How many collectors have we gained today vs How many lost?
DCW
Posts: 7,620 ✭✭✭✭✭
Today, as was expected, the US Mint website abruptly crashed at 12pm, the exact moment that the wildly popular 2019-S ASE Enhanced Reverse Proof went on sale. It was a struggle to purchase, but all 30,000 coins were apparently sold in about 18 minutes.
With this new issue, came a huge influx of new forum members looking to cash in on the quick money.
My question is this: As a result of this promotion,
1. How many folks might decide they like this hobby and start collecting coins?
2. How many have we truly lost at the frustration with ordering on the Mint's website today?
My guess is that the positives will likely outweigh the negatives here. As the sting of defeat subsides, we may just realize that this was a good way for the Mint to draw interest into a hobby many consider on "the outs."
What do you all think?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Comments
I quit!
Until the next flip craze that is.....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Those simply looking to "cash in on the quick money" convert to true collector status precisely 1 time in 1000. So, the US maybe has 10-15 new collectors, assuming many people ended up finding way to buy multiple coins.
If someone gives up collecting because of a single computer glitch during a not-so-rare mint release...... well, they were probably on the way out the door anyhow.
This bolded line in my October 10 e-mail to the Mint's Customer Service when I first heard about the 30,000 limit will give you a clue as to the way I leaned:
I am writing to comment about your newly-announced American Eagle 2019 One Ounce Silver Enhanced Reverse Proof Coin, to go on sale on November 14. The 30,000 mintage limit is way too small for all of the people who will want this coin. I fear that I will be on your website that day and try to order one, and yet still get shut out because of the expected heavy volume of orders. Please consider upping the production on this issue to a more reasonable number, like 100,000. Honestly, if I miss out on getting this coin, I'm never buying another silver eagle from the Mint again.
More junk!
I quit the mint drama a number of years ago. I could not care less for what they issue these days.
However, I am still a coin collector and still love the hobby even though the mint is customer unfriendly and not worth your business.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
3 months after the internet craze at insane prices you can get it for cheaper then what the mint sold it for, fwiw hopefully
Ummm... not this time.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
So many people buying these just to sell, the market is going to be flooded.
Overall I'd say no net change.
Collector, occasional seller
Lots of frustrated collectors out there. Will they buy one on the secondary market? Will the price be worth it? Will it really stop current collectors from collecting? Will this coin be unobtainably high priced? How much will the signed COA'S be sold for? I think we may have created many frustrated collectors. Already I've seen lots of bitter and resentful remarks from many around here. I didn't get one. Yet.
I think I agree with this. You might have a handful of new, casual profit seekers.
Not a chance. The price may be lower than the secondary market price is now, but this will never be a $65 coin. If this is a $65 coin, sell everything because coins are dead...
If the stupidity of a government agency would make you quit collecting you would have quit long ago. If a collector is just looking for a quick profit they won't last long.
I would worry more about the mint product collector who decides to sell all their mint junk and learns they are going to lose a lot of money. Witness all of the proof sets buyers who may have left us already
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I'm a new guy. And this is actually the first coin I've ever purchased.
I came here a few months ago as I began to research putting together a gold coin type set. Still working on better informing myself and still haven't bought one. Working on it.
I only became aware of this coin from the threads here and set myself a reminder and thought I'd take a shot and just sell it for a nice profit. Not so sure now. I don't really care about the coin but I don't want to take advantage and sell for a high profit to a collector either. Doesn't seem right. I actually feel a bit guilty for getting one. Once I get it in hand, I will find someone that wants it to keep and come up with a fair price for everyone.
The more I read and learn trying to make wise purchasing decisions for my desired type set, the more I become aware of the pitfalls. Not enough to deter me from my plan but enough to know I need to be better educated.
Awesome post slow hand...tip my cap to you Sir
V/r
Mike
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
You really don't believe any new collectors were gained today do you? Please stop blowing smoke already.
Even the Mint knew it was a problem, or was I the only person that noticed that the Mints mobile application was removed from the Google Play Store hours before the sale of this manufactured rarity was to go on sale?
Please don't ask if the nice guy who sells these for $1975 each on eBay just an hour after the sale started has made enough money, or if the guy on TV selling them for $5997.00 because he could only get 500 from his direct source at the mint.
Please, gain collector's?
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Between the flippers and the TV peddlers, these limited edition Mint items exist in their own little world, with a few individual collectors lucky enough to get one at issuance price.
I don’t see how the hobby benefits from all of this.
Try selling last years hot mint item this year.
@SIowhand....Welcome aboard.....I was not so lucky as you... did not get one...so if you decide to sell, please let me know by PM....Thank you, Cheers, RickO
I wouldn't feel guilty for 10 seconds. When you overpay for a coin and take a giant loss, do you think the new owner wants to pay extra because of your loss?
Actually, you can still sell the 2018-S reverse proof set for well over issue price.
I do.
Everyone starts somewhere. We are not "born Numismatists." I think it is wholly reasonable that some will catch the collecting bug.
Consider the State Quarters program that brought a boom of collectors in, or the 1995 doubled die that generated excitement for checking your change again.
Why should this be any different?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
You are not looking at the entire picture. [Deep breaths. Namaste.]
The fact that distribution sucked and prices are (at least temporarily) ridiculously high is EXACTLY WHY YOU PICK UP COLLECTORS. The collectors you pick up probably won't even own this coin or want this coin, but they will have been made aware of coins by this coin.
We certainly added more clients for general anxiety and phobias (Mint).
Don't forget outright rage...
None, and none. The only people who successfully bought today are already sufficiently engaged to know what they needed to do. For those who weren't successful, the mint may have lost some customers, but I have a hard time believing the hobby lost them.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
See my previous comment. Hype generates interest. Rising prices generate interest. It has nothing directly to do with actually acquiring the coin.
I don't have a clue why you would feel guilty about buying a coin you tried to buy. When you get it, trade it for a gold coin and continue working on the type set. That should help ease the "pain" you are feeling over the luck of the draw.
I am done with the mint. I collect ASE, and have every one. My experience today was 20 minutes of getting the coin in my basket, only to crash when I went to put registered credit card in and pay. This happened a half dozen times until it went unavailable . I can’t imagine paying the huge premium on this coin, and in general, have been losing interest in collecting anyway. Cry no tears for me. I just believe the mint cares nothing for the true collector.
The Mint cares about its CUSTOMERS, "true collectors" or not. But they need their customers to have the occasional "win". And they need potential customers to see a "win".
I lost out, like others, with it confirmed in my bag, errored out over and over with the CC info, got past that hurdle, to final confirmation, and it died.
I took screen shots along the way, with the clock in the background, put together a nice presentation, and I am in the process of shipping it off to my 2 Senators and Rep, asking why the US Mint HATES individual US Citizens so much, as opposed to enriching a few businesses.
The incompetence of the US Mint IT department and the customer service going off line and phone disconnects just make make the issues an even hotter mess. Also the screen shot of the reminder to order from the US Mint sent 7 minutes AFTER the sell out.
I know nothing will come of it, but at least somebody at the mint will enjoy getting a congressional inquest coming down on them. I know it was always a pleasure in the Army when the letter arrived with Senator or Rep. on top, seeking (demanding) information, along with a copy to everyone in the chain of command.
I don't think it comes down to "individual US citizens" vs. businesses AT ALL.
Twenty years ago, when the Mint went to internet sales, it all but ended the distribution by coin shops. It used to be that my local B&M was where a lot (most?) people went to get their Mint and Proof sets. That opportunity disappeared when usmint.gov took over.
How many potential new collectors even knew about this? Even if we’re generous and we consider myself a collector, I didn’t even know about this until 10 minutes ago.
I doubt very much that this poorly handled issue created new collectors, I would bet that 85% of the sale went to paid buyers who couldn't care less about collecting and more about the $200-$300 that flippers paid them for their time. Those funds will not be spent on coins of that I'm sure. It did however piss off true collectors that wanted the item, so much so that I hope few are willing to pay the huge prem and the flippers get stuck with them and choke on the fees they paid.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
They aren't coins anyway...….they are just silver rounds.....Bullion. Coin collectors couldn't care less about these.
They are NCLT, perhaps, but definitely coins. A LOT of people collect this series. Elitism will cost more collectors than anything.
I might add that the 2018-W Palladium Proofs are doing fine too, thank you very much.
@slowhand
Welcome to the CU forums.
Sell the Ag to achieve your Au goals.
If you feel self-conscious about not “fleecing” a fellow collector then sell to a dealer... an option to consider; as you build your Au set(s).
I like many many others failed to purchase, but boy did I try. I was really depressed, but then I went back to my box of pennies and all is well again, lol
What occurred today had very little to do with coin collecting as I believe most of us appreciate it.
Respectfully, those who buy modern coins (or any coins) merely to flip them for a profit could never really come to enjoy the hobby. To them, it's basically just a business or side-job. Not a true hobby.
A hobby is something you do to enjoy.
Most coin collectors who find satisfaction buy the coins they want for their own collection, not a coin somebody else recommends because of the grade, or a special sticker that counts as a "seal of approval", or because some money manager recommended a $100K coin as an investment because they promise you (fingers crossed) that it will appreciate to being worth $250K in five years or less. Or for any other reason.
As BryceM said above, if a single glitch on a website one time in your life is enough to dissuade you from collecting coins. . . well you probably weren't all that dedicated to the hobby anyway.
Do you want to know what does deter people from collecting coins, and puts a bad taste in their mouth?
Counterfeits.
The flood of fakes from China and elsewhere into America is killing our hobby. The actual economic damage, to both rare coins and bullion, is measurable into the billions of dollars. Maybe $100B+ if you count bullion.
I have met so many people in Texas and elsewhere who, despite having a six or seven figure net worth and cash to spare/invest with, DO NOT want to touch coins or bullion because they fear buying counterfeits now, or having to sell in a future market saturated with fakes.
We all know how many fake 1oz PAMP Suisse/APMEX, even fake-PCGS graded holders with fake 1oz Gold Eagles in them flooded the market in 2011-2012 during the all-time-highs for Gold and Silver. Imagine what will happen as both technology advances AND if bullion surges again (which with our national debt and tumultuous international economic climate, it is very possible). The flood of fakes will be 10x or more omnipresent throughout the market. Every coin/bullion show will have people coming in with fakes, and one or two elderly dealers might not catch them if they're good enough, further disseminating them into people's collections, robbing them silently over time.
A somewhat obscure release of a single coin of a single type for one year won't deter any long-term collectors. But a neverending onslaught of fakes of ever-improving quality and ever-increasing difficulty to spot such counterfeits? That will deter many people from ever even contemplating entering rare coins or bullion as an investment or hobby.
Congratulations to everyone who got the coin. 18 minutes is quite a short window.
Re-energized. I was thinking of quitting the series due to high "ho-hum" mintages. This was a fun challenge even tho I lost out (my wife and kids did score, but worked HARD to make it happen).
Live goes ON ........ did NOT change me a bit either way although my Mom as a novice got one
Should take much more for one to quit anything IMHO
The screwed up 2010 ATB 5 oz release brought me back into the collecting fold after a 15 year hiatus or so. Part of the fun of collecting is the "thrill of the chase". Typically this is trying to get a particular coin with a particular look, condition, etc. But it can also be trying to get a particular coin that is difficult to get because of poor distribution, limited mintage, etc. In general, the concept of "if you can acquire this difficult to get coin, it will be worth a lot of money" brings excitement.
I would guess that newer collectors will be less disappointed about not getting a coin. The older collectors who have bought mint products for years are more likely to be upset as they have been loyal customers who can't get this particular coin.
Good observations and I agree.
Having something in the news is exciting. It gives people something to get excited about even if they cannot get the coin. I get more out of reading about it than actually owning one.
There are some that would really want a coin and be very disappointed about not getting one and I do think things should be done so sellouts are slower and coins really go to collectors. Not sure what can be done here.
Meh. I think this is more of a money grab than a collector frenzy.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
The mint got the exact results they expected and hoped for. MHO is they will not do anything to fix yesterday’s chaos and plans for the next one have made long before yesterday.
DiggerJim
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I agree with this sentiment, except my displeasure will cost the mint ALL future business. That means no more silver, gold, palladium, or annual mint sets. This is not how responsible organizations treat their customers.
This coin collector cares. Been collecting them since 1986. I aspire to a complete set - by my calculations, the total number for a complete set with all mints and all finishes (and the 2 2008-W reverse varieties), is 92. With this newest issue, I will have 91 of them.
Again......this is not a coin. It's BULLION!!!