@Jinx86 said:
Also many of the coins were very accurately graded some even conservatively. This dime had been graded 64 non full band by PCI.
This applies only to the very early slabs with that distinctive font and 10 digit serial numbers. The later green holders with 14 digit numbers were hit and miss, and don't get me started on the gold holders.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
this is a debate/discussion/argument that has been repeated at this site for almost 20 years now........................with no resolution in sight. the replies given by coinguy tend to echo my thoughts and display his experience in the Hobby and at this site. I marvel at the "intent" reasoning since it goes back almost that entire 20 years and always gets repeated. I think we each have to arrive at our own conclusion(s) about what happens to the surface of a coin.
to the OP coin and question, the reason they command a premium is because the Hobby has accepted that the coins in the holders were white at the time of encapsulation and after 20 years they no longer are. sent into another TPG like PCGS for "crossover service" they almost always crossover. the PCI "100% White" insert is like a CAC sticker for color and everyone knows it is.
I do think they should be cracked out and neutralized
by a collector, really??
some of the coins have a funky appearance to them, especially the outrageously toned ASE's, and if a collector cracked them out there would be a reduced chance(maybe to ZERO %) that another TPG would encapsulate them. hopefully, nobody follows your advice. the entire premium is predicated on the fact that the coins are accepted as legitimate by the Hobby, PCGS included. absent the holder they would be questionable.
Because a faulty holder caused quickened toning compared to nature. Is that not the very definition of "artificial"?
Answer:
ar·ti·fi·cial
/ˌärdəˈfiSHəl/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.
"her skin glowed in the artificial light"
you said: Because a faulty holder caused quickened toning compared to nature. Is that not the very definition of "artificial"?
only if it was intentional.
And, I do not believe that it was their intention to tone coins at the time
@keets said: I do think they should be cracked out and neutralized
by a collector, really??
some of the coins have a funky appearance to them, especially the outrageously toned ASE's, and if a collector cracked them out there would be a reduced chance(maybe to ZERO %) that another TPG would encapsulate them. hopefully, nobody follows your advice. the entire premium is predicated on the fact that the coins are accepted as legitimate by the Hobby, PCGS included. absent the holder they would be questionable.
I didn’t say by a collector. Thanks for jumping to mistaken conclusions again
I’m thinking of sending them to PCGS with instructions to neutralize with cross at any grade. They are mine so my post also isn’t advice for anyone.
that is a confusing scenario that would probably require some kind of approval by PCGS, and since you are "thinking of sending" them I don't believe I leaped. I have never heard of PCGS doing something like that. typically a coin is sent raw, conserved and graded, so I guess you would be asking them to:
1.) note it is encapsulated.
2.) verify that it is OK and grade it.
3.) conserve the coin.
4.) re-grade it prior to encapsulation.
that sounds like a lot, so good luck.......................and don't let your boxers get in a bunch, attempt to explain yourself better.
@keets said:
that is a confusing scenario that would probably require some kind of approval by PCGS, and since you are "thinking of sending" them I don't believe I leaped. I have never heard of PCGS doing something like that. typically a coin is sent raw, conserved and graded, so I guess you would be asking them to:
1.) note it is encapsulated.
2.) verify that it is OK and grade it.
3.) conserve the coin.
4.) re-grade it prior to encapsulation.
that sounds like a lot, so good luck.......................
I've heard of PCGS neutralizing coins before so I don't think it's too great of a leap. Also acetone isn't generally considered conservation.
and don't let your boxers get in a bunch, attempt to explain yourself better.
I'm not. I expect banter with you, even with multi-paragraph, extremely detailed posts. It's not like we haven't had it before
Science disagrees with you. Your argument is completely contrived.
con·trived
/kənˈtrīvd/
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Science doesnt care about intent. The causation of toning is either natural, or it is not (hence artificial).
Simple example to illustrate this point:
Jack is struck by a car while crossing the street and dies. The driver of the car did not intend to run into Jack. Therefore, Jack died of natural causes?
Agreed. I understand the debatability of "intention" but the look of them does not sit right with me.
It's hard for me to see PCI as "AT" but perhaps it may not be "MA" to some people.
Objectively classifying toning from unintentional storage as "AT" seems like it could put a lot toning like album toning and bag toning into the AT category.
This is more interesting the second time I read it. Labeling it "AT" on a slab is different than recognizing that the toning is not natural. This distinction is probably lost on a lot of people. Make no mistake, it is artificial - it has to be by definition. However, nearly all coins from the 1800s are cleaned (but not even 90% of them are labeled as such).
@dmwest said:
One thing I've seen is that PCI ASEs get straight graded by our hosts, but I've seen PCI graded Morgans with the same style of toning get QC. Has anyone ever seen a straight graded PCI target toned Morgan?
Yes, I have seen PCI toned Morgans straight grade into PCGS holders. Most of the ones that I have seen are a little on the ugly side IMO, but I have seen some nicely toned examples. I currently have two 1880/79-S Morgans that are a couple of the better PCI toned Morgans that I have seen. They are actually quite nice with the Semi-PL surfaces, it's just too bad I cant get very good pics of them because of the semi-PL surfaces and the slab.
Consider copper sheeting that is used to trim houses and government buildings. Goes on new, bright, shiny, and reflective. After aging for a year, is has a dull copper patina that lasts for centuries. Would you consider this change of color, to be natural or artificial? Let's not forget about the automotive gases, lawn fertilizer, and the local factory emissions that may be contributing to the color change. Would that copper sheeting still change color in a perfect environment? Maybe, but there is no perfect environment on this planet. I would personally consider the copper to have naturally toned. Are there other factors at work when it toned. Probably.
Do you have an example of something that has "naturally" toned?
Science disagrees with you. Your argument is completely contrived.
con·trived
/kənˈtrīvd/
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Science doesnt care about intent. The causation of toning is either natural, or it is not (hence artificial).
Simple example to illustrate this point:
Jack is struck by a car while crossing the street and dies. The driver of the car did not intend to run into Jack. Therefore, Jack died of natural causes?
That is crazy, it makes no sense whatsoever.
Your comments are so specious that I will not consider replying with logic, since you apparently cannot understand my comments.
see:
spe·cious
/ˈspēSHəs/
adjective
adjective: specious
superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
"a specious argument"
•misleading in appearance, especially misleadingly attractive.
"the music trade gives Golden Oldies a specious appearance of novelty"
synonyms: plausible but wrong, seemingly correct, misleading, deceptive, false, fallacious, unsound, casuistic, sophistic
"a specious argument"
I think TradesWithChops must be an alt, maybe he's pmh1nyc resurrected!! whenever the "intent" argument is raised I have always thought it's a cute technique that tends to draw people into a "head of a pin" discussion that nobody can win. the aforementioned member excepted, most all of us know what constitutes an attempt to artificially tone a coin; encapsulation by PCI 20-30 years ago isn't one of them. the science involved in coin preservation moved forward since then, PCI saw the error of their ways and changed.
is that really hard to understand??
by the circular, convoluted nature of the "intent" argument every coin issued by the Mint would need to be immediately vacuum sealed, lest it be disqualified for consideration as anything but AT. how much fun would that be??
@keets said:
I think TradesWithChops must be an alt, maybe he's pmh1nyc resurrected!! whenever the "intent" argument is raised I have always thought it's a cute technique that tends to draw people into a "head of a pin" discussion that nobody can win. the aforementioned member excepted, most all of us know what constitutes an attempt to artificially tone a coin; encapsulation by PCI 20-30 years ago isn't one of them. the science involved in coin preservation moved forward since then, PCI saw the error of their ways and changed.
is that really hard to understand??
by the circular, convoluted nature of the "intent" argument every coin issued by the Mint would need to be immediately vacuum sealed, lest it be disqualified for consideration as anything but AT. how much fun would that be??
Not an alt.
I find it amusing that people even consider intent at all. Plenty of people have accidentally ruined coins. Tons. If you like that artificial toning, then fine. I like chop marks.
I don't understand why people have to work so hard to call an apple a pear. Enjoy the apple for what it is, but it certainly is no pear.
With PCI in particular, it corrupted ALL of the coins - and they ALL are toning. Yes, it is a pleasing color, but it is still not "natural". It is SO unnatural that it is identifiable. What else do you need???
-- eye appealing? Yes.
-- natural? No.
-- damaged? thats for the coin community to decide - by this thread alone, I must conclude "No, market acceptable."
Consider copper sheeting that is used to trim houses and government buildings. Goes on new, bright, shiny, and reflective. After aging for a year, is has a dull copper patina that lasts for centuries. Would you consider this change of color, to be natural or artificial? Let's not forget about the automotive gases, lawn fertilizer, and the local factory emissions that may be contributing to the color change. Would that copper sheeting still change color in a perfect environment? Maybe, but there is no perfect environment on this planet. I would personally consider the copper to have naturally toned. Are there other factors at work when it toned. Probably.
Do you have an example of something that has "naturally" toned?
No, sir, I do not. I do have one example of a toned trade dollar that I like. However, I do not think it toned naturally over time. It likely was in some holder that precipitated it.
@keets said: I do think they should be cracked out and neutralized
by a collector, really??
some of the coins have a funky appearance to them, especially the outrageously toned ASE's, and if a collector cracked them out there would be a reduced chance(maybe to ZERO %) that another TPG would encapsulate them. hopefully, nobody follows your advice. the entire premium is predicated on the fact that the coins are accepted as legitimate by the Hobby, PCGS included. absent the holder they would be questionable.
^^^ This is exactly why someone new to the hobby scoffs. I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now, but started like many in childhood. How can the exact same coin have a 0-1% chance at encapsulation if cracked out, but be completely market acceptable otherwise?
Is it POSSIBLE that is because this particular unnatural toning has become popular/accepted -- so much so -- that people are faithfully claiming that it be considered natural when all logic points to the opposite?
Perhaps this is a case of re-defining a common English word. "Artificial" means a specific thing. In the coin world, it means something different?
From what I'm gathering from you all, the definition is: "All coins that toned without the intent to tone." This makes my head spin.
And on this post, im done with this topic. MY intent is not to make enemies. Clearly there are too many emotions on this topic to have a frank/factual conversation. I'm literally traversing 20 years of mines. Who knew there were so many land mines in the coin collecting community ?! Watch out newcomers!
I think that everyone just needs to agree to disagree. If you think its natural fine, if you think it's AT fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The debate on toning being acceptable and natural or not is never going to change.
Apologies if I missed someone saying something similar in this thread, though I don't recall where I heard or read it, my summary of the definition I've operated under in my own mind is:
"Natural toning occurs when coins are stored in a medium (cellophane, slab, envelope, capsules, cabinets, bags, etc.) and method that is generally accepted for coin storage, in environmental conditions that have not been manipulated (heat, humidity, gas, sulfer, etc.) to induce toning."
Yes, we can argue the definition of "generally accepted for coin storage" but IMHO it's not necessary...the industry and experienced collector community can readily recognize acceptable methods for storage at various points in history.
Toned coins will always sell above average if targeted to the right market. As far as with PCI, I agree with the above post on it being from their holder, though not so much on higher average than the other graders. I for one love toned coins. Would I have dropped $300 on a full band 1938d Winged Liberty? Not that one. It would have to be explosive in color, both sides equally. But that's just me. The buyer obviously likes that look so...
I am intimately familiar with PCI toning. Thankfully, your misinformed belief is in the minority. In fact, this is the first and ONLY time i've ever heard someone state that opinion. I possibly lead a sheltered life away from toning experts. Nevertheless, all opinions are welcome and we are each judged by them.
Do you have a definition of AT you would like to share with all of us? Is the amount of time it takes for the toning to occur a consideration?
@TradesWithChops said:
I mean, no disrespect to people who love the PCI's.
I collect strictly trade dollars with chop marks, which is PMD. I'm glad PCGS grades them as chop marks, and I find historical value to that - but it is post mint damage. Albeit, PMD ordered by the Emperor of China!
I think I just learned something new! So the Emperor ordered the merchants to chop the coins???? Where was this information published? If this is true, I should expect that chopped T$ would outnumber those that are not chopped about 5 or 6 to 1.
@TradesWithChops said: "The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that toning is damage that is market acceptable. That said, It's to the market as a whole to decide. My opinion is not representative of that collective. My opinion is that all toning is damage.
You are correct. Oxidation can be considered as damage and possibly every chemist will agree with you. Amazingly, a large majority of uninformed collectors will line up to buy all the attractively "damaged" coins they can get at stupid prices!
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Canvas bags, government packaging, coin albums, paper sleeves, PCI slabs all have imparted toning on coins. The difference between AT and NT in my opinion is time. Did this toning take years to happen or weeks?
I'm sure the Founder of PCI had no intention of his slabs toning coins. At that time in history, white coins were sought after. Toning would have ruined the coins in many eyes of that era. His choice of materials for the slabs just happen to be the wrong combination. I took years for the PCI holders to impart color on the coins, and decades for the canvas bags to color the Morgans. I am a fan of PCI toned Silver Eagles as they are easy to differentiate from the multitudes of AT Silver Eagle stuff out there. There uniqueness (toning pattern) is why I still choose to own a few.
White coins were the thing! The owner of PCI got the idea that the graders should put the % of white on coins as a marketing ploy. No one knew something in the insert, paper or ink used for the slab would cause the coins to eventually tone. I love to see a beautifully toned coin in a PCI slab with a 100% white description on the label. All it took was time.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Canvas bags, government packaging, coin albums, paper sleeves, PCI slabs all have imparted toning on coins. The difference between AT and NT in my opinion is time. Did this toning take years to happen or weeks?
I'm sure the Founder of PCI had no intention of his slabs toning coins. At that time in history, white coins were sought after. Toning would have ruined the coins in many eyes of that era. His choice of materials for the slabs just happen to be the wrong combination. I took years for the PCI holders to impart color on the coins, and decades for the canvas bags to color the Morgans. I am a fan of PCI toned Silver Eagles as they are easy to differentiate from the multitudes of AT Silver Eagle stuff out there. There uniqueness (toning pattern) is why I still choose to own a few.
So, based on your timetable, if a coin tones too quickly in a canvas bag, govt. packaging, paper sleeves, an album, etc., it’s “AT”, but if it doesn’t, it’s not?😉
Trades left a LOL on this post but it is no laughing matter. That is EXACTLY the point!
AT/NT is a very difficult subject to to become proficient in. Decades ago, after hands-on experimentation plus seeing the iridescent colors old silver rounds could turn over time in a gas heated, pine paneled room, I made the decision that I don't care if a bank stored coin toned in fifty years or it happened in five minutes in a hotel room! If it looks natural and market acceptable - it is NT!
@Jinx86 said:
Also many of the coins were very accurately graded some even conservatively. This dime had been graded 64 non full band by PCI.
We were super conservative! Dealers would come up to the PCI table and tell us how all the "red label" problem coins crossed with straight grades at other grading services.
Because a faulty holder caused quickened toning compared to nature. Is that not the very definition of "artificial"?
Answer:
ar·ti·fi·cial
/ˌärdəˈfiSHəl/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.
"her skin glowed in the artificial light"
What about a faulty canvas bag or coin album?
The US Mint causes plenty of problems in coins- as do banks processing those coins. Why is toning treated differently?
Is it because color looks better than milky spots? heh.
Of course, the next step is to say all toning is corrosion like @ricko
@keets said: I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now
this explains a lot, thanks for telling us. have a nice day.
Shucks, I was getting ready to post something exactly along the same lines! We are in a discussion with a young coin "Ex-Pert." Perhaps that is one reason this VERY OLD DISCUSSION keeps coming up as more young
"ex-perts" join our ranks. NT/AT, intent, time, market acceptable, etc... Nevertheless, I am enjoying the discussion and the opinions of our young "chop mark" collector. I also collect damaged coins to use in my grading seminars.
When we distill this discussion it becomes much clearer:
Some like toning, some do not.
Some consider toning damage, some do not.
Some oxidation is pretty some is not.
Some coins are "colored" on purpose and some are not.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter who they are or what they know.
And finally, 6. There is not one group of chemists or numismatist who can tell AT/NT reliably in every case!
@keets said: I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now
this explains a lot, thanks for telling us. have a nice day.
Shucks, I was getting ready to post something exactly along the same lines! We are in a discussion with a young coin "Ex-Pert." Perhaps that is one reason this VERY OLD DISCUSSION keeps coming up as more young
"ex-perts" join our ranks. NT/AT, intent, time, market acceptable, etc... Nevertheless, I am enjoying the discussion and the opinions of our young "chop mark" collector. I also collect damaged coins to use in my grading seminars.
When we distill this discussion it becomes much clearer:
Some like toning, some do not.
Some consider toning damage, some do not.
Some oxidation is pretty some is not.
Some coins are "colored" on purpose and some are not.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter who they are or what they know.
And finally, 6. There is not one group of chemists or numismatist who can tell AT/NT reliably in every case!
There is nothing close to a universally accepted definition of “AT/NT”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TradesWithChops said: "I collect strictly trade dollars with chop marks, which is PMD. I'm glad PCGS grades them as chop marks, and I find historical value to that - but it is post mint damage. Albeit, PMD ORDERED BY THE EMPEROR of China!**
I am STILL WAITING to be educated! Please reply.
Where did your information that the Emperor ordered the merchants to chop the coins come from???? Where was this information published? If this is true, I should expect that chopped T$ would outnumber those that are not chopped about 5 or 6 to 1.
Some coins would almost universally be considered NT, some considered AT and the rest will fall somewhere in between. Everybody's never going to agree on AT/NT, so I figure the best way to proceed is to just decide if I like the toning on a coin and go from there.
@Jinx86 said:
Also many of the coins were very accurately graded some even conservatively. This dime had been graded 64 non full band by PCI.
We were super conservative! Dealers would come up to the PCI table and tell us how all the "red label" problem coins crossed with straight grades at other grading services.
Thats crazy to hear. I guess grading standards have loosened or changed over the years then?
@keets said: I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now
this explains a lot, thanks for telling us. have a nice day.
Shucks, I was getting ready to post something exactly along the same lines! We are in a discussion with a young coin "Ex-Pert." Perhaps that is one reason this VERY OLD DISCUSSION keeps coming up as more young
"ex-perts" join our ranks. NT/AT, intent, time, market acceptable, etc... Nevertheless, I am enjoying the discussion and the opinions of our young "chop mark" collector. I also collect damaged coins to use in my grading seminars.
When we distill this discussion it becomes much clearer:
Some like toning, some do not.
Some consider toning damage, some do not.
Some oxidation is pretty some is not.
Some coins are "colored" on purpose and some are not.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter who they are or what they know.
And finally, 6. There is not one group of chemists or numismatist who can tell AT/NT reliably in every case!
Both of these comments were offensive to me.
I try to learn. Do I know as much as you? No. Does that mean you should write me (and all of the newcomers to the hobby off)? I should surely hope not. Otherwise, the hobby will die.
@MasonG said:
Some coins would almost universally be considered NT, some considered AT and the rest will fall somewhere in between. Everybody's never going to agree on AT/NT, so I figure the best way to proceed is to just decide if I like the toning on a coin and go from there.
The problem is this. Everybody is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion about AT/NT one way or the other. Least of all, the majority of us posting here. We are not casting votes where you can fill out a ballot without knowing anything going on around you. Fortunately, there are a few TPGS usually rendering a better-informed opinion. Unfortunately, they make mistakes like the rest of us.
@Jinx86 said:
Also many of the coins were very accurately graded some even conservatively. This dime had been graded 64 non full band by PCI.
We were super conservative! Dealers would come up to the PCI table and tell us how all the "red label" problem coins crossed with straight grades at other grading services.
Thats crazy to hear. I guess grading standards have loosened or changed over the years then?
Yes, grading standards have loosened BIG TIME. While I graded at PCI (1990-94) we were strict. When the company was sold, it really went to hell.
@Insider2 said: @TradesWithChops said: "I collect strictly trade dollars with chop marks, which is PMD. I'm glad PCGS grades them as chop marks, and I find historical value to that - but it is post mint damage. Albeit, PMD ORDERED BY THE EMPEROR of China!**
I am STILL WAITING to be educated! Please reply.
Where did your information that the Emperor ordered the merchants to chop the coins come from???? Where was this information published? If this is true, I should expect that chopped T$ would outnumber those that are not chopped about 5 or 6 to 1.
I did not mean to imply that the emperor ordered all chop marks by merchants to be applied. There is a subset of marks that were applied (mostly to '73 coins) that were involved in an emperor ordered study of the coins. I dont have a source readily available, and im on vacation at present.
@MasonG said:
Some coins would almost universally be considered NT, some considered AT and the rest will fall somewhere in between. Everybody's never going to agree on AT/NT, so I figure the best way to proceed is to just decide if I like the toning on a coin and go from there.
The problem is this. verybody is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion about AT/NT one way or the other. Least of all, the majority of us posting here. We are not casting votes where you can fill out a ballot without knowing anything going on around you. Fortunately, there are a few TPGS usually rendering a better-informed opinion. Unfortunately, they make mistakes like the rest of us.
What do you mean that "[e]verybody (sic) is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion?" There are no requirements or qualifications necessary to have an opinion. With that said, some opinions are obviously more valuable than others for obvious reasons. I also think you are giving the grading services way too much credit.
Not every AT coin that slips by the services submitted by certain eBay sellers went through a back channel (e.g. reholder/TV), and there are far too many examples to be one-offs. The standards have noticeably slipped. In my opinion there has been a paradigm shift in the way that toned coins are graded. Once upon a time, it appeared to me that a coin had to match well known patterns considered natural to straight grade. Now it appears to be the opposite that the coin is presumed "innocent" or "natural" unless it has certain red flags or indicators such as matching a well known AT patterns. There are exceptions of course (e.g. so called Crackle Toning), but this was the general trend. This perceived shift is dangerous IMHO as the coin doctors become better at enhancing coins with toning.
In the last 20+ years, I have seen a large number of coins with previously unseen patterns and that would have been dead on arrival in the mid to late 1990s and early 2000s that now routinely straight grade. This brings me to my next point: Forget about NT versus AT and lets look at market acceptable (MA) versus non-market acceptable. This is not a binary trait either but a spectrum. The more "natural" appearing or more a coin resembles well known patterns that occurred over time (e.g. bag toned Morgan Dollars), the higher the premium. The farther the way you move from the spectrum, the lower the premium and the more cautious one needs to be (e.g. concerns about stability). Eventually you reach non-MA and to the far extreme you hit the bake jobs. Stick to the safer end of the pool, be cautious, and only act where confident. Leave everything else for the others. Another factor I consider is stability. While I wouldn't call PCI toning AT per se, it is not very stable based on my experience (and multiple coins I have seen subsequently spot) so I avoid those mostly.
@keets said: I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now
this explains a lot, thanks for telling us. have a nice day.
Shucks, I was getting ready to post something exactly along the same lines! We are in a discussion with a young coin "Ex-Pert." Perhaps that is one reason this VERY OLD DISCUSSION keeps coming up as more young
"ex-perts" join our ranks. NT/AT, intent, time, market acceptable, etc... Nevertheless, I am enjoying the discussion and the opinions of our young "chop mark" collector. I also collect damaged coins to use in my grading seminars.
When we distill this discussion it becomes much clearer:
Some like toning, some do not.
Some consider toning damage, some do not.
Some oxidation is pretty some is not.
Some coins are "colored" on purpose and some are not.
Everyone has an opinion, no matter who they are or what they know.
And finally, 6. There is not one group of chemists or numismatist who can tell AT/NT reliably in every case!
Both of these comments were offensive to me.
I try to learn. Do I know as much as you? No. Does that mean you should write me (and all of the newcomers to the hobby off)? I should surely hope not. Otherwise, the hobby will die.
Oh wait. That's happening.
What's offensive to me is you posted some misinformation for the thousands of folks here who do not know as much AS YOU DO! I also asked YOU to educate ME about some Chinese decree you mentioned. You post above is all I got.
No one is writing you off. Although you were holding your own in this thread, your post indicated that you were making the question of toning too complicated. For your information, I assumed you were a very advanced, old, rich, opinionated, numismatist not some relatively new collector. And like it or not, our age indicates a lot about all of us as coin collecting and the world around us in the US has changed dramatically!
I judge numismatists by their posts not by their age! Many of these kids started in their teens' - lots younger than you are. NOW THEY ARE THE BIGGEST PLAYERS IN THE MARKET. Go to an ANA summer seminar and check out the YN class. BTW, I met and had a conversation with a twelve-year-old numismatic genius two years ago at the FUN SHOW who could be (sorry folks) the next John Ford or Walter Breen. His grandfather confided to me that the kid was so smart it was hard to hold his attention for more than a few months. He would become proficient in something and move on. When we met, he was collecting high-power ancients and could discuss weights, the Greek monetary system, etc. Good Night.
@cameonut2011 asked: What do you mean that "[e]verybody (sic) is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion?"
There are no requirements or qualifications necessary to have an opinion. With that said, some opinions are obviously more valuable than others for obvious reasons.
Thanks for answering your own "unnecessary question" as you already know what I meant.
Comments
Here are a couple of my "100% White" PCI coins. I'm a big fan of the pastel colors on these.
This applies only to the very early slabs with that distinctive font and 10 digit serial numbers. The later green holders with 14 digit numbers were hit and miss, and don't get me started on the gold holders.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
@Zoins Do you think it wise to crack those out at some point in the near future?
I feel like they could go terminal fairly quickly.
They sure look nice at the moment.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I do think they should be cracked out and neutralized.
this is a debate/discussion/argument that has been repeated at this site for almost 20 years now........................with no resolution in sight. the replies given by coinguy tend to echo my thoughts and display his experience in the Hobby and at this site. I marvel at the "intent" reasoning since it goes back almost that entire 20 years and always gets repeated. I think we each have to arrive at our own conclusion(s) about what happens to the surface of a coin.
to the OP coin and question, the reason they command a premium is because the Hobby has accepted that the coins in the holders were white at the time of encapsulation and after 20 years they no longer are. sent into another TPG like PCGS for "crossover service" they almost always crossover. the PCI "100% White" insert is like a CAC sticker for color and everyone knows it is.
I do think they should be cracked out and neutralized
by a collector, really??
some of the coins have a funky appearance to them, especially the outrageously toned ASE's, and if a collector cracked them out there would be a reduced chance(maybe to ZERO %) that another TPG would encapsulate them. hopefully, nobody follows your advice. the entire premium is predicated on the fact that the coins are accepted as legitimate by the Hobby, PCGS included. absent the holder they would be questionable.
you said: Because a faulty holder caused quickened toning compared to nature. Is that not the very definition of "artificial"?
only if it was intentional.
And, I do not believe that it was their intention to tone coins at the time
BHNC #203
I didn’t say by a collector. Thanks for jumping to mistaken conclusions again
I’m thinking of sending them to PCGS with instructions to neutralize with cross at any grade. They are mine so my post also isn’t advice for anyone.
They need TrueViews, like this one:
that is a confusing scenario that would probably require some kind of approval by PCGS, and since you are "thinking of sending" them I don't believe I leaped. I have never heard of PCGS doing something like that. typically a coin is sent raw, conserved and graded, so I guess you would be asking them to:
1.) note it is encapsulated.
2.) verify that it is OK and grade it.
3.) conserve the coin.
4.) re-grade it prior to encapsulation.
that sounds like a lot, so good luck.......................and don't let your boxers get in a bunch, attempt to explain yourself better.
I've heard of PCGS neutralizing coins before so I don't think it's too great of a leap. Also acetone isn't generally considered conservation.
I'm not. I expect banter with you, even with multi-paragraph, extremely detailed posts. It's not like we haven't had it before
@treasurehunt
Science disagrees with you. Your argument is completely contrived.
con·trived
/kənˈtrīvd/
adjective
deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Science doesnt care about intent. The causation of toning is either natural, or it is not (hence artificial).
Simple example to illustrate this point:
Jack is struck by a car while crossing the street and dies. The driver of the car did not intend to run into Jack. Therefore, Jack died of natural causes?
That is crazy, it makes no sense whatsoever.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
This is more interesting the second time I read it. Labeling it "AT" on a slab is different than recognizing that the toning is not natural. This distinction is probably lost on a lot of people. Make no mistake, it is artificial - it has to be by definition. However, nearly all coins from the 1800s are cleaned (but not even 90% of them are labeled as such).
There is wiggle room there.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Yes, I have seen PCI toned Morgans straight grade into PCGS holders. Most of the ones that I have seen are a little on the ugly side IMO, but I have seen some nicely toned examples. I currently have two 1880/79-S Morgans that are a couple of the better PCI toned Morgans that I have seen. They are actually quite nice with the Semi-PL surfaces, it's just too bad I cant get very good pics of them because of the semi-PL surfaces and the slab.
@TradesWithChops
Consider copper sheeting that is used to trim houses and government buildings. Goes on new, bright, shiny, and reflective. After aging for a year, is has a dull copper patina that lasts for centuries. Would you consider this change of color, to be natural or artificial? Let's not forget about the automotive gases, lawn fertilizer, and the local factory emissions that may be contributing to the color change. Would that copper sheeting still change color in a perfect environment? Maybe, but there is no perfect environment on this planet. I would personally consider the copper to have naturally toned. Are there other factors at work when it toned. Probably.
Do you have an example of something that has "naturally" toned?
Your comments are so specious that I will not consider replying with logic, since you apparently cannot understand my comments.
see:
spe·cious
/ˈspēSHəs/
adjective
adjective: specious
superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
"a specious argument"
•misleading in appearance, especially misleadingly attractive.
"the music trade gives Golden Oldies a specious appearance of novelty"
synonyms: plausible but wrong, seemingly correct, misleading, deceptive, false, fallacious, unsound, casuistic, sophistic
"a specious argument"
So, I will just ignore
BHNC #203
@HeatherBoyd - this is why I need more than 5 ignores on this board. Please reconsider increasing the limit.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I think TradesWithChops must be an alt, maybe he's pmh1nyc resurrected!!
whenever the "intent" argument is raised I have always thought it's a cute technique that tends to draw people into a "head of a pin" discussion that nobody can win. the aforementioned member excepted, most all of us know what constitutes an attempt to artificially tone a coin; encapsulation by PCI 20-30 years ago isn't one of them. the science involved in coin preservation moved forward since then, PCI saw the error of their ways and changed.
is that really hard to understand??
by the circular, convoluted nature of the "intent" argument every coin issued by the Mint would need to be immediately vacuum sealed, lest it be disqualified for consideration as anything but AT. how much fun would that be??
Not an alt.
I find it amusing that people even consider intent at all. Plenty of people have accidentally ruined coins. Tons. If you like that artificial toning, then fine. I like chop marks.
I don't understand why people have to work so hard to call an apple a pear. Enjoy the apple for what it is, but it certainly is no pear.
With PCI in particular, it corrupted ALL of the coins - and they ALL are toning. Yes, it is a pleasing color, but it is still not "natural". It is SO unnatural that it is identifiable. What else do you need???
-- eye appealing? Yes.
-- natural? No.
-- damaged? thats for the coin community to decide - by this thread alone, I must conclude "No, market acceptable."
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
No, sir, I do not. I do have one example of a toned trade dollar that I like. However, I do not think it toned naturally over time. It likely was in some holder that precipitated it.
And copper tones very quickly naturally.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
^^^ This is exactly why someone new to the hobby scoffs. I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now, but started like many in childhood. How can the exact same coin have a 0-1% chance at encapsulation if cracked out, but be completely market acceptable otherwise?
Is it POSSIBLE that is because this particular unnatural toning has become popular/accepted -- so much so -- that people are faithfully claiming that it be considered natural when all logic points to the opposite?
Perhaps this is a case of re-defining a common English word. "Artificial" means a specific thing. In the coin world, it means something different?
From what I'm gathering from you all, the definition is: "All coins that toned without the intent to tone." This makes my head spin.
And on this post, im done with this topic. MY intent is not to make enemies. Clearly there are too many emotions on this topic to have a frank/factual conversation. I'm literally traversing 20 years of mines. Who knew there were so many land mines in the coin collecting community ?! Watch out newcomers!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I'm 32 years old, have been seriously collecting coins for about 4 years now
this explains a lot, thanks for telling us. have a nice day.
You as well, sir - happy friday!!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I think that everyone just needs to agree to disagree. If you think its natural fine, if you think it's AT fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The debate on toning being acceptable and natural or not is never going to change.
Apologies if I missed someone saying something similar in this thread, though I don't recall where I heard or read it, my summary of the definition I've operated under in my own mind is:
"Natural toning occurs when coins are stored in a medium (cellophane, slab, envelope, capsules, cabinets, bags, etc.) and method that is generally accepted for coin storage, in environmental conditions that have not been manipulated (heat, humidity, gas, sulfer, etc.) to induce toning."
Yes, we can argue the definition of "generally accepted for coin storage" but IMHO it's not necessary...the industry and experienced collector community can readily recognize acceptable methods for storage at various points in history.
so over time if you take care of the coins they will give that tone look. coins are alot like wine.
Here's one I have that has decent toning. Kinda neat.
Toned coins will always sell above average if targeted to the right market. As far as with PCI, I agree with the above post on it being from their holder, though not so much on higher average than the other graders. I for one love toned coins. Would I have dropped $300 on a full band 1938d Winged Liberty? Not that one. It would have to be explosive in color, both sides equally. But that's just me. The buyer obviously likes that look so...
How many coins are "artificially white" instead of naturally white after being dipped or bathed? Color always gets the bad sayings.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I am intimately familiar with PCI toning. Thankfully, your misinformed belief is in the minority. In fact, this is the first and ONLY time i've ever heard someone state that opinion. I possibly lead a sheltered life away from toning experts. Nevertheless, all opinions are welcome and we are each judged by them.
Do you have a definition of AT you would like to share with all of us? Is the amount of time it takes for the toning to occur a consideration?
I think I just learned something new! So the Emperor ordered the merchants to chop the coins???? Where was this information published? If this is true, I should expect that chopped T$ would outnumber those that are not chopped about 5 or 6 to 1.
@TradesWithChops said: "The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that toning is damage that is market acceptable. That said, It's to the market as a whole to decide. My opinion is not representative of that collective. My opinion is that all toning is damage.
You are correct. Oxidation can be considered as damage and possibly every chemist will agree with you. Amazingly, a large majority of uninformed collectors will line up to buy all the attractively "damaged" coins they can get at stupid prices!
White coins were the thing! The owner of PCI got the idea that the graders should put the % of white on coins as a marketing ploy. No one knew something in the insert, paper or ink used for the slab would cause the coins to eventually tone. I love to see a beautifully toned coin in a PCI slab with a 100% white description on the label. All it took was time.
Trades left a LOL on this post but it is no laughing matter. That is EXACTLY the point!
AT/NT is a very difficult subject to to become proficient in. Decades ago, after hands-on experimentation plus seeing the iridescent colors old silver rounds could turn over time in a gas heated, pine paneled room, I made the decision that I don't care if a bank stored coin toned in fifty years or it happened in five minutes in a hotel room! If it looks natural and market acceptable - it is NT!
We were super conservative! Dealers would come up to the PCI table and tell us how all the "red label" problem coins crossed with straight grades at other grading services.
Ricko prefers the word tarnish over toning.
@cameonut2011....Only because it is scientifically and factually accurate... and not 'artificial'...
Cheers, RickO
I agree with you 100%. I wasn't being critical of you either.
P.S. I agree the "artificial" versus "natural" distinction can be contrived/artificial too.
@cameonut2011....I did not consider it critical.....just repartee' That is why I winked....
Cheers, RickO
Shucks, I was getting ready to post something exactly along the same lines! We are in a discussion with a young coin "Ex-Pert." Perhaps that is one reason this VERY OLD DISCUSSION keeps coming up as more young
"ex-perts" join our ranks. NT/AT, intent, time, market acceptable, etc... Nevertheless, I am enjoying the discussion and the opinions of our young "chop mark" collector. I also collect damaged coins to use in my grading seminars.
When we distill this discussion it becomes much clearer:
And finally, 6. There is not one group of chemists or numismatist who can tell AT/NT reliably in every case!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TradesWithChops said: "I collect strictly trade dollars with chop marks, which is PMD. I'm glad PCGS grades them as chop marks, and I find historical value to that - but it is post mint damage. Albeit, PMD ORDERED BY THE EMPEROR of China!**
I am STILL WAITING to be educated! Please reply.
Where did your information that the Emperor ordered the merchants to chop the coins come from???? Where was this information published? If this is true, I should expect that chopped T$ would outnumber those that are not chopped about 5 or 6 to 1.
Some coins would almost universally be considered NT, some considered AT and the rest will fall somewhere in between. Everybody's never going to agree on AT/NT, so I figure the best way to proceed is to just decide if I like the toning on a coin and go from there.
Thats crazy to hear. I guess grading standards have loosened or changed over the years then?
Both of these comments were offensive to me.
I try to learn. Do I know as much as you? No. Does that mean you should write me (and all of the newcomers to the hobby off)? I should surely hope not. Otherwise, the hobby will die.
Oh wait. That's happening.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
The problem is this. Everybody is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion about AT/NT one way or the other. Least of all, the majority of us posting here. We are not casting votes where you can fill out a ballot without knowing anything going on around you. Fortunately, there are a few TPGS usually rendering a better-informed opinion. Unfortunately, they make mistakes like the rest of us.
Yes, grading standards have loosened BIG TIME. While I graded at PCI (1990-94) we were strict. When the company was sold, it really went to hell.
I did not mean to imply that the emperor ordered all chop marks by merchants to be applied. There is a subset of marks that were applied (mostly to '73 coins) that were involved in an emperor ordered study of the coins. I dont have a source readily available, and im on vacation at present.
Ill try to get one when i return.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
What do you mean that "[e]verybody (sic) is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion?" There are no requirements or qualifications necessary to have an opinion. With that said, some opinions are obviously more valuable than others for obvious reasons. I also think you are giving the grading services way too much credit.
Not every AT coin that slips by the services submitted by certain eBay sellers went through a back channel (e.g. reholder/TV), and there are far too many examples to be one-offs. The standards have noticeably slipped. In my opinion there has been a paradigm shift in the way that toned coins are graded. Once upon a time, it appeared to me that a coin had to match well known patterns considered natural to straight grade. Now it appears to be the opposite that the coin is presumed "innocent" or "natural" unless it has certain red flags or indicators such as matching a well known AT patterns. There are exceptions of course (e.g. so called Crackle Toning), but this was the general trend. This perceived shift is dangerous IMHO as the coin doctors become better at enhancing coins with toning.
In the last 20+ years, I have seen a large number of coins with previously unseen patterns and that would have been dead on arrival in the mid to late 1990s and early 2000s that now routinely straight grade. This brings me to my next point: Forget about NT versus AT and lets look at market acceptable (MA) versus non-market acceptable. This is not a binary trait either but a spectrum. The more "natural" appearing or more a coin resembles well known patterns that occurred over time (e.g. bag toned Morgan Dollars), the higher the premium. The farther the way you move from the spectrum, the lower the premium and the more cautious one needs to be (e.g. concerns about stability). Eventually you reach non-MA and to the far extreme you hit the bake jobs. Stick to the safer end of the pool, be cautious, and only act where confident. Leave everything else for the others. Another factor I consider is stability. While I wouldn't call PCI toning AT per se, it is not very stable based on my experience (and multiple coins I have seen subsequently spot) so I avoid those mostly.
What's offensive to me is you posted some misinformation for the thousands of folks here who do not know as much AS YOU DO! I also asked YOU to educate ME about some Chinese decree you mentioned. You post above is all I got.
No one is writing you off. Although you were holding your own in this thread, your post indicated that you were making the question of toning too complicated. For your information, I assumed you were a very advanced, old, rich, opinionated, numismatist not some relatively new collector. And like it or not, our age indicates a lot about all of us as coin collecting and the world around us in the US has changed dramatically!
I judge numismatists by their posts not by their age! Many of these kids started in their teens' - lots younger than you are. NOW THEY ARE THE BIGGEST PLAYERS IN THE MARKET. Go to an ANA summer seminar and check out the YN class. BTW, I met and had a conversation with a twelve-year-old numismatic genius two years ago at the FUN SHOW who could be (sorry folks) the next John Ford or Walter Breen. His grandfather confided to me that the kid was so smart it was hard to hold his attention for more than a few months. He would become proficient in something and move on. When we met, he was collecting high-power ancients and could discuss weights, the Greek monetary system, etc. Good Night.
I just bought these. Premium but not wildly priced.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
@cameonut2011 asked: What do you mean that "[e]verybody (sic) is NOT QUALIFIED to have an opinion?"
There are no requirements or qualifications necessary to have an opinion. With that said, some opinions are obviously more valuable than others for obvious reasons.
Thanks for answering your own "unnecessary
question" as you already know what I meant.
Goodnight to you also.