The other side of the story
shish
Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am the Liberty Seated Dollar specialist that was the subject of an emotional thread by Crusty in which he plays the victim, claiming he was burned. Several friends urged me to respond with the facts regarding this transaction. They explained that this form of revenge is common place in today’s social media. Crusty was upset because he was denied a full refund on a PCGS graded coin he purchased nearly 2 years ago. Unnerved by the possibility of a potential loss he chose to embellish his story and attack me in the public domain attempting to tarnish my reputation.
My background in the field of electronics allowed me to maintain a high-level security clearance with the US government for over 30 years. I am extremely proud of my small contributions to our great nation. I’m blessed with incredible parents, family, and friends.
When I was introduced to Crusty he was in the process of selling the remaining cleaned LSD’s he had purchased mainly from auctions at a loss. I mentored Crusty for over two years, spending many hours sharing my knowledge and analyzing his potential purchases saving him many thousands of dollars. In addition, he received first shot on several coins from my personal collection. Crusty purchased several coins at and or very close to my cost, and over time with zero interest.
The 1859 seated dollar graded EF-45 by PCGS was purchased from a Kagin’s auction for $1,837. plus shipping. I spoke with them before the sale and was told that this example was under-graded and could be in an AU-58 holder. When I inquired they explained the coin was purchased from an old-time collector. The coin has deep brownish crusty toning which is Crusty’s preference. The coin was described to him as an AU-50 to AU-53 with some brightness in the fields under the toning and some reverse striking weakness. During our conversation I mentioned to Crusty that I had seen LSD’s with proof-like fields but never claimed that this example was proof-like. The term net-graded was used to explain the difference in the details on the coin and the certified grade of the coin. Crusty purchased the coin from me for $2,150. plus shipping, I realized a 15% profit.
Nearly two years later Crusty explains that his friend looked at the coin and thought it had been polished. Next Crusty took the coin to the long Beach show and got several opinions. He called me from the show and said he wanted to sell the coin. I suggested while he was there that he offer the coin to Kagin’s because they had spoken very highly of it when it was described to me. He did and they offered him $1,000.
The next day I called Crusty and told him that I had recently bought another example of this date in the same grade. Regardless I decided to make him an offer of $1,300. exactly 30% higher than Kagin’s offer. In addition, I offered to give him all money over that amount if I was able to sell it for more than $1,300. He refused, wanting his full purchase price. I reminded him that my no questions asked return privilege was 5 days not 2 years. I tried to explain that over two years market conditions change and his request was not reasonable.
Approximately a week later Crusty posts an extremely long story on the message boards claiming I burned him. As a collector I strive to buy the best examples possible. Many of you know how difficult it is to find premium quality better date LSD’s. For example; for the date of 1859-P CAC has approved only 19 examples in all grades, and only 1 in EF-45. I’ve assisted several collectors and fellow LSCC members with their collections and have enjoyed many long-term friendships.
Brett Charville, PCGS President, posted the following two messages before closing the thread.
“Crusty Please message me directly and we'll work to take this coin off the market if
warranted.”
“Locking post as we're headed towards rule #2 violation on our guidelines.”
I do not know for certain but it appears that rather than working with Brett to remove this coin from the market Crusty decided to sell the coin on Ebay where it realized $912. not including any Ebay or Paypal fee’s. It was telling that he said nothing negative about the coin in his Ebay description and did not accept returns.
A veteran collector and friend summed it up this way “If this transaction is considered burning a customer then we may as well shut down the entire industry.”
Honestly, I don’t think Crusty understands the basic rules of buying or selling coins. Although I have paid more than my original selling price to buy back coins I’ve never had anyone demand a full refund after nearly 2 years regardless of market conditions. You decide if this transaction meets your definition of burning a buyer.
Comments
Thank you for sharing. It is always interesting to see both sides of the story.
Having not seen the coin in hand, it is hard to know what we are dealing with. So, I'm reserving judgment.
If the latter part of your story is true, it is interesting that the coin would be sold that way.
There are no heroes or villains, to my mind. It is just an unfortunate deal all around. They happen.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Below is an Ebay transaction that appears to confirm the way the coin was sold, and to me, it speaks volumes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1859-P-1-PCGS-XF45-Seated-Liberty-Dollar-Extremely-tough-date-/174050406667?hash=item288636710b:g:7tMAAOSwjhJdk--t&nma=true&si=bQDQ0Bg6AqVcV%2BnVd49thLbLAQ0%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks for posting your side also, rehearsed and heart felt. Spoken like a true politician!
Yes that friend told him the coin was polished, not sure if I was a customer or friend with Shish. BUT customers family’s don’t have dinner with dealers and there parents at there parents house. They don’t go to Red Sox’s games with their dealer and parents. They aren’t invited come to there house for vacation with their family. Dealers don’t sleep over customers houses...........
What was done was wrong in my eyes, selling our friend a bad coin. You can tell everyone he was a customer and not a friend, you obviously believe yourself.
Please go to lscc talktap and go under the seated dollar section. You’ll see a different thread were he replied immediately and it didn’t take weeks for a response.
Yes exactly, but a friend that is a expert lied to his friend for money. Their were 4 aka customers/ friends that don’t talk to shish anymore.
Differing opinions about professionally graded coins aren’t necessarily synonymous with lies. And if a number of people stated that the coin was polished, why wasn’t it described as such, if/when it was resold?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
seems to have sold at the PCGS price guide
It doesn't look polished. It appears to have nice original surfaces.
Not sure
Why wasn’t it stated when the coin was sold by the first dealer at auction?
Why wasn’t the coins details stated when sold to a FRIEND by Shish?
Why when suggested by shish after reviewing the coin it was suggested to send it back to pcgs.
Why didn’t Shish send it back himself.
Why oh why we won’t Know.
I know why because the dealer didn’t want to lose money.
Maybe the coin wasn’t polished. But if it was, it’s hypocritical of a buyer/owner to complain that he wasn’t made aware of it, then later offers it for resale, without disclosing it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes the coin was polished, if you read the original thread or the thread on the lscc talktap you’ll see. The point is why would you sell a friend a bad coin and not disclose it. KEY IS FRIEND Several major dealers at Long Beach confirmed it was. Mark maybe you were the heritage representative that explained to crusty why it wasn’t PL and it was polished?
Just takes a tilt of the coin to see. Pictures can hide so many issues.
That’s exactly why a friend to both parties suggested to show dealers that didn’t know anything about it.
Well they all said it was polished, even shish agreed after receiving the coin back!
Two years is too long to expect a refund, whether it be from a friend or dealer. The coin is in a PCGS holder with a straight grade. Where is PCGS on this? Chalk it up to experience, don't have anything to do with the dealer if you like. Move on.
I wasn’t. And again, if it was polished, shouldn't that have been disclosed when the coin was resold?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes everyone is wrong
The first two dealers also should have disclosed it. Are they excluded from being wrong because they are dealers?
Especially when sold to a friend.
So everyone is wrong, especially when burning a friend. I totally agree
I am sure all the auction houses sell only problem free coin and don’t disclose any issues!
Here goes Mr Feld again, giving a logical opinion.
Their* their* their* their* an* there*
Those pictures didn’t help sell it either.
Yes, that is somewhat unfortunate.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
On the prior thread, PCGS offered to re-examine the coin. Instead, the aggrieved apparently refused to send it to PCGS and opted to sell it on eBay without a disclosure of the alleged polishing.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
The obverse looks like it might have had a little rub. But, frankly, it is a VERY solid looking coin from the photo.
I still refuse to pass judgment on anyone in this story. I don't know how the original sale went down or what the original seller thought about the coin (polished or not). But we do KNOW that the second seller passionately believes he was stuck with a polished coin by a "friend" and yet insisted on selling that coin without disclosure. And that is really unfortunate, to me. And I can't really draw a distinction between dealer and friend.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
The big houses (Stack's and Heritage) do disclose problems, in my experience. But I really can't tell how big the issue is from photos, so I will reserve judgment. The reverse looks problem-free from the photo while the obverse may have an old, light polish.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
x - I read the wrong thread, sorry.
And that is really unfortunate, to me. And I can't really draw a distinction between dealer and friend.
All you need to do is go on Lscc talktap and read all the past threads in the seated dollar section. Clearly it was a friendship!
The words between the two say it all in past threads.
Whew too early for popcorn... Does Kellogg still make Sugar Smacks?
That is not what I meant. What I meant is that what is ethical or unethical shouldn't be bound by whether you are a dealer or friend. If it was wrong for shish to sell the coin without disclosing an old polish, then it is equally wrong for it to be resold without disclosure.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Agreed and I don’t take it as a given that Shish thought or knew the coin was polished at the time he bought or resold it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To me, after hearing his side, I think shish was up front and honest from the onset. Some times coins turn out to be something that neither the dealer nor the buyer found out prior to a transaction. Crusty made the conclusion that the dealer knew it was polished - did he?, is it?, but it is in a straight graded holder. Now that this is considered to be polished, PCGS has offered to take it off the market yet crusty did not follow through?
This has happened a couple times with my favorite go to dealer, and it cost me but that is okay because like shish, he was selling the coins within the market variables at the time I purchased them. One turned out to be worth 1/5 of my purchase price, but he was selling and I was buying a pedigreed coin at the time where market hype for that pedigree was high, now it is not. Not his fault, not mine, but lesson learned by me. One of these turned out to be cleaned heavily - it took a CAC visit and discussion to find realize that, but I was responsible just as much as the dealer was for missing that at the time of the transaction. If I ever sell both coins I take a bath, but I am not going to call out a dealer when the mistake is just as much mine and realize we have a 100 positive transactions to go on. I point these out so maybe crusty can see that this is not a perfect science selling and buying coins even when the dealer is sincere and honest as shish shows he is.
So as I said to crusty in his thread, sheesh, learn from this because it was inexpensive tuition and made you a better LSD collector. I add here, but don't blame the dealer for one transaction that both of you missed an issue for the coin at the time of the deal.
Best, SH
As Scooby-Doo would say. RUH-ROW!
Commercial relationships with friends can be difficult. At some point, commercial interest and friendship can clash.
I have learned, in my lifetime, that there is NEVER 2 sides to the story. There is ALWAYS he said, she said, and somewhere in-between, the true story.
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
I applaud the OP for stating his case. He has every right to do so and it isn't always easy to do. One sided stories are always to be taken with a grain of salt.
I have no opinion on the coin or any of the personal interactions.
To me, selling that coin without disclosing the problematic issues that the seller is 100% convinced of is completely wrong and telling.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Well now it appears some other unknowing poor sap is the new owner of a $900 polished coin. Shame it wasn't represented as what the most recent seller knew about it. Seems shady in my opinion.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
What if it gets a bean.
I am attaching the proper way to describe a problem coin to a friend.... I’m hoping Shish learns from this.... PCGS buys coins at there price guide not whatever you say you paid for it. Besides it was already up for auction when I spoke with Brett(who BTW is awesome). I took my loss and moved on with my lesson learned. I’m now sharing my knowledge with others that are willing to accept it.
"This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! The highest auction price for this date/grade ever.... " Quoted from his description in ebay when selling recently. Is this supposed to build value of what he is selling?
I find it interesting that he chose to sell on ebay rather than take the offer of a minimum of $1300 OR to have PCGS take a look and possibly remove from the market.
Apparently, it had already been listed for sale on EBay before PCGS was made aware of the situation and offered to take a look at it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld : I see that now, as our posts were made at the same time. By an earlier poster's estimation apparently he did receive what is the "market value" for the coin at present in his ebay sale.
That was a most honorable way to address a question about the coin. However, you apparently failed to make bidders (who didn’t inquire) aware of such information.
On a somewhat related matter - you have posted some very nice and original looking coins from your set.👍
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It would be interesting to see what is the general consensus of the other $25k (if I recalled) worth of coins Crusty brought from the OP viewed as.
The fact that Pickwickjr picked out this and another coin as "dog" from Crusty's collection suggested a honest mistake, if at all, from all parties involved.
Crusty was given an accurate detailed description of this coin. Below is his Ebay description.
1859-P $1 PCGS XF45 Seated Liberty Dollar (Extremely tough date)
You don’t come across this date very often.... underrated date to the series. This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! The highest auction price for this date/grade ever.... The coin pictured is the exact coin you will receive. Please bid with confidence. I have 100% feedback and ship USPS priority mail with tracking and signature required for both parties protection. Please don’t bid if you have negative feedback!!! Also please ask any questions before bidding. Authenticity can be easily verified by searching the PCGS cert look up on their website.
@Boosibri can help you here.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Musing about this, it occurs to me that I have several dealer-friends who have sold me a bunch of stuff over the years. Some of these coins became my favorites, some upgraded, some were sold for a nice profit, some failed to sticker, some turned out to be dogs, and some were huge mistakes. C’est la vie.
If you’re so heavily leveraged or “invested” in the hobby that you can’t financially or emotionally take a few hits now and then, it might be good to stay a bit further back from the edge of the cliff. If it ever was a true friendship, it seems pretty sad for it to have gone belly up over a few hundred bucks.
Finally, not in reference to this situation, but where are all the threads about someone sharing a windfall when a coin was later found to be much more valuable than it was thought to be? All of this gets pretty one-sided sometimes. Life is risky.
The coin sold for what it should have sold for the first time. It went for pcgs price guide.... that’s what the market says it’s worth. it would have sold for that same amount(or close to it) I got from eBay if I had dumped it on GC or Heritage. That’s what they sell for .... eBay was the quickest way to erase the coin from memory. Whoever reached out to me about the coin was told not to buy or bid.... I sleep well at night knowing it . I also decided to make that thread on PCGS forum while the auction was live. I got several people here on the boards who messaged me and they were also told YES that’s the coin . How much more can you do. I didnt write an awesome description and didn’t talk the coin up one bit.... And yes there is a difference if someone is mentoring and selling to a friend and a total stranger on eBay. I told members here that PMd me not to buy the coin they saw on eBay.
I explained in my original post that I was also in the wrong because I didn’t learn enough and trusted him . That is a lesson learned and won’t happen again. I have bought from many dealers and have really only once returned a coin (literally upon opening it) I can take a financial hit and obviously have. I am hoping others that can’t learn from this ...
“Bid with confidence “ was a little much in my opinion.
Also stating it should have been sold to you 2 years ago at today’s eBay price is unfair.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Sugar Smacks are now called Honey Smacks (and have been for 20-30 years) and yes are available for your early morning forum munching pleasure
Latin American Collection
The only two coins I didn’t like were the 59 and 67. I liked all the other coins. When you trust a friend and find out you’ve been taken it sucks.
I appreciate everyone’s opinion. You guys now know who the friend was.... If you choose to do business with him that is up to you. But beware if you are offered a coin and you see this... When I questioned the specialist about it. I was told it was "water stains" This was on a XF 59s that was rejected by CAC offered to me at the buddy price of 4300.... boy I’m glad I passed....
And this is why I steered my children away from numismatics. They can thank me later.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
the old saying goes" you can't make everyone happy"
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3dmaZrJx15TbvKPc7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ncjfMXoPabRGoNk27
Silverpop- That saying is very true. But has nothing to do with a specialist taking advantage of a friends lack of knowledge.