The Future of Numismatics - Shameless Shoutout to Brett Charville
Coinosaurus
Posts: 9,635 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday I attended a forum at the ANA convention entitled The Future of Numismatics, in which eight industry leaders briefly shared their thoughts. Much of the content was what we've heard before - the hobby is aging, the future is online numismatics, we need to pursue the 30-50 year olds who collected as kids and might now get back into the hobby, etc. I thought the most original thought came from Brett Charville, who talked about the evolution of Comicon.
For those who have never been, Comicon originated as a transaction-driven event where it really was about buying and selling comic books, Today the event is much more experiential and relational. It's more about community and social interaction. To me, the social aspect is the most compelling thing - sure, there seems to be a "collector" gene that you either have or don't, but person-person interaction is a much more universal experience. If your friends will be at coin shows, you will go there too, even if not to buy and sell.
For his part, Brett talked about trying to migrate the PCGS shows in this direction, and I think that's great. I'm on the board of a couple specialty clubs and am going to push in that direction as well. Coins are great, but it has to start with people. Feed the people and the coins will take care of themselves.
Comments
Reasonable and practical ideas. ANA has not shown itself able to handle either of those terms.
Maybe we need to replace ANA.
Excellent point. I think it's also about where shows are promoted. If they remain promoted through traditional venues (coin magazines that kids don't subscribe to, journals they don't read) then you're going have trouble bringing them it. Blast it out through instagram, reddit, snapchat, whatever and you will likely get younger eyeballs. A certain Canadian show has exactly this problem. They promote their major event through the usual sources and draw the usual suspects: old white dudes. There were no events or seminars geared toward a younger crowd, no real learning opportunities outside of talking with other dealers and collectors. On-site grading and photography courses, the ins and outs of trading, show and tell sessions, that's what younger people are looking for. Seems like the ANA summer seminar has a really great YN program. Why not try and implement that at shows?
Dealing in Canadian and American coins and historical medals.
I think it is great that there are people in the community making an effort to have a positive impact on the future of numismatics. Fresh ideas should be most welcome.
I’m not sure that a coin show will really be able to remodel itself like Comicon as they are on opposite ends of the spectrum in many ways. But maybe one can find some aspects which could cross over.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
From google:
How much do Comic Con Tickets cost 2018?
Badge prices for 2018 have increased slightly, with adult badges ranging from $63 for a Thursday, Friday, or Saturday badge (up from $60 in 2017) to $42 for a Sunday badge (up from $40 in 2017). All four badges can be purchased for $231, or you can add $45 for Preview Night to make it $276.
Color me skeptical, but I'd be surprised if you could convince more than a handful of coin collectors to pay admission prices anywhere close to that.
I tend to agree. The problem is that it's an inexact parallel. Yes, there is buying/selling of comic books. But you also have pop culture icons that show up and do promotions. Comic Con has seen the Star Wars crew, the Star Trek crew, the Xmen stars. I'm sure if you could get Halle Berry and Jennifer Lawrence to show up at the ANA show, you'd get a different demographic. But there isn't the same pop culture overlap that exists for Comic Con.
P.S. I also think the Comic Con comparison misses the point. People with the "collecting gene" don't automatically collect EVERYTHING. Maybe Comic Con isn't so much a model for how to improve numismatics but a reason for the decline of numismatics: people with the gene are getting their collection fix in other areas.
The Laker Girls were at Long Beach one year. Didn't seem to draw much of a crowd. But yeah, I agree- there isn't the same pop culture overlap.
Comic Con is famous for these amazing panels with stars and creators of various franchises. No offense to the Laker Girls, but I'm not sure anyone but a creepy old numismatist would show up for a panel discussion with Laker Girls.
Simple.
Adapt or slowly and painfully fade away.
...... well said ......
Agreed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnWcr_MnOzI
Another dimension to Comic Con is the cosplayers - fans and models who dress up as characters from comics, video games, movies, etc.
You don't see videos from a coin show getting 1.2m views within 3 weeks, right?
The majority of attendees are not in costume, but they get to walk among the cosplayers, maybe see versions of some of their favorite characters, get selfies with them, etc.
It's a level of interaction with the subject media that is rather different than coins.
Still, I like @Coinosaurus' and Brett's observation that the interactions of fans with each other are important, rather than just thinking about buying and selling.
Agreed. Comic conventions are about much more than buying and selling. There's even a movie about comic conventions, Chasing Amy. Imagine a similar movie about coin conventions?
I think we likely all agree that increased collector interaction would be a positive. However, what are some concrete things that could be done to facilitate this? It sounds good in the abstract, but I'm not sure what it would actually entail. Keep in mind I'm not a creative type, so generating new ideas is not typically in my wheelhouse...
...IMHO...the only thing wrong with the Laker Girls are, well, the Lakers
If PCGS thinks they are a leader in coin grading they should promote worldwide numismatics.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The foundation of comics is fantasy.... the foundation of coin collecting is history and art. Two totally different venues. However, I do agree that a big part of coin collecting future is online and that must be further explored and pursued. Attitudes and technology are driving change at an incredible pace, and numismatics needs to become part of this brave new world. Cheers, RickO
I think one of the big take aways from this is coin collectors tend to be more introvert....private and Comic Con folks are the opposite.
I try to gauge what the new gen of players looking for when attending shows.
Who you calling old?
The point is not to emulate ComiCon exactly (admission fees, etc.) but to think about the deeper themes that unite that community, and how that might be applicable in our corner of the world.
I would respectfully disagree. Don't they tend to be similar? Shy, introverted, nerdy outcast-types. It's only among like-minded people that they come out of their shell. It's a place to be openly enthusiastic about something most people keep secret. Sound familiar?
Dealing in Canadian and American coins and historical medals.
I would have to disagree with both, collectors are not automatically introvert but rather cautious about this hobby due to the value attached to it. That is the flaw I see in Brett's idea, not a lot of collectors want to have a ton of muggers hanging around shows.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Coin shows are geared for older collectors. They’re great for socializing and networking. I go to Long Beach 2-3 times a year and I can’t remember the last time I bought a coin but I have fun making the rounds. If you’re a super specialist there’s very little to buy at a show compared to buying from an online dealer website with full return privileges. If you’re looking to fill in a few holes in a set coin shows are great.
I don't know. Don't we already know the answer?
ComiCon people are united by the pop culture genres that it caters to (sci-fi, comic books, anime, etc.)
Coin collectors are united by coins.
The difference between ComiCon and Coins is that there are millions of people who would go to ComiCon for the pop culture exposure who don't collect anything. There aren't that many people that just like to look at coins. That is why I don't like the attempt to use ComiCon as a model of anything.
You might go to ComiCon because you love the Star Wars movies. You don't collect Star Wars figures, dress in Star Wars clothing, collect Star Wars comic books, etc. You might go to ComiCon because you like a TV show and the TV show has a panel discussion. ComiCon is not just a meeting place for collectors. It is also not a meeting place for collectors of a SINGLE entity.
I know they for sure wouldn't be pestered with Colombians looking to ambush them at shows.
How liquid ARE comics? I sold my run of Mad comics and got ...fairly... good money and I never worried about making it public that I had ..... comics.
Our secrecy can be our Achilles heel. Look at the prices realized for ...PURSES... at Heritage.
We gotta get coins recognized as works of ...art.
With great pride of ownership and some snooty remarks to the unwashed.
Troubling is the premium evaporation on once very collectable coins. A local dealer who is a market maker in town is paying melt for for common $20 libs in PCGS ms64 holders. Better $5 gold commems are bringing miniscule spreads on Ebay. Morgan Dollars in MS66 holders are difficult to sell at $180 vs $300 a few years ago.
Rare coins were surging when I got into the hobby in 2002 or so. Perhaps this is an expected return to the norm. When I see categories trading at 25%-33%of peak values, one suspects that the scenario is more dire.
Not sure how having 70 year old dealers in tights and wielding light sabers will help.
Collectors at all levels generally like clubs. EAC had the largest increase in membership since inception as reported in the last PW. Other clubs have not been as successful. There should be tables for clubs at shows to sign-up new members. More regional events. Better marketing outside of numismatic circles to bring the 30-50 years olds into numismatics.
.
Maybe having speakers on related or semi-related subjects would help. I was just at the Sprott Resources investment conference in Vancouver. This year they had people like Naomi Prins and James Rickards who spoke about the economy in general.
One of the biggest killers of a profitable coin for me was when silver prices made circ. coins like Barbers,Mercs,Walkers, etc. worth more as silver than a collectable coin.
At my local show 20 years ago I had a reputation if he doesn't have it no one does because I inventoried just about everything. Wasn't worth the trouble when it turned into bullion.
POTM
The last thing I ever want to see at a show is a dealer in CosPlay.....
Well, if the ANA show was held in San Diego, it would get a more varied demographic and younger attendees as well. If we keep going to Rosemont, we are going to get the same people every year... i know my family isn’t going to be vacationing there with me, no matter how many days I’m there...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Thanks for starting this thread @Coinosaurus
I had originally planned on expounding a bit but had a limited time window during the speech. The point I was attempting to make is that coin shows in their present form need to move away from being focused so heavily on trading. At many Comic-Cons making a purchase or transaction is an after-thought. That doesn't mean we have to start charging $60 at the door or dressing up like Jedis, simply that we need to add programming to compliment the bourse in order to build a sense of community and draw bigger crowds.
Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS
It's an interesting idea, but I still think they are fundamentally different animals. As I mentioned above, trading is secondary at a Comic Con, but there is a pop culture/celebrity reason to go. I'm not sure you could entice coin collectors, much less the general public with coin/history programming.
If it were cheap enough, I'm sure you could get some people to stop by a giant pile of S.S. America gold, but that isn't going to build numismatic community, is it?
It's ideal when the family can stay at the same hotel and have easy access to tourist activities. Even downtown Chicago close to Millennium Park and Navy Pier would be better.
Are you saying that we all need to wear mustard stained shirts"
One thing I've been thinking of is moving coin clubs to have live, broadcast presentations, like webinars. These could then be watched live and after the fact. A lot of companies use this approach pretty successfully.
Go to a Comic Con and persuade some comics artist to make a COIN comic strip.
A magnificent crime fighter superhero who gets his power from ....rare coins.
Villains would be the people who don't collect. They'd have to call on him to save them.
Lots of scantily clad helpers for Numisman too.
Also get hold of a video game developer and get them involved.
A ....NEWP.... gives the player extra power and more levels.
Okay, let's hear your....better.... idea.
Great. The super hero can eat them and after digesting, out come gold bars with various magic powers as weapons (depending on coin; grade; grading service; and little stickers).
Okay, let's hear your....even worser.... ideas.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
US mint can always get a booth and start selling limited edition comic-con related coin/ medal near the entrance of comic-con shows.
But no! Our community only focus on collectors who would remember singing " I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid", while considering putting this out of style poster
in a Comic-con to detour everyone from entering.
Lets face it. Any parents who dress their kids or carry a logo like the picture above would have a bullying issue in the school.
Explain the $10 MS Library of Congress. Under 7000 mintage of this gold/platinum type. Coin peaked at about $4000 a decade ago with a $3000 plus premium over melt. They sell in the $1000 range now with a $400 premium to melt.
Sure one can argue that $4000 was a blue sky anomaly but that is still a collaple. Similar numbers on the 1997 $5 ms Robinson.
Demand vs. Supply.
Same with the generic gold. I'd be more concerned that the problem isn't the pop increase but a corresponding or greater demand decrease.
The coins you mentioned above are far outside what 99% in the numismatic community collect, so I personally don't consider them to be relevant to my point.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
THE ANA show had a comicon like impersonator as Abraham Lincoln greeted visitors upon entering the bourse in the morning. superbly dressed down to the correct shoes/boots
It might be worth it for the ANA to recruit a panel of psychologists to create a profile of coin collectors as well as their profile as youth.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
next thing is there gonna be calling us decreped as well
Yes lets go to San Diego for the ANA WFOM.
Its been there in the early 80's and once for the mid year show.
folks won't be disappointed.
Much said about future youth in our hobby but all in context (more than several times)
concerning youth 30 yos as employees or interns of coin businesses the speakers represented.
Nothing about evidence of youthful collectors entering our hobby today or their numbers.
Their vision looking around seemed to be only within their own bubble.
Looking around the Bourse floor every day I was there (5 days) was mostly grey mountain tops.
My vision of the future of the hobby is as the baby boomers. (1946-1964) decline in numbers so will the collector base
track accordingly. The last boomer is 56, so we have some time left.
Been a collector for 63 years