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Question about Green Verdigris on Large Cents
slider23
Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭
I have been looking for a PCGS Classic Head Large Cent in VF 30 or 35 . I have noticed a lot of the VF straight graded Classic Heads have some spots of verdigris. Should I pass on any coin that has green verdigris? Below is a coin that is graded VF30 with a CAC sticker. Note the green verdigris around the N on the reverse. Would you purchase a Classic Head Large Cent with spots of verdigris?
This is a very tough series to find a straight graded nice VF coin without some pitting, verdigris, spots, scratch or market acceptable old cleaning.
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The verdigris on the reverse is not bad... So I'd have no issue buying this if it was a tough date needed knowing that at some point I'd have to crack it and conserve it.
If I liked the rest of the coin, and the price was reasonable, I would buy it, as that little
bit of green on a VF Classic Head doesn't bother me. I don't know if this is an 11/0 (my nemesis), or an 1812 (same reverse). You're generally lucky to find one
without major problems - and I think the services are a bit more forgiving with these.
I wouldn't tolerate it on late date or Randall Hoard coin, as there are plenty of nice examples of those around.
But the bottom line is, if it bothers YOU, don't buy it. As I'm guessing you just want one for 'type', you can afford to hold off.
You are correct the reverse is from an 1812 Classic Head. I need a classic head to complete my PCGS registry set to 100%, it is the final coin. I have been looking for quality classic head in VF for about a year and I am getting a little impatient. Maybe the solution is to buy one with the verdigris and at some point send it in to PCGS for conservation.
If the coin is what you are seeking in other respects, than that small spot of verdigris can be conserved (by our hosts) and likely not leave any ugly damage......Cheers, RickO
Interesting......I’ve helped build a number of type sets over the years, and long contended that the toughest coins are the classic head cent and the seated dollars......
The only thing that bothers me is why they didn't conserve it in the first place, that green has been there for a long time.
My two examples of the 1812 varieties; the Small Date (Sheldon 291) on the right
is likely a match for the OPs coin:
The verdigris certainly isn't a plus to me, but I don't mind it here. I highly doubt it'll ever grow or change, if normal collector storage practices are used.
I’ve noticed the same thing in building my type set. In fact, I found both Seated Dollars but am still on the hunt for a Classic Head Cent. Even finding an acceptable (not overly corroded or damaged) example in a details holders has been hard.
For the OP, I agree with some of the others: if the price is right, this might be a good opportunity (and hopefully PCGS conservation will fix the coin).
But it will murmur annoyingly in the night.
I'd either wait for another or plan on conservation as soon as it arrived.
No problem with conserving it IF it can be done in such a way as to not leave a shiny or noticeable something in its wake. Otherwise yep, just keep looking for another!
Corrosion in a holder is not good. The hunt continues. Peace Roy
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Took me at least a year to find a nice Classic Head in VF. Finally found one, nice even wear, no corrosion, no noticeable hits, no serious discoloration. so they are out there. Even got it stickered. Expect they are in strong hands as they say.
Unfortunately, the just about ALL the TPGS put dirty stuff as this into a holder. That's all I will say.
Oh, I can add this. If the coin is worth it, ask them to conserve it. I believe this TPGS will charge for the conservation but the coin will look much better.
Knowledgeable collectors of copper have a jeweler's brush. Apparently you bought the coin already slabbed. Perhaps you can crack it out, remove the debris and send the coin, label, and slab parts to PCGS asking them to reholder it. It would be cheaper. Call them first.
Perhaps Heather can address this situation in a PM.
Once it's cracked out, all bets are off and PCGS will treat it as a raw coin and you will be charged the full grading fee. Sending them the label and the slab pieces won't help because they have no proof that your coin was ever in that slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
You are absolutely correct. Once a coin is out of the slab all guarantee's are lost. \That's the way it works in the "real world."
I've been lucky to work in an alternative Universe where things are different. We all know folks break out coins to get them crossed. When they don't make it it's too bad.
There are obvious reasons some coins don't cross and I'll not elaborate here. I do know that some TPGS do put coins back into a slab if nothing has changed on the coin. It's customer service. There have also been cases where the slab is still sealed but damaged.
Each TPGS I've worked at had different ways of doing things. Again, IMO, it is unfortunate that the OP's coin was slabbed as is in the first place. In defense of the TPGS's, most don't have the time, knowledge, or desire to take care of coins as this UNLESS they are asked. That's because at least 90% of the copper coins I see have some form of debris on them that can be easily removed before slabbing. Greasy copper picks up tiny crap as soon as it is put into the average brand new flip! The stuff does not blow off in the assembly room and even the action of the sonic sealer can loosen stuff off the coin that becomes trapped in the holder. I remember one Large cent that had to be cracked out and sealed three times because stuff kept coming off into the case after it was cleaned!
IMO, every coin sent to a TPGS should be "cleaned" before slabbing but this is NOT DONE because of the legal issue. In the 1970's folks had to indicate it was OK to clean their coin if necessary to authenticate it!
I've seen MS 63s and 4s of this series and Draped Bust copper, slabbed by TPGs with far more problems than this coin. A problem with pre 1815 copper is that surfaces often aren't stable. I had an 1804 Half Cent in MS 65 BN start to develop PVC on the 8 of the date 8 years after I bought the coin. After that experience, I won't buy a pre 1815 copper unless it's in a PCGS 1st or 2nd generation holder, which mean I won't be buying one of them.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
Copper is very problematic. I’d personally pass on this example. It will take some time, but better VF examples are out there. I’d prefer an example with some porosity over this one.
Dave
Finding a classic head without corrosion or verdigris is not easy to do, and I quite prefer your coin to some of the cleaned and recolored examples posted subsequently.
That said, I would suggest you exhibit some patience and wait for a better example to come around, particularly if it bothers you (which I suspect is the case as you brought it up).
And FWIW, here's my example of the type (PCGS VF-25):
I like the coin, but I would crack it if it were mine. Maybe it’s just me, but when I own a coin like this and have it in hand, my eyes constantly go to the discoloration.
This sort of verdigris isn’t difficult to remove and will make difference in eye appeal (and peace of mind).
Thanks for the comments.
I found a coin that I liked a 1812 Large Date AU50 PCGS, and it is not a CAC . This coin went on the market yesterday and I purchase it today. It may be a little dark for some collectors, but my old copper coins are chocolate brown. I spent more money than I wanted, but the price was fair based on past auction results. My 7070 registry set is now complete and will be taking a time out from buying any coins. I usually go with CAC on a lot of my coins, but I have not been impressed with CAC stickers on this series. I may send it in to CAC, but I am not sure if JA likes dark chocolate.
Looks like a real beauty, way to go.
I don't see any reason that [the AU50 you purchased] wouldn't get a green sticker if submitted. Looks GREAT!
I would pass as these are tough to sell. Certainly not something get buried in.
A cent specialist I know buys these assuming they 60 pct of (or less) CDN bid.
Agree. With the amount on the coin it is easily removed and can be Conserved. If I found that coin raw? I would not blink just take note it would need removed properly.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I like chocolate and even the occasional blackish if it’s on copper. Indian heads come to mind. Those can look great in darker colors
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
If all of your early date copper looked the same, I would worry. The copper supplies were very erratic back then, that's why there's so much variation in color. The last one you posted is stunning, dark or not.
That's a heck of a classic head. I think you were VERY wise to wait. The slightly mottled look your coin exhibits is the typical look for circulated classic head rather than the more questionable (and prevalent) smooth even color. I like it!
Do you know, has JA seen the coin?
Unless there's something missing in the photo (luster is a bit tough to judge), and going only by the obverse, I see no obvious reason why this shouldn't get his approval.
Congrats on your NEWP!
I do not know if JA has seen the coin. I have not had good luck with JA and AU50's, but the grading does appear to be different on the Classic Head Cents than other classic coins. I have about a dozen coins in my type set that I will be sending into CAC.
Seller notes the coin has luster. The coin shipped today, I hope it looks as good in hand as it does in the photos and there are no surprises.