Oops! A pleasant grading surprise.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 2:43PM

I thought this was a 64. And it CACed!!

65+ with CAC sells for double what 65 with CAC does. Obviously, the next step is reconsideration.

BryceM · February 21, 2020 2:48PM

I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 2:51PM

So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 2:57PM

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

CoinJunkie · February 21, 2020 3:01PM

I'd probably leave well enough alone on that coin. The black spot near the chin is a real distraction and would preclude a + if I were grading it. FWIW.

BryceM · February 21, 2020 3:08PM

PM sent.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 3:19PM

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

BryceM · February 21, 2020 3:27PM

@MFeld, are you suggesting that people should actually look at their coins before trying a regrade?

Strange concept........

MFeld · February 21, 2020 3:30PM

@BryceM said:
@MFeld, are you suggesting that people should actually look at their coins before trying a regrade?

Strange concept........

I suggest it, on occasion.😉

Elcontador · February 21, 2020 3:34PM

The sticker means that JA believes he can sell it quickly at a small profit, not necessarily that it's a nice coin for the grade. I'm guessing you got the sticker probably because it's a better date and he'd have an easy time selling it.

Due to the fact that grading is an opinion, albeit an educated one, two coins of the same grade are not created equal. If you don't believe me, the 1912 S Nickel in MS 66 is a good example of this. Look at the range of prices for this coin. It should frighten you, and is one of the reasons I exited the series.

TennesseeDave · February 21, 2020 3:45PM

What if on a regrade you get the 64 you thought it deserved?

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 3:48PM

@TennesseeDave said:
What if on a regrade you get the 64 you thought it deserved?

"RECONSIDERATION™ is a service from PCGS that allows you to submit your coins for regrading without the risk of a potential crack out if the coin does not receive an upgrade."

There is a reason I would not regrade.

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

I may not know Peace Dollars well, but I know a 66 when I see one, and this is not a 66.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 3:49PM

@TennesseeDave said:
What if on a regrade you get the 64 you thought it deserved?

Since he already mentioned “reconsideration service”, it sounds like any resubmission would be in the holder. So In the incredibly unlikely event that the grade was lowered to 64, he would be compensated by PCGS.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 3:50PM

@MFeld said:

@TennesseeDave said:
What if on a regrade you get the 64 you thought it deserved?

Since he already mentioned “reconsideration service”, it sounds like any resubmission would be in the holder. So In the incredibly unlikely event that the grade was lowered to 64, he would be compensated by PCGS.

"RECONSIDERATION™ is a service from PCGS that allows you to submit your coins for regrading without the risk of a potential crack out if the coin does not receive an upgrade."

Recon cannot go down.

https://www.pcgs.com/reconsideration

BryceM · February 21, 2020 3:51PM

Well, neither can reholders............... refer to the other active thread here.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 3:52PM

@BryceM said:
Well, neither can reholders............... refer to the other active thread here.

Touché... But does PCGS consider a regrade different than removing a designation?

CoinJunkie · February 21, 2020 3:56PM

Considering a member just got a downgrade on a Reholder submission, I would assert that if PCGS is being asked to reassess the coin, they could in fact downgrade it either in or out of the holder. There would be compensation to the submitter in either case.

TennesseeDave · February 21, 2020 3:56PM

Ok, I now understand that it can't go down in grade. Good luck and please update us with the results.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 4:06PM

@CoinJunkie said:
Considering a member just got a downgrade on a Reholder submission, I would assert that if PCGS is being asked to reassess the coin, they could in fact downgrade it either in or out of the holder. There would be compensation to the submitter in either case.

That sounds reasonable to me.

coinbuf · February 21, 2020 4:10PM

Given your replies in that other thread be prepared to eat some serious crow if it goes down a grade.

amwldcoin · February 21, 2020 4:13PM

That coin from the pictures does not strike me as a +. PCGS is tough about handing out +'s and seems to do it the most under reconsideration for + only.

keets · February 21, 2020 4:16PM

how can a submitter receive a "downgrade" on a re-holder??

The “Reholder” service applies to coins that are currently graded and encapsulated by PCGS that the customer would like placed into the most current PCGS holder. For this submission type, the coins will not be graded. The coins will be received and then inspected by a member of the grading team to determine that the coin and PCGS holder are authentic. Once it is determined that the holder and coin are genuine, the coin will be removed and placed into a new PCGS holder. This service is generally used for coins that are housed in PCGS holders that have been damaged, or to create consistency within a collection.

if someone claims to have gotten a "downgrade" on a re-holder submission is suspect one of two things --- PCGS screwed up bad --- or --- the member isn't telling the truth and made a mistake on the submission form.

SeattleSlammer · February 21, 2020 4:28PM

Understand completely why you’d try for the +.

But I also think you’re fortunate for the 65 bean.

Either way, fun discussion. 🤓

BTW, didn’t that grade a while ago being a no-prong?

logger7 · February 21, 2020 4:33PM

Did you buy it as a 64 then? I've had coins passed over by others as in a club auction that grade well and cac. There is a lot of hesitance in this hobby if the coin is not in the right holder. PCGS and cac got it right IMO.

Many dealers try to buy raw coins at a grade or more below likely results.

johnny9434 · February 21, 2020 4:35PM

Id be happy with that alone. Thats just me

CoinJunkie · February 21, 2020 4:35PM

@keets said:
how can a submitter receive a "downgrade" on a re-holder??

The “Reholder” service applies to coins that are currently graded and encapsulated by PCGS that the customer would like placed into the most current PCGS holder. For this submission type, the coins will not be graded. The coins will be received and then inspected by a member of the grading team to determine that the coin and PCGS holder are authentic. Once it is determined that the holder and coin are genuine, the coin will be removed and placed into a new PCGS holder. This service is generally used for coins that are housed in PCGS holders that have been damaged, or to create consistency within a collection.

if someone claims to have gotten a "downgrade" on a re-holder submission is suspect one of two things --- PCGS screwed up bad --- or --- the member isn't telling the truth and made a mistake on the submission form.

Good question, but more appropriate for the thread where it was reported.

As to downgrades happening during a Regrade or Reconsideration, that is a very rare event, and shouldn't normally factor into one's calculus. Now if the coin has clearly changed appearance in the holder, that's a different story.

mbogoman · February 21, 2020 4:55PM

What makes you think it would CAC again if you got the 65+? That's the assumption you are making, but I don't think it's automatic...

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 5:21PM

@SeattleSlammer said:
Understand completely why you’d try for the +.

But I also think you’re fortunate for the 65 bean.

Either way, fun discussion. 🤓

BTW, didn’t that grade a while ago being a no-prong?

Purchased raw from a "We buy gold" place I buy a lot of material from.> @logger7 said:

Did you buy it as a 64 then? I've had coins passed over by others as in a club auction that grade well and cac. There is a lot of hesitance in this hobby if the coin is not in the right holder. PCGS and cac got it right IMO.

Many dealers try to buy raw coins at a grade or more below likely results.

I bought it raw but offered as if it would 64 after grading, which was accepted.> @mbogoman said:

What makes you think it would CAC again if you got the 65+? That's the assumption you are making, but I don't think it's automatic...

CAC doesn't consider plus grades when looking at coins. Pictures of the coin in the present holder (as a 65) are good enough for them to resticker after a plus is assigned.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 5:22PM

@mbogoman said:
What makes you think it would CAC again if you got the 65+? That's the assumption you are making, but I don't think it's automatic...

CAC ignores plus grades. So if they stickered the coin as a 65, theoretically, they will sticker it as a 65+. And if the coin still has the same ID number, a restickering is all but guaranteed.

BryceM · February 21, 2020 5:31PM

I've included good photos of previously CAC'd coins when submitting them again in their new "plus" re-graded holders and have NEVER been declined a bean. Obviously I wouldn't try this trick if it went up a numeric grade.

david3142 · February 21, 2020 5:47PM

@Elcontador said:
The sticker means that JA believes he can sell it quickly at a small profit, not necessarily that it's a nice coin for the grade. I'm guessing you got the sticker probably because it's a better date and he'd have an easy time selling it.

Due to the fact that grading is an opinion, albeit an educated one, two coins of the same grade are not created equal. If you don't believe me, the 1912 S Nickel in MS 66 is a good example of this. Look at the range of prices for this coin. It should frighten you, and is one of the reasons I exited the series.

I do not understand why you keep repeating this “coins JA makes a market in” line instead of the “solid for the grade one”. It is not true. It has never been true. John himself has said CAC stickers A and B coins. He does not make a market in all coins he stickers.

david3142 · February 21, 2020 6:00PM

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

The financial breakeven would be when the odds of success * upgrade value difference are equal to the cost (and hassle) of submission. Obviously, the odds of success go down with each improvement on the existing grade. What shot does the OP coin have at a 65+ conditioned on it being a 65 CAC? I bet it’s quite a bit more than 1/100, which is all it needs to be worth a chance at a $5000 upgrade.

ChrisH821 · February 21, 2020 6:02PM

@DelawareDoons said:
I bought it raw but offered as if it would 64 after grading, which was accepted.

That is very fair. It's a nice coin but buying it raw as a 65 would be too much risk IMO.
That being said, buying it as a 64 and getting a 65 and CAC is already a nice payday.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 6:06PM

@david3142 said:

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

The financial breakeven would be when the odds of success * upgrade value difference are equal to the cost (and hassle) of submission. Obviously, the odds of success go down with each improvement on the existing grade. What shot does the OP coin have at a 65+ conditioned on it being a 65 CAC? I bet it’s quite a bit more than 1/100, which is all it needs to be worth a chance at a $5000 upgrade.

Exactly. If I consider the odds of an upgrade to be more than 1 in 100 it is positive expected value, and thus, a mathematically sound principle to send it in for reconsideration.

yspsales · February 21, 2020 6:09PM

I bought a GSA CC Morgan for 64 money and it came back 66.

Single spot on the chin irritated me to know end.

I like the coin but the spots kill the coin for me...

Not good with Peace Dollars but you might as well try as long as you can keep the grade and bean.

MFeld · February 21, 2020 6:16PM

@DelawareDoons said:

@david3142 said:

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

The financial breakeven would be when the odds of success * upgrade value difference are equal to the cost (and hassle) of submission. Obviously, the odds of success go down with each improvement on the existing grade. What shot does the OP coin have at a 65+ conditioned on it being a 65 CAC? I bet it’s quite a bit more than 1/100, which is all it needs to be worth a chance at a $5000 upgrade.

Exactly. If I consider the odds of an upgrade to be more than 1 in 100 it is positive expected value, and thus, a mathematically sound principle to send it in for reconsideration.

Yes, but you thought it was a 64.

mbogoman · February 21, 2020 8:07PM

@MFeld said:

@mbogoman said:
What makes you think it would CAC again if you got the 65+? That's the assumption you are making, but I don't think it's automatic...

CAC ignores plus grades. So if they stickered the coin as a 65, theoretically, they will sticker it as a 65+. And if the coin still has the same ID number, a restickering is all but guaranteed.

Thank you for the education. My mistake.

DelawareDoons · February 21, 2020 10:20PM

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@david3142 said:

@MFeld said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@BryceM said:
I have "made" one 1928 in 65+ from MS65. It isn't so easy........

If you're interested in trying, I'd recommend the regrade service, not the reconsideration service.

I plan to try it a few different ways before I ever sell it. Honest question, how many of the 65's you tried with were CAC?

@MFeld said:
So you thought it was a 64 and it graded 65. But since a 65+ sells for a large premium over a 65, you’re going to resubmit it. It sounds like you’re being blinded by dollar signs, rather than considering the quality of the coin, itself.

It would be financially negligent of me to not go for the plus given that a 65 CAC sells for $3,000-$3,500 and a 65+CAC sold recently for $8,500.

The last time I had a coin with jumps like this, I sold it for $3,200. It got the plus and was sold by the dealer who purchased it from me for $9,000 3 months later. I am never making that mistake again.

At what point do you stop? If it graded 65+, you could resubmit in the hopes of a 66, because that would be far more valuable than a 65+, and so on.

The financial breakeven would be when the odds of success * upgrade value difference are equal to the cost (and hassle) of submission. Obviously, the odds of success go down with each improvement on the existing grade. What shot does the OP coin have at a 65+ conditioned on it being a 65 CAC? I bet it’s quite a bit more than 1/100, which is all it needs to be worth a chance at a $5000 upgrade.

Exactly. If I consider the odds of an upgrade to be more than 1 in 100 it is positive expected value, and thus, a mathematically sound principle to send it in for reconsideration.

Yes, but you thought it was a 64.

I never said I was an expert in Peace Dollars. Morgan Dollars are my wheelhouse.

What I thought means far less than what John Albanese and Co. think.

ricko · February 22, 2020 6:46AM

A lot of discussion here.... However, if you are looking for an opinion, I do not think it will gain a +....If you do submit it, be sure to let us know whatever the outcome....Cheers, RickO

MrEureka · February 22, 2020 7:12AM

You guys make this sound like a very unappealing hobby. Just saying.

DelawareDoons · February 22, 2020 7:56AM

@SeattleSlammer said:
BTW, didn’t that grade a while ago being a no-prong?

I was just reading this again and I realized you were talking about the PCGS holder having the older style gasket.

I did not realize this until now. Wow. It was graded in January.

coinbuf · February 22, 2020 8:25AM

Here is an idea, send it in for reholder that way the gasket and the grade can be fixed at the same time, after all you want the brand protected don't you.

Catbert · February 22, 2020 8:33AM

Needs a dip for it to have a chance, IMHO. I’d leave it be.

Elcontador · February 22, 2020 2:59PM

@Elcontador said:
The sticker means that JA believes he can sell it quickly at a small profit, not necessarily that it's a nice coin for the grade. I'm guessing you got the sticker probably because it's a better date and he'd have an easy time selling it.

Due to the fact that grading is an opinion, albeit an educated one, two coins of the same grade are not created equal. If you don't believe me, the 1912 S Nickel in MS 66 is a good example of this. Look at the range of prices for this coin. It should frighten you, and is one of the reasons I exited the series.

_"I do not understand why you keep repeating this “coins JA makes a market in” line instead of the “solid for the grade one”. It is not true. It has never been true. John himself has said CAC stickers A and B coins. He does not make a market in all coins he stickers."
_
Because JA makes money from buying and selling coins, not stickering them. I keep repeating this because it is true. Most of the coins he has stickered which I have seen, I've liked, and agree they are nice for the grade.

But there are a number of exceptions, the 28 P Peace under discussion is one of them. I have also seen a number of coins which I -- and some others in the business who have the sharpest eyes in the business -- believe are nice for the grade that he did not sticker, probably because he is not interested in them. Why he is not interested in them, I don't know, and it is not my concern.

JA is very good as what he does. But I wouldn't bet my life on his, or anyone else's opinion on the grade of a particular coin.

Kkathyl · February 22, 2020 3:15PM

Now that we are in this real deep can I see the reverse. The 66 in CoinFacts not your Cert has some distractions that’s why I ask.

Kathy

MFeld · February 22, 2020 3:50PM

@Elcontador said:
@Elcontador said:
The sticker means that JA believes he can sell it quickly at a small profit, not necessarily that it's a nice coin for the grade. I'm guessing you got the sticker probably because it's a better date and he'd have an easy time selling it.

Due to the fact that grading is an opinion, albeit an educated one, two coins of the same grade are not created equal. If you don't believe me, the 1912 S Nickel in MS 66 is a good example of this. Look at the range of prices for this coin. It should frighten you, and is one of the reasons I exited the series.
_"I do not understand why you keep repeating this “coins JA makes a market in” line instead of the “solid for the grade one”. It is not true. It has never been true. John himself has said CAC stickers A and B coins. He does not make a market in all coins he stickers."
_
Because JA makes money from buying and selling coins, not stickering them. I keep repeating this because it is true. Most of the coins he has stickered which I have seen, I've liked, and agree they are nice for the grade.

But there are a number of exceptions, the 28 P Peace under discussion is one of them. I have also seen a number of coins which I -- and some others in the business who have the sharpest eyes in the business -- believe are nice for the grade that he did not sticker, probably because he is not interested in them. Why he is not interested in them, I don't know, and it is not my concern.

JA is very good as what he does. But I wouldn't bet my life on his, or anyone else's opinion on the grade of a particular coin.

Yes, John probably makes more money trading CAC coins than he does reviewing them for possible stickers. However, he doesn’t sticker coins because he’s interested in them and he doesn’t decline to sticker them because he’s not interested in them.

BryceM · February 22, 2020 11:19PM

I love how just about any thread can turn into a CAC thread.

Mark · February 23, 2020 6:01AM

@BryceM Good point about how threads can be changed into CAC threads. I think I'll go turn your box of 20 (stunningly beautiful!!!) commemorative thread into a CAC thread!

Cougar1978 · February 23, 2020 8:02AM

PASS - The huge black spot on the chin a real turnoff for me. Can’t believe he stickered that. I will take a nice 64 with no spots.

Interesting, Thanks for showing - please show reverse.

Blue sheet on it is $2000. I wonder how high it would go if started at that on the bay. Would it get bids? GS CAC bid (Jan) is 3500 if he would pay me that would ship to him ASAP.

scubafuel · February 23, 2020 9:35AM

.

rld14 · February 23, 2020 9:48AM

I don't see it getting a + with the spot on it.

I mean, if you were expecting a 64 and got a 65 AND got the green bean that's HUGE on a 28...

Oops! A pleasant grading surprise.

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