a working die from a master die, with the main difference being that the dies being cancelled.
As for modern copy dies, there’s no need to look further than the Smithsonian for these. It doesn’t appear the Smithsonian copies have affected the prices for the Bashlow/Frank or Haseltine restrikes. Do the recent Red Book updates acknowledge the Smithsonian copies?
Thanks Zion’s for the info! These coins are certainly not counterfeit. Even the authors in “ The Lovett Cent” call them copies. There are numerous fakes. To purist I’m sure these aren’t appealing. The monetary value is increasing exponentially and the purists can just sit around and watch or get on board and enjoy the ride.
just sticking this link to the Bashlow bar thread onto this interesting discussion
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12413398
I have one * edit* two of these chunky weapons, Do you think NGC will slab it?
copy/fake/counterfeit Really depends on the eye of the beholder. I know what RogerB would say.
They are also called restrike and collectible. As you say, it depends on the eye of the beholder. Some don't even like the original 12 Lovett pieces which have sold for 6 figures. Roger has an opinion and is one of many. What's telling is the prices people are willing to pay for these.
Probably the biggest change since @ambro51 's original post is that PCGS grades these now.
PCGS data base is not as large as NGC but is good that they are now grading them. More creditable the better.