@1peter1223 said: " This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! "
That above line in Ebay listing is what did it for me . Trying to HYPE ( 3 exclamation marks ? ) up the coins value by injecting that into description . Knowing very well some beloved the coin might possibly be polished .
That is not hype.... That is fact it sold for 1800. I took the hit and moved on. And wouldn’t dream of selling her to a friend.
@1peter1223 said: " This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! "
That above line in Ebay listing is what did it for me . Trying to HYPE ( 3 exclamation marks ? ) up the coins value by injecting that into description . Knowing very well some beloved the coin might possibly be polished .
That is not hype.... That is fact it sold for 1800. I took the hit and moved on. And wouldn’t dream of selling her to a friend.
You took the hit then turned around and rooked someone else. You should have disclosed the issue in your auction.
In fact at this point you are the only one in the entire story that we know for certain knew the coin had a problem but chose to present and sell as problem free. That's sad man.
@1peter1223 said: " This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! "
That above line in Ebay listing is what did it for me . Trying to HYPE ( 3 exclamation marks ? ) up the coins value by injecting that into description . Knowing very well some beloved the coin might possibly be polished .
That is not hype.... That is fact it sold for 1800. I took the hit and moved on. And wouldn’t dream of selling her to a friend.
Why is it okay to deceive someone who isn't a friend?
While you may feel betrayed by a friend, that is a bit separate from the ethics of the situation. You knowingly and willingly deceived the public for personal gain. That cannot be considered ethical behavior even if you didn't deceive a "friend".
@1peter1223 said: " This one last sold at a Kagins auction for over $1800 !!! "
That above line in Ebay listing is what did it for me . Trying to HYPE ( 3 exclamation marks ? ) up the coins value by injecting that into description . Knowing very well some beloved the coin might possibly be polished .
That is not hype.... That is fact it sold for 1800. I took the hit and moved on. And wouldn’t dream of selling her to a friend.
What difference does it make if you sold it to a friend or an "unsuspecting buyer" when you had full knowledge of a problem and did not disclose it? Your best option was to end the auction and either take the $1300 or send it to pcgs.
I think this will be the weekend drama thread!
I wish the coin was never holdered but it was deemed market acceptable. I don’t really like the whole market acceptable grading standards but I sold it for a market acceptable price and did not talk the coin up or talk the coin down. I stated the last auction appearance so people knew it’s history and could look up other photos from the auction house. I expressed to everyone who inquired about the coin to not bid or buy it. This is much more than most would have done. And much more than my mentor did for me. The dealer that bought it from me on eBay is happy with it and has left positive feedback. They walked into equity on the coin and can turn a profit immediately. I think this transaction on eBay was the way
Dstang
When seatedman bought the lsd in a business strike holder that was actually a proof why didn’t you take it back. Your friend was rather upset when he found out? You wouldn’t even give him credit.
So both crusty and the specialist were wrong for selling the coin. Along with the auction firm that didn’t disclose the problem to seatedman when he called.
Interesting with the 1859s with water stains. Must have been swamp water from Alabama 😎
You never described the issues in the ebay auction but only to one inquirer.
You could have pulled the auction and sent it to Brett, auction withdrawals on ebay happen all of the time. If PCGS agrees they could have removed the coin from the graded holder and gave you fair value for it.
So instead you sold it to a dealer who has no knowledge of the issues you feel are problematic probably (or does not care) so he can flip it to someone else.
This coin will likely now cycle to someone else who has no knowledge of the issues when the dealer sells it to them.
All of this after you called out shish here on the boards for questionable character for your previous transaction with him on this coin.
Considering the constant in this equation; a fool and their money are soon parted. I would conclude the variable here as in most cases is the amount separated and the validity of the transaction.
To these eyes, the self proclaimed clueless should look not at the few hundred lost (very common in the hobby) but the collection filled with not mistakes where the out comes might fair better. Wouldn’t that be the holistic view of the relationship? What he is really doing is claiming “I am a helpless collector and I some how ended up a few percentage back on a C coin”. Sounds spoiled and clueless
Also people you send thousands of dollars to aren’t friends, they are friendly. Grown men should know that, you are lucky you didn’t come across a real shark when you are the one chumming the water.
@spacehayduke said:
1. You never described the issues in the ebay auction but only to one inquirer.
2. You could have pulled the auction and sent it to Brett, auction withdrawals on ebay happen all of the time. If PCGS agrees they could have removed the coin from the graded holder and gave you fair value for it.
3. So instead you sold it to a dealer who has no knowledge of the issues you feel are problematic probably (or does not care) so he can flip it to someone else.
4. This coin will likely now cycle to someone else who has no knowledge of the issues when the dealer sells it to them.
5. All of this after you called out shish here on the boards for questionable character for your previous transaction with him on this coin.
6. Hmm.........
Just sayin'...........
1It was not to just to one inquirer. Like I said several PMs here were sent to people who reached out.
2 I have never ended an auction early but that probably would have been the best thing to do. I would prefer the coin not be in a holder at all. Taking the pcgs market value would have been the same as what I got on eBay but at least the next buyer would not have the potential to be taken for a ride.
3 your point is taken. I’m going to send the dealer an note and ask if he wants to return the coin. I actually hope he does return it
4 I’m going to try and get the coin back to avoid this.
5 I purposely never used his name publicly. I would never show all the PMs I got from forum members who already knew who I was talking about because they have dealt with him previously. I wanted others to learn from my situation and found out via PM that I was not the first. He has taken advantage of other friends and forum members and wanted others to be careful putting total trust into a mentor or at least ask around about that mentor.
I have learned a tremendous amount and continue to learn from this whole situation and appreciate all the input. I only have 3 more dates needed to complete my set now and I have begun to shift my focus onto another series. I live and learn as I go.
Edit: not sure why this post came out with different fonts? Not sure how to change it.
Message has been sent. I really do hope he returns it so I can send to Brett. There is a lot of big talk going on but it’s hard to find people that back it up.
I've read the OP from both threads (this one and the recently closed thread) and will give my opinions on this...er...mess.
First however, I will state that I have known shish for many years, have had dinner with him and have both bought coins from him and sold coins to him during this time. He has asked for, and received, my mentorship on certain niche areas I am more familiar with such as US Mint Set coins from the 1947-1958 era and on Washington quarters while he has graciously taken out scores of Seated Liberty dollars and we have had good natured banter while I point out what I don't like about the surfaces of the vast majority of this series while he explains the realities of how these are found and what the TPGs accept and do not accept. Therefore, I would consider shish a friend of mine and also someone I conduct business with from time-to-time. As for Crusty, I do not believe I know him, unless I know him and don't know his user ID, but he appears to be someone striving to build a great set and who also has a deep well of passion. I would have no issue with getting to know Crusty better.
I've gone into these threads assuming there are certain elements of truth in each post and certain elements of emotionally driven interpretation. Given that, there are a few things that I will point out that really stuck with me. Firstly, Crusty states in his OP that he spent the first year of his collecting history buying dipped and/or lightly cleaned coins and then moved over to darker coins. It seems in both phases that there was a fairly high velocity of acquisition, which means that a fair bit of money was being spent since these coins are not exactly inexpensive. The third phase moves into a relationship with shish where the velocity might have continued unabated. The following might be a trivial point, but it gnaws at me and that point is how someone could view themselves as a novice yet still buy big coins at a high rate of speed over the period of at least three years. It bothers me. In my opinion, you have to discard the "novice" moniker or defense if you go through three major phases of acquisition. It might not bother others, but I find it disingenuous.
Pickwickjr seems to have gotten the ball rolling with respect to this being a bad coin, but I find it interesting that I did not see that Pickwickjr flagged other purchases from shish. Given a $25k budget over two years, I would suspect that if a dealer were attempting to bury a client in a dog coin that there would be numerous examples. Perhaps there were more examples listed later on, but all the posts in two different threads have clouded my recall and I am attempting to stay largely within the OP posts of Crusty and shish. Given what I have read and recall, this coin screams "mistake" and not "railroaded".
From then on, I must admit, I read Crusty's thread as more emotion fueled than anything else. I have no doubt Crusty took this hard, but there were numerous solutions present in real-time that would have avoided these threads. It is easy to sit here and point these things out in hindsight and much more difficult to recognize the opportunity when it happens in the moment, but the coin could have been sold back to the dealer prior to shish for $1k, it could have gone to shish for $1.3k or more and it could have been submitted to PCGS. Instead, it was listed on ebay.
The ebay listing I find problematic in that it is not consistent with the heartfelt cry of deception in the OP. Crusty might have answered individual requests with terrific honesty, but the listing was more than a little deceptive, in my opinion. Fair or not, this skews everything that I had read from Crusty because I can see in his own words and actions that details can be left out and information can be massaged to fit the goal. I realize this might not be the case universally, but it is all I can go by.
Shish's OP states how he would not take the coin back at full price after two years, even after he was able to inspect it himself and seems to have agreed with the "problem-coin" title. Some dealers can and will take a coin back for refund after such a long time, but the great majority would not and, in truth, I find no issue with telling someone two years is too long. Perhaps if the coin were sent to shish for examination and possible refund prior to the other events (multiple phone calls complaining about the deal, walking the floor at a show with the coin, getting other offers, etc...) shish might have been more amenable to a refund or to a higher percentage refund. However, deals are not done in a vacuum and everything leading up to a deal can affect the deal.
My take on this is that Crusty invested far more than simply money into his coins and placed a fair bit of emotion in them, too, which then ignited a feeling of betrayal when in reality it might have been more likely a mistake. The actions that followed did not yield a satisfactory ending for either party, but in my opinion reflected much more negatively on Crusty than on shish. Regardless, I don't believe either went out with the goal of hurting someone else. These threads do not change my opinion of shish and I would still be happy to get to know Crusty.
Tom
That’s because I had over 40k in shish’s coins in my SDB that I was running through cac for him. So I saw that coin first hand. If I saw the 1859 dollar I would have told him not to buy it. I’m sure shish will tell you I had seen that coin and the others that were mailed to me.
You should ask shish if he called or group texted his friends daily. I’m sure there won’t be any denial there.
@Crusty said:
Message has been sent. I really do hope he returns it so I can send to Brett. There is a lot of big talk going on but it’s hard to find people that back it up.
oh dear. What happens if the new owner claims that there is no cleaning and likes the coin? Then we'll have a dissenting opinion.
I appreciate your thorough response. I have said all I can say regarding this particular coin deal. I have grown to love this series with a deep passion. I do have a lot of emotion surrounding my set because it’s taken a lot of time, sweat and money to get her to this point. When I do something I usually go full force. My set would not be what it is today if I didn’t truly love the series. I have no regrets about choosing this series but in hindsight would have been more cautious about how I interacted with Shish. I really should have looked at him as a just a dealer trying to make money. That’s where the big issue is. I have said it many times part of the blame is on me. I didn’t educate myself enough. Why did I jump into the series trusting others... I give trust until it has been taken advantage of. How could I view myself as a novice and buy big coins??? I fell in love with the series and while it is an expensive one it was within my budget(at least that’s what I thought) . Hindsight is always 20/20. I would never ask a dealer to take a coin back after the return policy but I felt this was a different situation given the nature of the relationship. He obviously saw it differently... Like I said I’m almost done with this set and Look forward to a new challenge. When it’s all done I’ll have my set, some good friends and also a network of dealers that have been awesome to deal with that I would recommend to others.
@TomB said:
I've read the OP from both threads (this one and the recently closed thread) and will give my opinions on this...er...mess.
First however, I will state that I have known shish for many years, have had dinner with him and have both bought coins from him and sold coins to him during this time. He has asked for, and received, my mentorship on certain niche areas I am more familiar with such as US Mint Set coins from the 1947-1958 era and on Washington quarters while he has graciously taken out scores of Seated Liberty dollars and we have had good natured banter while I point out what I don't like about the surfaces of the vast majority of this series while he explains the realities of how these are found and what the TPGs accept and do not accept. Therefore, I would consider shish a friend of mine and also someone I conduct business with from time-to-time. As for Crusty, I do not believe I know him, unless I know him and don't know his user ID, but he appears to be someone striving to build a great set and who also has a deep well of passion. I would have no issue with getting to know Crusty better.
I've gone into these threads assuming there are certain elements of truth in each post and certain elements of emotionally driven interpretation. Given that, there are a few things that I will point out that really stuck with me. Firstly, Crusty states in his OP that he spent the first year of his collecting history buying dipped and/or lightly cleaned coins and then moved over to darker coins. It seems in both phases that there was a fairly high velocity of acquisition, which means that a fair bit of money was being spent since these coins are not exactly inexpensive. The third phase moves into a relationship with shish where the velocity might have continued unabated. The following might be a trivial point, but it gnaws at me and that point is how someone could view themselves as a novice yet still buy big coins at a high rate of speed over the period of at least three years. It bothers me. In my opinion, you have to discard the "novice" moniker or defense if you go through three major phases of acquisition. It might not bother others, but I find it disingenuous.
Pickwickjr seems to have gotten the ball rolling with respect to this being a bad coin, but I find it interesting that I did not see that Pickwickjr flagged other purchases from shish. Given a $25k budget over two years, I would suspect that if a dealer were attempting to bury a client in a dog coin that there would be numerous examples. Perhaps there were more examples listed later on, but all the posts in two different threads have clouded my recall and I am attempting to stay largely within the OP posts of Crusty and shish. Given what I have read and recall, this coin screams "mistake" and not "railroaded".
From then on, I must admit, I read Crusty's thread as more emotion fueled than anything else. I have no doubt Crusty took this hard, but there were numerous solutions present in real-time that would have avoided these threads. It is easy to sit here and point these things out in hindsight and much more difficult to recognize the opportunity when it happens in the moment, but the coin could have been sold back to the dealer prior to shish for $1k, it could have gone to shish for $1.3k or more and it could have been submitted to PCGS. Instead, it was listed on ebay.
The ebay listing I find problematic in that it is not consistent with the heartfelt cry of deception in the OP. Crusty might have answered individual requests with terrific honesty, but the listing was more than a little deceptive, in my opinion. Fair or not, this skews everything that I had read from Crusty because I can see in his own words and actions that details can be left out and information can be massaged to fit the goal. I realize this might not be the case universally, but it is all I can go by.
Shish's OP states how he would not take the coin back at full price after two years, even after he was able to inspect it himself and seems to have agreed with the "problem-coin" title. Some dealers can and will take a coin back for refund after such a long time, but the great majority would not and, in truth, I find no issue with telling someone two years is too long. Perhaps if the coin were sent to shish for examination and possible refund prior to the other events (multiple phone calls complaining about the deal, walking the floor at a show with the coin, getting other offers, etc...) shish might have been more amenable to a refund or to a higher percentage refund. However, deals are not done in a vacuum and everything leading up to a deal can affect the deal.
My take on this is that Crusty invested far more than simply money into his coins and placed a fair bit of emotion in them, too, which then ignited a feeling of betrayal when in reality it might have been more likely a mistake. The actions that followed did not yield a satisfactory ending for either party, but in my opinion reflected much more negatively on Crusty than on shish. Regardless, I don't believe either went out with the goal of hurting someone else. These threads do not change my opinion of shish and I would still be happy to get to know Crusty.
Tom, thank you for an excellent post, as is typically the case for you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Cac is only an opinion
Shish is only an opinion
PCGS is only an opinion
Crusty is only an opinion
The 1859 is what it is and has a value no matter. Fixation on opinions and how they affect the value of your coin above all else is a path to taking the fun out of the hobby. Spending so much where it is inevitable means you are playing with money that counts and a gambler.
Even the best Gamblers lose hands here and there. They don’t curse out the dealer and stamp off, that’s what a 6 year old does. They keep playing knowing that winning more than they lose is the key to the big pot.
One thing that has served me well in life is when I get taken I try to look inwards instead of out. While it is easy to be bitter, Opportunistic people will always be there and can’t be avoided. The person who just got you laid out the glaring chink in your armor to fix if you take the time to look. In a way they did you a solid. Because if they didn’t the very next person would have until you fix it that is.
@Crypto- How many time do I have to say.... It was a mistake to go in on the series the way I did.... That’s the point of the initial thread. I want others to learn from my mistake. My reply to your gambler analogy is I’m not walking away stomping my feet cursing a the card dealer out. I’m walking away telling others the danger of playing cards with a certain dealer.
Awhile ago before all this transpired I sent you and PM regarding the respect I had for your knowledge of trade dollars because I recognized your passion in some of your post. It was unfortunate to get PMs about how you and Shish tried to take advantage of another forum member . Look inward!!! That’s rich....
I've been burned before in this "hobby." Not in many years that I know of but way back when I was young and dumb. I looked at it as a learning experience. MY FAULT. Do the reasearch. Get wise and move on. If I think someone is a jerk I don't do business with him. And I keep my mouth shut. What's the point of talking about it? Not doing anymore business with the jerk says it all......I got ripped, I know it and so does the jerk. A cold hard stare and no more money changing hands beats whining about something that was caused by my lack of due diligence in the first place. I'd be embarrassed to bring it up. No point.
@Hydrant said:
I've been burned before in this "hobby." Not in many years that I know of but way back when I was young and dumb. I looked at it as a learning experience. MY FAULT. Do the reasearch. Get wise and move on. If I think someone is a jerk I don't do business with him. And I keep my mouth shut. What's the point of talking about it? Not doing anymore business with the jerk says it all......I got ripped, I know it and so does the jerk. A cold hard stare and no more money changing hands beats whining about something that was caused by my lack of due diligence in the first place. I'd be embarrassed to bring it up. No point.
Could have kept my mouth shut but many people appreciated the thread. Like I said I was not the first to be in this position with him.
@skier07 said:
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
@Pickwickjr said:
Not sure
Why wasn’t it stated when the coin was sold by the first dealer at auction?
Why wasn’t the coins details stated when sold to a FRIEND by Shish?
Why when suggested by shish after reviewing the coin it was suggested to send it back to pcgs.
Why didn’t Shish send it back himself.
Why oh why we won’t Know.
I know why because the dealer didn’t want to lose money.
Maybe the coin wasn’t polished. But if it was, it’s hypocritical of a buyer/owner to complain that he wasn’t made aware of it, then later offers it for resale, without disclosing it.
Consigning a $17,000 coin to a well known auctioneer, the in house numismatist commented that a staple scratch was evident on the obverse (I had not seen it.) That was not noted in the catalog description.
Plenty of stuff gets omitted in the marketing of rare coins.
@Crusty said: @Crypto- How many time do I have to say.... It was a mistake to go in on the series the way I did.... That’s the point of the initial thread. I want others to learn from my mistake. My reply to your gambler analogy is I’m not walking away stomping my feet cursing a the card dealer out. I’m walking away telling others the danger of playing cards with a certain dealer.
Awhile ago before all this transpired I sent you and PM regarding the respect I had for your knowledge of trade dollars because I recognized your passion in some of your post. It was unfortunate to get PMs about how you and Shish tried to take advantage of another forum member . Look inward!!! That’s rich....
But there it goes again . Playing the victim . Vilifying and Blaming other(s).
Then you list coin on Ebay with out mentioning the possible issue with coin . Even Hyping it with price realized .
That did it for me . All credibility is lost for me at that point .
Like I said big talk ... Had I written what I thought of the coin in the description (Don’t buy or bid on my coin) that would be ridiculous. I let everyone know that I could . I am trying to get the coin back and send to pcgs .
@skier07 said:
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
Was the spiraling downtrend in the rare coin market a factor in your desire to return the coin?
@skier07 said:
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
Was the spiraling downtrend in the rare coin market a factor in your desire to return the coin?
No. I treasure each piece I own. Not worried about a a loss . This is a hobby that I’m passionate about. I wish prices would go down so I can buy more.
Yeah, and I’m sure every female that gets raped, thanks them afterwards as well...
...everyone that gets ropped, says thank you so much for a lesson learned...
...the family of every murderer sends a thank you card and flowers to their attacker...
Thank you so much for knowingly cheating me... I am so thankful...
Every single person on this thread (and also the original) still hasnt captured the fact that both Shish and Crusty had a dually proclaimed close “friend” relationship and also a dually proclaimed mentor/mentee relationship...
The point that all the blind and deaf people continue to acknowledge is that this was not a dealer transaction... at all... no part of it... please quit assessing this situation as a dealer deal.
With the now severed relationship, although clearly everyone has different definitions of what FRIEND and MENTOR means (clearly), its obvious that Crusty trusted Shish and Shish chose to take advantage of and betray that trust. Period.
All is totally fair in love, war, and dealer to seller transactions, and to each his own set of standards, but I for one have learned a lot about the motivations, intentions, and standards of dealings friend to friend through all of this.
See, I know both Crusty and Shish and have had many many conversations with both...
Its also interesting the comparison of the maturity level of the two parties as one is 34 yrs old and one is pushing 65 in a few... one would think the maturity and wisdom of one would be advanced from the other... ironically, pride and greed deive a man many times to remain infantile and selfish...
Its also interesting that the elderly party here is also a proclaimed man of faith and an example (should be, but has failed) to others, but has chosen a less wise, less mature, less Godly path to a “friend and much younger person being mentored”
It is very obvious that expectations and definition of friendship didnt ever align here and used the term “friend” and this thing called “trust” for personal gain since the 30 years of experience failed to identify a less than PQ, market acceptable at best coin that was probably only worth the $1300 in the first place.
BTW, market acceptable coins in slabs are sold from dealers and also friends every day... for the price range they deserve... I woulda paid $900 bucks for the C+ coin as well, but not $1800 and def not $2150... if one of my “friends” and “mentors” tried to bend me over like that and over talk, over sell, a below average coin and make it out to seem like he was doing me a solid, as soon as I wised up, our friendship would be over...
Dont pee on me and tell me it’s raining... especially when you proclaim to be helping me and looking out for me... no thank you. I will not have friends like that. Period. And that’s the point.
If you wanna do deals with Shish, be his friend, let him mentor you and write articles to “help” young collectors, be my guest...
...but you better proceed with caution in all categories as “you will know a tree by its fruit” and the fruit has been revealed.
You also dont have character because of your words or intentions... you have character because of youractions... character is who you are when no one is looking... not in public forum...
Shish... with all your vast wisdom, years of experience, collector knowledge, your faith, and all you proclaim and probably strive to be... I am personally dissapointed in you.
I suggested how I thought you should have handled these situations as the elder of the group regardless of who is right or wrong, but you had too much pride and selfish motivations... money truly is the route of all evil...
You lost 4 friends over a few hundred bucks by failing to be the older, wiser, faith filled person...
Some people never learn and age doesnt always mean more wisdom, kindness, consideration, or thoughtfulness.
THATS why I haven’t answered your calls Shish. I don’t need that.
I don’t need friends that say one thing and do another...
When I use the term “friend” I dont just mean it as a good self label, a pride booster, or a conscience box check... I walk it out.
I will pray for you that you learn in your latter years to “not just be a hearer of the Word, but also a doer.”
BTW ...I AM a great example for my children... and not just in word, but in action.
@skier07 said:
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
Was the spiraling downtrend in the rare coin market a factor in your desire to return the coin?
No. I treasure each piece I own. Not worried about a a loss . This is a hobby that I’m passionate about. I wish prices would go down so I can buy more.
Fair enough, Crusty, but if PCGS were to get the coin back for a reconsideration and decide that the grade was incorrect, the buy back amount would be at current market value. The amount that you paid would be irrelevant.
It seems the main takeaways to me are to not confuse business with personal, and if you are going to pay 2x of list price for a coin, either really know what you doing or accept you might get burned (actually probably both...).
@skier07 said:
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
Was the spiraling downtrend in the rare coin market a factor in your desire to return the coin?
No. I treasure each piece I own. Not worried about a a loss . This is a hobby that I’m passionate about. I wish prices would go down so I can buy more.
Fair enough, Crusty, but if PCGS were to get the coin back for a reconsideration and decide that the grade was incorrect, the buy back amount would be at current market value. The amount that you paid would be irrelevant.
Understood. At this point the money means very little. It’s really not about the money.....
@shish said:
Leroybrown I am very disappointed in you! I certainly did not take advantage of or betray Crusty as you allege.
I don’t need vindictive friends that behave like children.
Good luck to you sir.
I am disappointed in Leroy brown calling out the board. We are neither blind nor deaf. For the most part, we have not taken sides nor tried to judge the friendship.
We don't know is what shish knew in his heart at the first transaction. We do know what crusty knew during the second.
I came for the comments and I’m leaving fulfilled. It did not disappoint
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@jmlanzaf said:
We don't know is what shish knew in his heart at the first transaction. We do know what crusty knew during the second.
Of coarse Shish didn’t know in his heart for the first transaction. He was just trying to get rid of a coin he was buried in that he knew was polished. A coin that brought a record high that he couldn’t return because of an auction.
So the writing is clearly on the wall that was the first transaction he ever did with crusty not knowing him.
Became a very close friend with crusty selling him a lot more very nice coins. When Crusty found out he got screwed on the first one the mentor did not make good on the deal.
How come nobody wants to comment on the 1859s with a swamp water stain? Perfect example of a mentor trying to screw him again for a coin at $4700 for an xf45 with Alabama swamp water stains.
If crusty would post some group text Im sure it would be a real eye opener for a few big dogs in the business that were talked about. So The Saint is not so innocent.
@jmlanzaf said:
We don't know is what shish knew in his heart at the first transaction. We do know what crusty knew during the second.
Of coarse Shish didn’t know in his heart for the first transaction. He was just trying to get rid of a coin he was buried in that he knew was polished. A coin that brought a record high that he couldn’t return because of an auction...
And you know those things, how?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Coin would have had to have been a solid AU58 or low BU to be any sort of value at the $2150 price paid.
If the coin were truly undergraded by 2 or 3 increments as indicated by Kagin's or the OP, why was it not resubmitted to PCGS or at least sent in to CAC? That is was an old time collector seems to be a tepid excuse by the auctioneer even though the realized price reflected a significant a premium.
Clearly the buyer is responsible for understanding what he is buying, but I am sympathetic to why he is displeased with the transaction.
Many of the longtime members here have either taken a $1000 hit on a coin or will when they sell. It is tuition. Never fun but always valuable.
Comments
Have you guys considered taking the all of this drama back to the LSD forum?
That is not hype.... That is fact it sold for 1800. I took the hit and moved on. And wouldn’t dream of selling her to a friend.
You took the hit then turned around and rooked someone else. You should have disclosed the issue in your auction.
In fact at this point you are the only one in the entire story that we know for certain knew the coin had a problem but chose to present and sell as problem free. That's sad man.
Why is it okay to deceive someone who isn't a friend?
While you may feel betrayed by a friend, that is a bit separate from the ethics of the situation. You knowingly and willingly deceived the public for personal gain. That cannot be considered ethical behavior even if you didn't deceive a "friend".
What difference does it make if you sold it to a friend or an "unsuspecting buyer" when you had full knowledge of a problem and did not disclose it? Your best option was to end the auction and either take the $1300 or send it to pcgs.
I think this will be the weekend drama thread!
I wish the coin was never holdered but it was deemed market acceptable. I don’t really like the whole market acceptable grading standards but I sold it for a market acceptable price and did not talk the coin up or talk the coin down. I stated the last auction appearance so people knew it’s history and could look up other photos from the auction house. I expressed to everyone who inquired about the coin to not bid or buy it. This is much more than most would have done. And much more than my mentor did for me. The dealer that bought it from me on eBay is happy with it and has left positive feedback. They walked into equity on the coin and can turn a profit immediately. I think this transaction on eBay was the way
Dstang
When seatedman bought the lsd in a business strike holder that was actually a proof why didn’t you take it back. Your friend was rather upset when he found out? You wouldn’t even give him credit.
So both crusty and the specialist were wrong for selling the coin. Along with the auction firm that didn’t disclose the problem to seatedman when he called.
Interesting with the 1859s with water stains. Must have been swamp water from Alabama 😎
So now would anyone like to make a Gentleman's (or Gentlelady) Bet this resurfaces soon with a green CAC sticker?
Yes I'm That Evil!
Just sayin'...........
What's wrong with a little drama here?
Considering the constant in this equation; a fool and their money are soon parted. I would conclude the variable here as in most cases is the amount separated and the validity of the transaction.
To these eyes, the self proclaimed clueless should look not at the few hundred lost (very common in the hobby) but the collection filled with not mistakes where the out comes might fair better. Wouldn’t that be the holistic view of the relationship? What he is really doing is claiming “I am a helpless collector and I some how ended up a few percentage back on a C coin”. Sounds spoiled and clueless
Also people you send thousands of dollars to aren’t friends, they are friendly. Grown men should know that, you are lucky you didn’t come across a real shark when you are the one chumming the water.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Yummy seatedmans favorite pizza spot when over my house. Sorry no Pepporoni today. The girls wanted cheese 😎
So there is only one reasonable settlement;
Settle it the old fashion way; Water pistols at ten paces!Other than that - it is what it is.
1It was not to just to one inquirer. Like I said several PMs here were sent to people who reached out.
2 I have never ended an auction early but that probably would have been the best thing to do. I would prefer the coin not be in a holder at all. Taking the pcgs market value would have been the same as what I got on eBay but at least the next buyer would not have the potential to be taken for a ride.
3 your point is taken. I’m going to send the dealer an note and ask if he wants to return the coin. I actually hope he does return it
4 I’m going to try and get the coin back to avoid this.
5 I purposely never used his name publicly. I would never show all the PMs I got from forum members who already knew who I was talking about because they have dealt with him previously. I wanted others to learn from my situation and found out via PM that I was not the first. He has taken advantage of other friends and forum members and wanted others to be careful putting total trust into a mentor or at least ask around about that mentor.
I have learned a tremendous amount and continue to learn from this whole situation and appreciate all the input. I only have 3 more dates needed to complete my set now and I have begun to shift my focus onto another series. I live and learn as I go.
Edit: not sure why this post came out with different fonts? Not sure how to change it.
I love it 👍🏻
I for one tend to side with the people online that use ALL CAPS or Obnoxious fonts!!!!
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Logic is highly overrated in modern society.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Message has been sent. I really do hope he returns it so I can send to Brett. There is a lot of big talk going on but it’s hard to find people that back it up.
Glad the Michigan game is on late today.
Don’t ask, don’t tell.
Popcorn
Methinks thou dost protest too much......
I've read the OP from both threads (this one and the recently closed thread) and will give my opinions on this...er...mess.
First however, I will state that I have known shish for many years, have had dinner with him and have both bought coins from him and sold coins to him during this time. He has asked for, and received, my mentorship on certain niche areas I am more familiar with such as US Mint Set coins from the 1947-1958 era and on Washington quarters while he has graciously taken out scores of Seated Liberty dollars and we have had good natured banter while I point out what I don't like about the surfaces of the vast majority of this series while he explains the realities of how these are found and what the TPGs accept and do not accept. Therefore, I would consider shish a friend of mine and also someone I conduct business with from time-to-time. As for Crusty, I do not believe I know him, unless I know him and don't know his user ID, but he appears to be someone striving to build a great set and who also has a deep well of passion. I would have no issue with getting to know Crusty better.
I've gone into these threads assuming there are certain elements of truth in each post and certain elements of emotionally driven interpretation. Given that, there are a few things that I will point out that really stuck with me. Firstly, Crusty states in his OP that he spent the first year of his collecting history buying dipped and/or lightly cleaned coins and then moved over to darker coins. It seems in both phases that there was a fairly high velocity of acquisition, which means that a fair bit of money was being spent since these coins are not exactly inexpensive. The third phase moves into a relationship with shish where the velocity might have continued unabated. The following might be a trivial point, but it gnaws at me and that point is how someone could view themselves as a novice yet still buy big coins at a high rate of speed over the period of at least three years. It bothers me. In my opinion, you have to discard the "novice" moniker or defense if you go through three major phases of acquisition. It might not bother others, but I find it disingenuous.
Pickwickjr seems to have gotten the ball rolling with respect to this being a bad coin, but I find it interesting that I did not see that Pickwickjr flagged other purchases from shish. Given a $25k budget over two years, I would suspect that if a dealer were attempting to bury a client in a dog coin that there would be numerous examples. Perhaps there were more examples listed later on, but all the posts in two different threads have clouded my recall and I am attempting to stay largely within the OP posts of Crusty and shish. Given what I have read and recall, this coin screams "mistake" and not "railroaded".
From then on, I must admit, I read Crusty's thread as more emotion fueled than anything else. I have no doubt Crusty took this hard, but there were numerous solutions present in real-time that would have avoided these threads. It is easy to sit here and point these things out in hindsight and much more difficult to recognize the opportunity when it happens in the moment, but the coin could have been sold back to the dealer prior to shish for $1k, it could have gone to shish for $1.3k or more and it could have been submitted to PCGS. Instead, it was listed on ebay.
The ebay listing I find problematic in that it is not consistent with the heartfelt cry of deception in the OP. Crusty might have answered individual requests with terrific honesty, but the listing was more than a little deceptive, in my opinion. Fair or not, this skews everything that I had read from Crusty because I can see in his own words and actions that details can be left out and information can be massaged to fit the goal. I realize this might not be the case universally, but it is all I can go by.
Shish's OP states how he would not take the coin back at full price after two years, even after he was able to inspect it himself and seems to have agreed with the "problem-coin" title. Some dealers can and will take a coin back for refund after such a long time, but the great majority would not and, in truth, I find no issue with telling someone two years is too long. Perhaps if the coin were sent to shish for examination and possible refund prior to the other events (multiple phone calls complaining about the deal, walking the floor at a show with the coin, getting other offers, etc...) shish might have been more amenable to a refund or to a higher percentage refund. However, deals are not done in a vacuum and everything leading up to a deal can affect the deal.
My take on this is that Crusty invested far more than simply money into his coins and placed a fair bit of emotion in them, too, which then ignited a feeling of betrayal when in reality it might have been more likely a mistake. The actions that followed did not yield a satisfactory ending for either party, but in my opinion reflected much more negatively on Crusty than on shish. Regardless, I don't believe either went out with the goal of hurting someone else. These threads do not change my opinion of shish and I would still be happy to get to know Crusty.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
More logic
Tom
That’s because I had over 40k in shish’s coins in my SDB that I was running through cac for him. So I saw that coin first hand. If I saw the 1859 dollar I would have told him not to buy it. I’m sure shish will tell you I had seen that coin and the others that were mailed to me.
You should ask shish if he called or group texted his friends daily. I’m sure there won’t be any denial there.
oh dear. What happens if the new owner claims that there is no cleaning and likes the coin? Then we'll have a dissenting opinion.
TomB
I appreciate your thorough response. I have said all I can say regarding this particular coin deal. I have grown to love this series with a deep passion. I do have a lot of emotion surrounding my set because it’s taken a lot of time, sweat and money to get her to this point. When I do something I usually go full force. My set would not be what it is today if I didn’t truly love the series. I have no regrets about choosing this series but in hindsight would have been more cautious about how I interacted with Shish. I really should have looked at him as a just a dealer trying to make money. That’s where the big issue is. I have said it many times part of the blame is on me. I didn’t educate myself enough. Why did I jump into the series trusting others... I give trust until it has been taken advantage of. How could I view myself as a novice and buy big coins??? I fell in love with the series and while it is an expensive one it was within my budget(at least that’s what I thought) . Hindsight is always 20/20. I would never ask a dealer to take a coin back after the return policy but I felt this was a different situation given the nature of the relationship. He obviously saw it differently... Like I said I’m almost done with this set and Look forward to a new challenge. When it’s all done I’ll have my set, some good friends and also a network of dealers that have been awesome to deal with that I would recommend to others.
Tom, thank you for an excellent post, as is typically the case for you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Tempest in a teapot.
Cac is only an opinion
Shish is only an opinion
PCGS is only an opinion
Crusty is only an opinion
The 1859 is what it is and has a value no matter. Fixation on opinions and how they affect the value of your coin above all else is a path to taking the fun out of the hobby. Spending so much where it is inevitable means you are playing with money that counts and a gambler.
Even the best Gamblers lose hands here and there. They don’t curse out the dealer and stamp off, that’s what a 6 year old does. They keep playing knowing that winning more than they lose is the key to the big pot.
One thing that has served me well in life is when I get taken I try to look inwards instead of out. While it is easy to be bitter, Opportunistic people will always be there and can’t be avoided. The person who just got you laid out the glaring chink in your armor to fix if you take the time to look. In a way they did you a solid. Because if they didn’t the very next person would have until you fix it that is.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@Crypto- How many time do I have to say.... It was a mistake to go in on the series the way I did.... That’s the point of the initial thread. I want others to learn from my mistake. My reply to your gambler analogy is I’m not walking away stomping my feet cursing a the card dealer out. I’m walking away telling others the danger of playing cards with a certain dealer.
Awhile ago before all this transpired I sent you and PM regarding the respect I had for your knowledge of trade dollars because I recognized your passion in some of your post. It was unfortunate to get PMs about how you and Shish tried to take advantage of another forum member . Look inward!!! That’s rich....
My two cents and I’m confused and dumbfounded.
Dealer buys coin for $1800 at an auction and sells it for $2100 for a $300 profit.
Buyer has return privilege upon receipt of coin and he keeps the coin.
Two years later buyer decides that he wants to return the coin to dealer for a full refund.
WTF? Something doesn’t sound right. Is dealer suppose to accept returns indefinitely?
I've been burned before in this "hobby." Not in many years that I know of but way back when I was young and dumb. I looked at it as a learning experience. MY FAULT. Do the reasearch. Get wise and move on. If I think someone is a jerk I don't do business with him. And I keep my mouth shut. What's the point of talking about it? Not doing anymore business with the jerk says it all......I got ripped, I know it and so does the jerk. A cold hard stare and no more money changing hands beats whining about something that was caused by my lack of due diligence in the first place. I'd be embarrassed to bring it up. No point.
Could have kept my mouth shut but many people appreciated the thread. Like I said I was not the first to be in this position with him.
Not a dealer.... a wanna be dealer. Whoever has read the thread and wants to continue to do business or start to do business with him by all means have at it
Consigning a $17,000 coin to a well known auctioneer, the in house numismatist commented that a staple scratch was evident on the obverse (I had not seen it.) That was not noted in the catalog description.
Plenty of stuff gets omitted in the marketing of rare coins.
I’ve made many many mistakes and I always blame myself.
Like I said big talk ... Had I written what I thought of the coin in the description (Don’t buy or bid on my coin) that would be ridiculous. I let everyone know that I could . I am trying to get the coin back and send to pcgs .
Was the spiraling downtrend in the rare coin market a factor in your desire to return the coin?
No. I treasure each piece I own. Not worried about a a loss . This is a hobby that I’m passionate about. I wish prices would go down so I can buy more.
Yeah, and I’m sure every female that gets raped, thanks them afterwards as well...
...everyone that gets ropped, says thank you so much for a lesson learned...
...the family of every murderer sends a thank you card and flowers to their attacker...
Thank you so much for knowingly cheating me... I am so thankful...
Every single person on this thread (and also the original) still hasnt captured the fact that both Shish and Crusty had a dually proclaimed close “friend” relationship and also a dually proclaimed mentor/mentee relationship...
The point that all the blind and deaf people continue to acknowledge is that this was not a dealer transaction... at all... no part of it... please quit assessing this situation as a dealer deal.
With the now severed relationship, although clearly everyone has different definitions of what FRIEND and MENTOR means (clearly), its obvious that Crusty trusted Shish and Shish chose to take advantage of and betray that trust. Period.
All is totally fair in love, war, and dealer to seller transactions, and to each his own set of standards, but I for one have learned a lot about the motivations, intentions, and standards of dealings friend to friend through all of this.
See, I know both Crusty and Shish and have had many many conversations with both...
Its also interesting the comparison of the maturity level of the two parties as one is 34 yrs old and one is pushing 65 in a few... one would think the maturity and wisdom of one would be advanced from the other... ironically, pride and greed deive a man many times to remain infantile and selfish...
Its also interesting that the elderly party here is also a proclaimed man of faith and an example (should be, but has failed) to others, but has chosen a less wise, less mature, less Godly path to a “friend and much younger person being mentored”
It is very obvious that expectations and definition of friendship didnt ever align here and used the term “friend” and this thing called “trust” for personal gain since the 30 years of experience failed to identify a less than PQ, market acceptable at best coin that was probably only worth the $1300 in the first place.
BTW, market acceptable coins in slabs are sold from dealers and also friends every day... for the price range they deserve... I woulda paid $900 bucks for the C+ coin as well, but not $1800 and def not $2150... if one of my “friends” and “mentors” tried to bend me over like that and over talk, over sell, a below average coin and make it out to seem like he was doing me a solid, as soon as I wised up, our friendship would be over...
Dont pee on me and tell me it’s raining... especially when you proclaim to be helping me and looking out for me... no thank you. I will not have friends like that. Period. And that’s the point.
If you wanna do deals with Shish, be his friend, let him mentor you and write articles to “help” young collectors, be my guest...
...but you better proceed with caution in all categories as “you will know a tree by its fruit” and the fruit has been revealed.
You also dont have character because of your words or intentions... you have character because of youractions... character is who you are when no one is looking... not in public forum...
Shish... with all your vast wisdom, years of experience, collector knowledge, your faith, and all you proclaim and probably strive to be... I am personally dissapointed in you.
I suggested how I thought you should have handled these situations as the elder of the group regardless of who is right or wrong, but you had too much pride and selfish motivations... money truly is the route of all evil...
You lost 4 friends over a few hundred bucks by failing to be the older, wiser, faith filled person...
Some people never learn and age doesnt always mean more wisdom, kindness, consideration, or thoughtfulness.
THATS why I haven’t answered your calls Shish. I don’t need that.
I don’t need friends that say one thing and do another...
When I use the term “friend” I dont just mean it as a good self label, a pride booster, or a conscience box check... I walk it out.
I will pray for you that you learn in your latter years to “not just be a hearer of the Word, but also a doer.”
BTW ...I AM a great example for my children... and not just in word, but in action.
Good luck to you sir.
Fair enough, Crusty, but if PCGS were to get the coin back for a reconsideration and decide that the grade was incorrect, the buy back amount would be at current market value. The amount that you paid would be irrelevant.
It seems the main takeaways to me are to not confuse business with personal, and if you are going to pay 2x of list price for a coin, either really know what you doing or accept you might get burned (actually probably both...).
Understood. At this point the money means very little. It’s really not about the money.....
Stick a fork in it. At this point we're beating a dead horse.
Leroybrown I am very disappointed in you! I certainly did not take advantage of or betray Crusty as you allege.
I don’t need vindictive friends that behave like children.
Good luck to you sir.
I am disappointed in Leroy brown calling out the board. We are neither blind nor deaf. For the most part, we have not taken sides nor tried to judge the friendship.
We don't know is what shish knew in his heart at the first transaction. We do know what crusty knew during the second.
I came for the comments and I’m leaving fulfilled. It did not disappoint
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Of coarse Shish didn’t know in his heart for the first transaction. He was just trying to get rid of a coin he was buried in that he knew was polished. A coin that brought a record high that he couldn’t return because of an auction.
So the writing is clearly on the wall that was the first transaction he ever did with crusty not knowing him.
Became a very close friend with crusty selling him a lot more very nice coins. When Crusty found out he got screwed on the first one the mentor did not make good on the deal.
How come nobody wants to comment on the 1859s with a swamp water stain? Perfect example of a mentor trying to screw him again for a coin at $4700 for an xf45 with Alabama swamp water stains.
If crusty would post some group text Im sure it would be a real eye opener for a few big dogs in the business that were talked about. So The Saint is not so innocent.
And you know those things, how?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
After a bit of research i am scratching my head a bit.
The Kagin's price was quite rich for the coin and grade at $1828 in an XF45 holder.
Sales just before that included (all Heritage).
1-2017 AU55....$1175
1-2017 XF45.....$881
8-2017 AU50....$940
Coin would have had to have been a solid AU58 or low BU to be any sort of value at the $2150 price paid.
If the coin were truly undergraded by 2 or 3 increments as indicated by Kagin's or the OP, why was it not resubmitted to PCGS or at least sent in to CAC? That is was an old time collector seems to be a tepid excuse by the auctioneer even though the realized price reflected a significant a premium.
Clearly the buyer is responsible for understanding what he is buying, but I am sympathetic to why he is displeased with the transaction.
Many of the longtime members here have either taken a $1000 hit on a coin or will when they sell. It is tuition. Never fun but always valuable.