Burned by a so called Liberty Seated Dollar specialist
Crusty
Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
I’d like to pass along a lesson I learned recently. From a so called Liberty Seated Dollar specialist with 30 years of experience. It’s a small "Seated Dollar world" and I feel it my duty to warn others of the problem I found myself in because it can certainly happen to any novice collector who is just starting out.
First some background.... I started collecting coins (Seated Dollars) in Dec of 2016. I didn’t know a whole lot about coins but decided to go the Seated route because I loved the large size and design of the coin. The rarity compared to Morgan Dollars is what really made me feel I was making the right call. For the first year I was totally isolated and did not know anyone else who was collecting coins let alone dollars... Let’s just say my coins were not original and had all been cleaned . They were all straight graded in PCGS and NGC plastic and deemed market acceptable. At the time I had no clue what market acceptable was. I just assumed the experts said it was good so I tried to find the best deals I could to quickly fill my date and mint mark set. I had never gone to a show and was limited to what I could find online. Over the course of the year my interest grew stronger and stronger and I started to research online for hours daily (ask my wife). I came across posts regarding original surfaces and how much harder it was to find them original. I still had no clue what an original surface looked like. I thought if the coin was darker it meant it was original.... so I started to buy darker coins when I was able to and sold off the original coins as I originally purchased. But as you all know just because a coin is dark doesn’t make it original. I was headed in the right direction but in reality was still way off. But in December of 2017 things changed dramatically .
I sold off a handful of Seated dollars on eBay and received private messages from Pickwickjr & LeeroyBrown ( true friends and coin mentors). Pickwickjr sent me a message and asked if I was a Seated Dollar collector and if I was a member of the LSCC. We exchanged contact information and we spoke in great length about my coin collection and what my goals were . It was and still is amazing to have a couple coin buddies that share the same passion for coins. Pickwickjr was building his set and only needed (1) coin to finish his set... The elusive 1852. I was in awe when I saw pics of his coins. It was incredible and my first shot to see some close ups of some coins with choice surfaces. When I asked him where he bought his coins from he listed off a few dealers and told me about his "friend" that was an LSCC member with 30 years of experience that was a vest pocket dealer. He put me in contact with him.
I quickly called him and became acquainted. It was not long before this snake was offering to help me build my collection. I asked what he had available and he offered up a couple potential coins. One of them was a 59p. But he wasn’t sure if he could part with the 59p because it was "incredible/original/best 59p he had seen in over a decade" By the time I got off the phone I had to have it. But I was unsure how he could give up such a tough "incredible" coin... I typically don’t have that type of awesome luck to have such an incredible coin. He had to think it over and would let me know if he came up with a number that he could live with. But warned me it would not be cheap.... because of all the great things he told me about the coin... plus his self proclaimed title of being an expert in the series made me feel like no matter the cost it would be a coin worth stretching for. After all... he said he stands behind every coin he sells and only releases his prized Seated dollars to his close friends. He loves helping novices build choice dollar sets. I thought to myself "sign me up". He called me the following day and gave me the price $2,150+$35 shipping.... I needed an oxygen tank to catch my breath.... I was way pcgs list price was less than 1k.... He explained that coins like this take a decade or more to find the quality this coin has. He said he bought it from an old timer dealer and paid up for it because it was really an AU55 but had a week strike and the new graders didn’t know what they were doing when they graded the coin. "Trust me" I’ve been doing this for 30 years .... If you want to have deeply toned incredible original coins you need to pay up otherwise you’ll be a price buyer... He proceeded to tell me about a friend he has that built a Seated dollar set but was a price buyer and doesn’t have choice coins and what a big mistake he made and how his friend really regrets not paying up. I decided to pay the price and get my choice original set started on the right track.
I received the coin in the mail and was thrilled to finally get her in person. I Could not believe I had such a rare coin. I thought to myself my 59p would never have to be upgraded. I compared it to the other coins in my set and saw that it had deep dark champagne colored toning when it hit the light. The rims were perfect as promised but was not sure why it was shiny compared to my others? I figured it was proof like? I had never seen a proof like Seated Dollar. So I called the "specialist " he explained how it’s rare to find proof like surfaces on Seated Dollars and that was part of the reason it was so hard to let her go. I trusted him and was happy and truly felt lucky to own her...
We spoke almost every other day over the next 1 1/2 years... He would tell me tales of coins he had sold that he regretted, dealers that I should stay away from, LSCC politics, family ,politics, coin shows he had been to, auctions he had won, old timers who he has first shot with when they decide to sell ,etc .... you name it we discussed it. I spoke highly of him to others and took him at his word no matter the issue. Over that short time I have spent well over 25k with "my friend”.Payed up for everything I got from him. Never thought for a second he would ever burn me. After all when a guy has such a good name in the business....how could I go wrong?
It wasn’t until recently when I was able to finally meet Pickwickjr in person that I found out my 59p was a dog. He pulled it out of the box and said you need to upgrade this one badly.... What? Why? I asked... It’s been polished and retoned.... But our friend said it was proof like? He looked at me an said I don’t even need my loupe to see it.... It’s so obvious. I was puzzled... We were running out of time before I had to leave I wanted him to get through the rest of my coins. So we just moved on . When I got home I called our mutual "friend" and told him what Pickwickjr said about the 59p and he replied I’m shocked he doesn’t like it. It’s the best coin I’ve seen in over a decade and it is definitely proof like.
At this point it was time to take it to the big coin show to take it around to the experts. Without giving out background details. I asked a simple question is this coin proof like or is it polished. I showed the coin to dealer#1 who has extensive knowledge on dollars . He looked at it and said it’s been cleaned ,polished and retoned. I moved over to the Heritage table and asked the guy working the booth the big question and he said "I’m not a dollar guy but this is definitely polished " This time I asked how he knew so quickly. He went on to explain that prooflike coins are prooflike in the fields not on Mrs Liberty and all the devices. His simple explanation made it clear I had been taken... On the way out I figured I’d swing by a high end dealer who is known for selling only quality coins to get his opinion and yup you guessed it... Polished!!! Boy did I feel stupid.... for almost 2 years I thought my 59p that was sitting in the SDB was a gem but it was truly a POS.
Leaving the show I had several emotions. But my number 1 thought was how my "friend" would react... I called the "so called specialist " to tell him what I had done and what people said about it. His response was.... the old timer I bought it from said it was an AU58 all day long and loved the coin... I told him it was definitely polished and retoned and I couldn’t believe he had talked the coin up so much and made me pay such a premium for a polished coin. He took advantage of my lack of knowledge and I wasn’t a happy camper. I asked him if he would take the coin back since he stands behind every coin he sells... He said you should take it to pcgs and have them pay you for it since they have a guarantee.... I reminded him I don’t even have a membership or know anyone at pcgs. He asked me to go back into the show and find the dealer he bought it from and ask him if he was interested in the coin .I really didn’t want to but had the sense he was not going to make things right. I had nothing to loose. Besides I was interested to see the old timer who liked the coin. So I went back in and found the "old timer" a man who was at best in his early 40s who doesn’t deal with dollars often or at least is not known to most Seated dollar collectors I know .... Showed him the coin and he said he would have to check to see what the market was for 59p dollars before he could make an offer. He saw in his records that he had sold the coin to the specialist and told me... I like it but can not offer you more than 1k. He said he felt uneasy about it at that number but that’s what he thinks it’s worth to him.. The so called specialist told me he couldn’t believe it.... He had bought the coin for 1800 bucks... I questioned why he couldn’t tell that the coin was polished (with 30 years experience) but others easily identified it without a loop. He said he could have made a mistake? He said he felt upset that the "old timer" had lied about how nice it was when he purchased it.
From here things went downhill. When he refused to take the coin back he said ask any dealer they will tell you.... You can’t ask for your money back almost 2 years later... I reminded him I lacked the knowledge on surfaces and he was suppose to be a coin mentor of mine teaching me about surfaces. (This turned out to be a costly lesson he taught me) we were good friends... I mean I listened to this guy complain daily about his back pain issues, fellow collectors, his bad neighbors, his house remodel ,everything...) I don’t do that with dealers and I didn’t think of him as a dealer. It would be one thing if he sold it to a random guy on eBay but not to a friend. He asked me to send it back to him so he could compare it to a newer 59p he recently acquired (another CAC failure). He said he would think about exchanging them but needed to see them side by side. So I sent it. He called me when he received it and told me he now sees he made a "mistake" and it had been polished. I replied you made a mistake and I paid for it... He replied that he would take it in trade for the new one he has but I’d need to throw in another $700 . Which would bring my total cost for a 59p xf45 CAC reject to $2885 (retail is less than 1k).... In the picture he sent of the newer 59p there was an obvious big corrosion spot which he said was not corrosion . I told him I don’t want his new 59p and I don’t want the old 59p they were both POS coins. I said how about this... You keep all the profit you made off me on the coin... That would bring his cost on the coin down and just pay me what you initially paid keep the 350+ profit.... I felt this was fair but he couldn’t believe I was even asking him to take the coin back. He said he has a 5 day return policy... I told him what good is that if I was suppose to be learning about surfaces from him. I mean part of the reason I was paying up on all my purchases with this guy was to ensure I bought from My friend was to ensure I was not going to get burned... we were friends and I looked at him as a mentor . I didn’t know any better.... I offered to take a lesser value coin in trade in value. The answer was no. No matter what I tried the answer was no... He did offer to take the coin and try to sell it but couldn’t guarantee what he could get for it. I told him no thanks I can loose money on my own.How can I trust you to sell a coin and be honest when your willing to screw me? He told me he has been in the same situation in the past with a dealer. Said he had been burned by a dealer and it’s part of the business. I told him I would never knowingly sell a POS to a friend... and then not try to make it right . But his only reply was I hope you take this as a lesson learned and become a better numismatist from it. So that’s what I got from the Seated Dollar specialist ... If your considering Seated Dollars please ask around before making a deal with a vest pocket dealer that has 30 years of experience.
I have asked both coin friends and non coin friends what they think... Every last one has told me it’s shitty he did that to his friend. Bottom line this situation is partly my fault I let myself be taken advantage of and should have educated myself more. I should have not fully trusted this "specialist". Truth is I lost some money but he has lost a true friend. I’ve lost all the respect I had for him and now know he does not stand behind every coin he sells. He only cares about the money and could care less if he screws his "friends " I found it out the hard way. I said friends because I know he has screwed a couple other collectors . I hope people entering the Seated Dollar world educate themselves and buy from trusted sources who actually have a good name in the business. Ask around before you deal with this vest pocket dealer. He only has a good name in his own mind.
Comments
This happened to me in the sports card world but not to the same extent, dollar wise. I became educated after time. I vowed it would not happen again to me, in the coin world.
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Wow. Long story. You viewed him as a friend. How do you think he viewed you?
When money is flowing one way in a “friendship”...... it seems more like something else. An image of a fish on a line comes to mind.
It sounds like you’ve been badly burned as a beginning collector. That sucks, and it happens way too often. It would be instructive to hear the other side of this story.
All the same, I think any collector would do well to educate themselves and independently verify anything they’re buying that is above “regular” prices. Sometimes paying up is justified but in those cases you have to KNOW what you’re doing.
He’s a wannabe dealer under laura’s definition. Beware
Too many stories about people being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people in our hobby.
“Bottom line this situation is partly my fault I let myself be taken advantage of and should have educated myself more”
Pretty much sums it up . We have all been there too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bryce- That’s part of why I decided to post this... I was definitely a fish on the line. I hope others learn from my mistake. With the Seated dollar series there are just not that many shops to go and see different examples. You really need to see a number of them in hand to become confident. Which is why I believe I leaned heavily on my coin buddy’s.... I am still learning and will continue to do so.
That's a sad story too often told by new collectors. I'm sorry for your loss. Many of us starting-off have suffered as much or worse.
I'll say this: If you continue in this hobby you will find truly great dealers who are a joy to work with. I can think of a half dozen Liberty Seated specialists who will turn your perspective around completely. Wonderful, helpful, honest, knowledgeable specialists. They will renew your trust and faith.
Ask around.
Lance.
Yawn. Glad to read you will continue to read/learn and collect. You picked a very good series to collect. Hopefully, you've decided to purchase only dollars in slabs graded by PCGS.
Crusty
Your one of the best guys a friend can ask for. I can think of a few close coin friends that it’s not about the money , the friendship come first. I truly regret introducing him to you. We have all been burned, I’m just glad I got to see your collection and made you aware. It’s tough pictures can hide some many problems. I’m glad I was able to stop the bath on the 1859 s deal that was corroded.
A hard lesson learned for us all but you know who your true friends are!
I should have listened to my wife from day one. Lol she’s a good judge of character!
Hard lesson, but I’m glad you posted because it’s rare to hear this side of collecting in this much detail.
Is this guy a LSCC or PNG member? If so, is he in good standing?
It was graded by pcgs. Your advice is poor. Yawn.
Send what you just wrote to the President of any organization he has a membership in... ...
The truth comes easy!
The club is great I would recommend it to any collector. So much educational information and great members.
This happens to many folks who are unknowledgeable across a lot of series unfortunately. There are several god honest dealers out there, but I can name just as many shiesters who only care about making a buck. It pays to learn a series or or know the series you want to collect, learn as much as you can from several different sources. I would also have said, fine someone who knows the series well, and learn from him ,but after this, be careful, he /she could be the same. Use multiple source's.
There are a few local dealers here doing the same thing, hosing folks with all kinds of crap. Most of them hope the collector puts it away for years down the road, and doesn't pick up on the fact till its too late!!
It seems there was a misunderstanding of what his return policy was.
And it seems this guy had become a trusted friend, and now you feel bad about having trusted him.
It seems fair to say that it's best to diversify your sources of learning when they are making money from you.
At least you didn't buy the high end stuff on HSN.
You started out with a big series with big price tags. Many/most of us started on a much smaller scale. We have all learned lessons the hard way but the risks were smaller.
Oh well....try to move forward.
The money loss sucks, the loss of trust really hurts. Coin collecting is like the battle for Iwo Jima: a lot of people die and everyone has battle scars
I used to think buying beautiful original coins that only turn up once every ten years was worth any premium...until I sold those coins and no one else paid the premium. They bid the listed price on the greysheet, maybe a little more if really nice.
Greed in the business has ruined the hobby for me too.
...so you basically bought the guy a cup of gas-station grade coffee everyday for a year and a half...that’s not the long-con if you ask me...your friend sounds like a professional loser...move on buddy, and sorry for your loss
That's for the first coin. He mentioned he's "spent well over 25k" with this person.
...well then now it’s time to have a sit-down with the friend...over a hot cup of Joe
Boy, that is a long story but it is missing one key piece of information:
It's in a PCGS holder that's XF45. I assume it straight-graded, so why is this such a POS coin that everyone else thinks is polished? It must be "market acceptable".
Welcome
Story is too long.
Sounds like tuition was paid.
Many states have laws about fraud/misrepresentation in both criminal and civil law. The guy who cheated me on eBay a few years ago was charged with Theft by Deception by my local police department for the scam he bamboozled me in.
If this guy really cheated you out of $1300 or so, consider talking to a lawyer. Statute of limitations may not have run out for a suit.
The fact that you were a novice and were trusting his 'expert recommendations and descriptions' would definitely tilt things in your favor.
I wouldn't accept this outcome. Get your damn money back!
I'm surprised no one has asked for pics of this coin. I'd like to see what it looks like.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yep, sorry to hear about your misfortune but could we please see a picture of this "POS"?
Wow...that is a sad tale .....I am glad you are still interested in coins... that would be enough to turn most new collectors off the hobby completely. Best of luck in future transactions... Cheers, RickO
Before anyone further comments on this photos of the coins obtained from this "friend" need to be seen along with the grade descriptions given by the "friend".
Is there any surviving correspondence?
I hear the same stories over on the Sportscard board. Trimmed, recolored etc. When I started playing hold-em 40 years ago and made a mistake in a huge pot on my way out the door an old timer stopped me and said, “Every education costs money, just don’t pay for the same class again. “
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Live and learn. You learned a heck of alot about how some dealers work, that you need to see a coin in hand and learn about surfaces, and that you need to find the right dealers and be patient. Would not hurt also if every coin you buy is CAC, better chance of no issues. I'd said that was a good course you had and you came out well with only a small amount of money spent to learn.
Best, SH
I get the tuition paid comments but it is sad that it is so accepted in this hobby that you will be taken if you aren't a savvy expert.
You have posted some very choice Seated dollars recently so seems like you are hitting your stride.
Latin American Collection
This is what I was thinking.
I read your post because I'm looking for a few for my type set. And I think you scooped me on one from somebody here on bst a while back by a few seconds! Sad story. It is an expensive series to collect in any grade. I hope it doesn't discourage you from collecting in general, but I would send that coin to PCGS and see what they'd say.
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Regarding starting in a big series, I'm guessing many customers of certain dealers start big, e.g. Legend. So picking the right dealer to trust is important if you are going to lean on that trust.
I see your experience as partly resulting from the financialization of collecting. US collecting seems to think it is great until the price level heads south. I see the same mentality in South Africa (only worse) which has presumably given the "hobby" a very negative reputation.
Far too much hype in both countries (mostly from TPG) and I will leave it at that.
I collect in a very thinly traded market and if I ever sell my most preferred coins (I don't intend to), I might see the same outcome. It's critical to know what you are buying (which the OP did not) but even for those who do, like the coins enough where the buyer won't mind losing money.
I think this is more complicated than that. He paid well over sheet for an XF45 coin. This coin, I would guess, is neither a POS or a gem. It's in a PCGS holder so it must be "market acceptable" the decision to overpay for the coin isn't completely on the dealer.
They already said XF45. The mistake was paying a huge premium. Even if PCGS reconsiders their original grade, they aren't going to pay AU+ money to the OP
Easy enough to sell for a relatively minor loss then, right? Cheap lesson.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Except the OP paid 2.5x the price guide for the coin.
Thanks for all the comments guys. I have a real passion for Seated dollars. I have a very nice set going IMHO with just 5 left now to conquer. All tough and expensive. I’ve tried to buy CAC examples whenever possible and they have really helped me fine tune my grading. But for some of the dates they just simply don’t exist... They are not always right I have seen CAC coins that IMHO didn’t deserve it. But overall CAC does a great job and has helped me greatly. Somebody asked if I had any of the communication about the coin .... YES.... I have since blocked his number but I some texts . As far as suing that is not me.... I took the loss and I’ve learned from it. Like I said it’s partly my own fault so I’ll take the loss and keep moving forward. Really I just want others to be cautious when getting into Dollars. Like I said there is not a whole lot of them at shops and you really do need a good mentor.
Picture of the coin? Please??
Sorry to hear you got taken on this. This hobby can be a weird one. Some people seem to think it's acceptable to 'get one over' on the other guy (or gal) no matter the cost or method. But as others mentioned, this hobby is serious bucks.
In the future, please separate who you take advice from with who you buy from. Or if you must take advice from a seller, make sure to get a second opinion or a robust return policy. Hope you continue with seated dollars. They are an amazing series!
PS: have to say that "that's tuition" comments may be true, but also explain why so many get turned off this hobby. Long term growth of this hobby could be improved with some more "guard rails" in place for beginners.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
greed is just part of human nature, but some, people get the $$$ in their eyes and nothing else matters in this case this guy saw $$$ and had no care of the friendship or anything just $$$
pity it turned out badly but when greed is involved the outcome is never good
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN4yssCCR7mb5YTVkizir6fW596CzTq42vn9QYHr3yn5e8KWYHA-hyXq9OvXwVMog?key=UVNMVndKbGNVeFdJQVdkb09HcEtFUkYxYmUwamJB
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EtRaKY4acKbo4asY6
Except the OP ignored the "guard rails". The coin was PCGS slabbed. There is a price guide. The OP let himself get talked into the notion that the slabbed grade was incorrect and that a premium price was required. There is no way to prevent that.
No image of the reverse but is it possible the coin was "net graded"?
If that coin is in a 45 holder it has been silently net graded.
I'm very skeptical that PCGS would straight grade a polished coin especially a seated liberty silver dollar. We need to see quality pics under good lighting. You may actually have a nice coin that you grossly over paid for. Also when a dealer hypes a coin don't be so naïve as to believe his BS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Pretty much. We all have made mistakes. I have in multiple hobbies.
That LOL is because we posted at almost the same time!