I wonder if the MInt has the ability to strike classic period coins that would be indistinguishable from the genuine article? If they could, say, strike a few million early date gold coins that are identical to the originals, then everyone who wants one could have one.
Probably not.
The attempts to duplicate the artwork on the 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar came close but was not quite the same. Given the minting technology was similar in 1964 and the early gold coins were made on screw presses, that might create another problem.
Still you extrapolated my point. I was talking about NEW ISSUES, not making copies of old ones. Remaking classic coins with copy dies is a whole different issue.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I wonder if the MInt has the ability to strike classic period coins that would be indistinguishable from the genuine article? If they could, say, strike a few million early date gold coins that are identical to the originals, then everyone who wants one could have one.
Probably not.
The attempts to duplicate the artwork on the 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar came close but was not quite the same. Given the minting technology was similar in 1964 and the early gold coins were made on screw presses, that might create another problem.
Still you extrapolated my point. I was talking about NEW ISSUES, not making copies of old ones. Remaking classic coins with copy dies is a whole different issue.
I didn't so much extrapolate the point, I was picking at a piece of your point: everyone who wants one should be able to get one.
Now, I would agree in principle that is mostly true. The problem with modern coins and the unlimited supply is that the supply is self defeating. Peruse a few modern coin threads here where our fellow forumites are bragging about how they have sworn off Mint products. Why? Usually because the prices on all unlimited coin issues tend to plummet shortly after release.
The ASE is (intentionally) an extreme case of creating value and artificial rarity. But, it has juiced interest in Mint products, which was the Mint's goal. And even a few of those forumites who swore off Mint products tried to get one.
There is a balance between the equity of unlimited mintages to satisfy all possible demand and limited availability to preserve the sense of value.
A limited edition sparks collector interest. It also enhances the value of the issue... sometimes for a short time, other times for extended periods. I have no problem with the way the Mint conducted this release. No, I did not get one....I will wait to see prices 'stabilize'...Even if I do not get one, life goes on...and I collect coins...among several other life interests. I hope to see the next limited issue from the mint.... it is fun to watch - before, during and then afterwards - sour grapes as well as elation. Cheers, RickO
The US mint strives to stimulate customer demand. They did a good job doing so with the silver reverse proof. Unsold inventory is a PITA for the mint.
The mint system effectively enforces purchase/delivery of just "one per household." The mint has no concern about the coin being transferred from one household to another, because quite frankly it is none of their business.
Disclosure: I, nor all my brothers, cousins, in-laws and neighbors did not participate in this issue.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Would you bend down and pick up a $100 Bill laying on the side walk? That's the way I look at passing up one of these at Baltimore. Many people made over $1000 flipping these at the show. Me....$834. A friend of mine whose ebay listing was pictured here made close to $3000! How much does it cost you to get to Baltimore?
I don't think others expect you to want the same things out of the hobby that they do. That said- there's no need to dismiss the excitement others feel for the things they collect.
Right?
They are not collecting these things. They are flipping them, perhaps to get money to buy the pieces they really enjoy. Why do you want me to be on your side or agree with you?
I’m not an ASE collector because I find the early coins kinda simple — business strike and proof only, with one mint making them. Boring!
Of course, now that they’ve offered different finishes and mint marks, I don’t like that either. Too gimmicky! 😉
Now I DO find the enhanced reverse approach attractive, and I can see grabbing a 2019 W-mint version with the S-mint profits. (Hey — there have been only these two ERP ASEs, right?). Then maybe I’ll build a finish- and mintmark-set. Then... aw geez, maybe the Mint has roped me in after all!
@BillJones said:
Yet every once and a while, the mint comes up with another one of these “ringers” that are issued at a reasonable price but end up subjecting these collectors to a huge mark-up courtesy of “the flippers.”
Eliminating flippers, even if you could, wouldn't repeal the law of supply and demand. Ultimately, the coins are going to be worth what they're worth because of what collectors are willing to pay. In this case, that's quite likely to be substantially higher than the "reasonable" issue price.
I honestly don't think this coin was minted to stimulate the hobby or population interests in any sort of fashion. If that was an intention, more would have been minted. As stated, there are only two types of individuals that know what's going on at the mint and what is coming up for sale, Collectors and Flippers! Most collectors do not have the means to send out mailers to hundreds of people to order a product. The most hurt I see to collectors are the big shot dealers and sellers that are able to manipulate the system!
@BillJones said:
Those who want these coins should be able to buy them at the source at the issue price. Perhaps the solution is to sell all the coins people who want them, limiting the number per household for a period, for like a month.
Exactly! In fact, the Mint did this successfully with the 1998 Kennedy set (Robert Kennedy commem silver dollar and 1998-S silver unc. Kennedy half). $59.95. Two-week ordering period, minted to demand. Final order total was about 62,000 sets, and that's how many were released. Collectors were not shut out, and speculators made a modest profit. Win-win.
@amwldcoin said:
Would you bend down and pick up a $100 Bill laying on the side walk? That's the way I look at passing up one of these at Baltimore. Many people made over $1000 flipping these at the show. Me....$834. A friend of mine whose ebay listing was pictured here made close to $3000! How much does it cost you to get to Baltimore?
I don't think others expect you to want the same things out of the hobby that they do. That said- there's no need to dismiss the excitement others feel for the things they collect.
Right?
They are not collecting these things. They are flipping them, perhaps to get money to buy the pieces they really enjoy. Why do you want me to be on your side or agree with you?
When you spend money to come to a show from a distance, time is money. I only get one Baltimore show a year now and the two FUN shows. Summer FUN is a regional show, so leaves me with two major shows a year. I am not going to spent half the show standing on-line to buy a coin to make a profit. The $834 would not have covered my travel expenses. The $3,000 would have been winner, but like I said, time is money.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I'm sure there are plenty of hard core collectors who have never sold anything. And plenty of flippers who have never collected anything but again, we mostly come from the same place and delight in the same things.
I agree with BillJones and Overdate: you still have a limited edition if you constrict the HHL and also the ordering period - which could even be cut down to 1 week or ten days. That would avoid the madness and still leave a bit on the table for the flippers; collectors would have their chance.
And I got one with all this, which I will open in due course and NOT grade as I am a collector. Had I not been successful, I would not support the madness that has gone on since.
BTW, IMO the craziness over COA is just that and a mere scam/sham to increase profits for parties involved with NOTHING to do with the actual coin. Much as with "early releases" or "first strikes", which are known not to correlate with anything.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
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I like the idea of one-click ordering to level the playing field. If others like it maybe we can petition the mint or something.
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Probably not.
The attempts to duplicate the artwork on the 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar came close but was not quite the same. Given the minting technology was similar in 1964 and the early gold coins were made on screw presses, that might create another problem.
Still you extrapolated my point. I was talking about NEW ISSUES, not making copies of old ones. Remaking classic coins with copy dies is a whole different issue.
I didn't so much extrapolate the point, I was picking at a piece of your point: everyone who wants one should be able to get one.
Now, I would agree in principle that is mostly true. The problem with modern coins and the unlimited supply is that the supply is self defeating. Peruse a few modern coin threads here where our fellow forumites are bragging about how they have sworn off Mint products. Why? Usually because the prices on all unlimited coin issues tend to plummet shortly after release.
The ASE is (intentionally) an extreme case of creating value and artificial rarity. But, it has juiced interest in Mint products, which was the Mint's goal. And even a few of those forumites who swore off Mint products tried to get one.
There is a balance between the equity of unlimited mintages to satisfy all possible demand and limited availability to preserve the sense of value.
i feel sorry for the folks who collect these as a series.the mint lost me as a customer decades ago specifically because of the"excitement"
A limited edition sparks collector interest. It also enhances the value of the issue... sometimes for a short time, other times for extended periods. I have no problem with the way the Mint conducted this release. No, I did not get one....I will wait to see prices 'stabilize'...Even if I do not get one, life goes on...and I collect coins...among several other life interests. I hope to see the next limited issue from the mint.... it is fun to watch - before, during and then afterwards - sour grapes as well as elation. Cheers, RickO
The US mint strives to stimulate customer demand. They did a good job doing so with the silver reverse proof. Unsold inventory is a PITA for the mint.
The mint system effectively enforces purchase/delivery of just "one per household." The mint has no concern about the coin being transferred from one household to another, because quite frankly it is none of their business.
Disclosure: I, nor all my brothers, cousins, in-laws and neighbors did not participate in this issue.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Me, I'm stacking current pennies for the time when they'll be in demand for a flip.
Maybe several billion flips.
Would you bend down and pick up a $100 Bill laying on the side walk? That's the way I look at passing up one of these at Baltimore. Many people made over $1000 flipping these at the show. Me....$834. A friend of mine whose ebay listing was pictured here made close to $3000! How much does it cost you to get to Baltimore?
The 2016 Shield is quite a flip in an ms68.
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I’m not an ASE collector because I find the early coins kinda simple — business strike and proof only, with one mint making them. Boring!
Of course, now that they’ve offered different finishes and mint marks, I don’t like that either. Too gimmicky! 😉
Now I DO find the enhanced reverse approach attractive, and I can see grabbing a 2019 W-mint version with the S-mint profits. (Hey — there have been only these two ERP ASEs, right?). Then maybe I’ll build a finish- and mintmark-set. Then... aw geez, maybe the Mint has roped me in after all!
Eliminating flippers, even if you could, wouldn't repeal the law of supply and demand. Ultimately, the coins are going to be worth what they're worth because of what collectors are willing to pay. In this case, that's quite likely to be substantially higher than the "reasonable" issue price.
Even Flipper got paid people...
I honestly don't think this coin was minted to stimulate the hobby or population interests in any sort of fashion. If that was an intention, more would have been minted. As stated, there are only two types of individuals that know what's going on at the mint and what is coming up for sale, Collectors and Flippers! Most collectors do not have the means to send out mailers to hundreds of people to order a product. The most hurt I see to collectors are the big shot dealers and sellers that are able to manipulate the system!
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Exactly! In fact, the Mint did this successfully with the 1998 Kennedy set (Robert Kennedy commem silver dollar and 1998-S silver unc. Kennedy half). $59.95. Two-week ordering period, minted to demand. Final order total was about 62,000 sets, and that's how many were released. Collectors were not shut out, and speculators made a modest profit. Win-win.
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So many victims.......oh the unfairness........tragedy everywhere!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
When you spend money to come to a show from a distance, time is money. I only get one Baltimore show a year now and the two FUN shows. Summer FUN is a regional show, so leaves me with two major shows a year. I am not going to spent half the show standing on-line to buy a coin to make a profit. The $834 would not have covered my travel expenses. The $3,000 would have been winner, but like I said, time is money.
So when does a collector become a flipper? Look no further than Gazes latest post. Case Closed.
Scrolled through this thread and can't find a Gazes post. Would like to see what he said.
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Sorry, latest thread. And I just feel collectors and resellers/flippers are one in the same.
I'm sure there are plenty of hard core collectors who have never sold anything. And plenty of flippers who have never collected anything but again, we mostly come from the same place and delight in the same things.
I agree with BillJones and Overdate: you still have a limited edition if you constrict the HHL and also the ordering period - which could even be cut down to 1 week or ten days. That would avoid the madness and still leave a bit on the table for the flippers; collectors would have their chance.
And I got one with all this, which I will open in due course and NOT grade as I am a collector. Had I not been successful, I would not support the madness that has gone on since.
BTW, IMO the craziness over COA is just that and a mere scam/sham to increase profits for parties involved with NOTHING to do with the actual coin. Much as with "early releases" or "first strikes", which are known not to correlate with anything.
Well, just Love coins, period.