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Why do PCI toners command such high premiums?
Skrill90
Posts: 264 ✭✭✭
I was wondering why are PCI toners so special and command such a premium?
Were they the go to service for toners to be graded back in the day? Are these susceptible to gassing? or do they just turn in the holder?
I saw this dime sell a couple weeks back for a nice premium and its been on my mind ever since...
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PCI's holder insert was/is notorious for target toning, that is from the rim inwards, fairly evenly.
For whatever reason, since it was unintentional and/or happened over a period of time, it's market acceptable today.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
PCI toning is generally pleasing as it’s colorful and progressive with smooth transition in color.
The first thing I did when looking at that auction was to see if it was still available
I wonder if anyone buys old PCI slabs to our new coins inside for toning? Like Meghrig Wayte Raymond albums?
With good photos, the seller might have doubled his top bid.....
...nothing sells better than time...that’s all
I consider PCI toning to be AT.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Agreed. I understand the debatability of "intention" but the look of them does not sit right with me.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Why?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's hard for me to see PCI as "AT" but perhaps it may not be "MA" to some people.
Objectively classifying toning from unintentional storage as "AT" seems like it could put a lot toning like album toning and bag toning into the AT category.
You see a lot of PCGS coins with PCI target toning, some are even advertised as such.
Search on fleaBay for coins, term PCI (in the description) and choose PCGS certification. Over time you'll see them...
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dcat=11975&_fsrp=1&_nkw=pci&_sacat=11116&_from=R40&rt=nc&Certification=PCGS
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I'll bet it doesn't look very nice in hand. Pretty sharp angles to get pics like that.
I have a PCI that turned near black like the majority of the fields on that dime.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
That was a BIN, but maybe if they listed it for $600 they could have doubled the sale price.
Ignorance is bliss, huh?
I have a hard time seeing it as natural, when it is caused by us- intentionally or not. All one has to do is lie about their intentions.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
The interesting thing is that people have reported some PCI toners continuing to tone even after they've been cracked and transferred to PCGS slabs. I wonder if they need to be neutralized before reslabbing?
It's not ignorance, it's just saying that this line of reasoning seems to also lead to saying bag toned Morgans and album toned CBHs would end up in the same category. Is that your intention?
Because a faulty holder caused quickened toning compared to nature. Is that not the very definition of "artificial"?
Answer:
ar·ti·fi·cial
/ˌärdəˈfiSHəl/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.
"her skin glowed in the artificial light"
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
What about a faulty canvas bag or coin album?
Sure, I'm comfortable with that. Why is it okay for some to artificially tone coins and others not?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It's okay if you're consistent which it seems like you are.
I just think you'll have a much harder time convincing people bag-toned Morgans and other album-toned coins are AT.
The US Mint causes plenty of problems in coins- as do banks processing those coins. Why is toning treated differently?
Is it because color looks better than milky spots? heh.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
That's just because people like them - and they are haters.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Of course, the next step is to say all toning is corrosion like @ricko
Weird. my last statement got cut out saying it will appear when it is approved.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Science != Marketing coins.
What the masses likes often causes grading companies to compromise on science.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I mean, no disrespect to people who love the PCI's.
I collect strictly trade dollars with chop marks, which is PMD. I'm glad PCGS grades them as chop marks, and I find historical value to that - but it is post mint damage. Albeit, PMD ordered by the Emperor of China!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It's not just PCI, but also PCGS because PCGS slabs them as MA.
And apparently, you think bag-toned Morgans are AT as well.
That is correct. That is my current understanding. Feel free to disagree. To disagree is a slippery slope though. Then, you have to decide which actions are natural, and which ones are not.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
While you included a dictionary definition for “artificial”, that’s not a generally accepted one pertaining to toning on coins. Under that definition, any toning that occurs as a result of man made products - even those made for coin storage - would be “artificial”. What toning, if any, would you consider to be natural?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where do you draw the line?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
That is the million dollar question. The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that toning is damage that is market acceptable.
That said, It's to the market as a whole to decide. My opinion is not representative of that collective.
My opinion is that all toning is damage.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Drawing a line in the “right” place and coming up with a definition which will satisfy (nearly) everyone is probably impossible. But that doesn’t stop some of us from trying.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Are all your coins white?
They have some pretty other dimes!
Canvas bags, government packaging, coin albums, paper sleeves, PCI slabs all have imparted toning on coins. The difference between AT and NT in my opinion is time. Did this toning take years to happen or weeks?
I'm sure the Founder of PCI had no intention of his slabs toning coins. At that time in history, white coins were sought after. Toning would have ruined the coins in many eyes of that era. His choice of materials for the slabs just happen to be the wrong combination. I took years for the PCI holders to impart color on the coins, and decades for the canvas bags to color the Morgans. I am a fan of PCI toned Silver Eagles as they are easy to differentiate from the multitudes of AT Silver Eagle stuff out there. There uniqueness (toning pattern) is why I still choose to own a few.
So, based on your timetable, if a coin tones too quickly in a canvas bag, govt. packaging, paper sleeves, an album, etc., it’s “AT”, but if it doesn’t, it’s not?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No- I do have one toned 1876-cc trade dollar, and a few other minor toned coins as well. They all have chop marks
You can look at my collection here: https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3058.
I do like the look of some toned coins, even if I consider it damage - the same as I like chop marks.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Here is my PCI toned piece. Explosive color in hand.
Also many of the coins were very accurately graded some even conservatively. This dime had been graded 64 non full band by PCI.
That's correct. I have yet to see someone post a beautiful toner that they had in a taco bell napkin for a year. Toned? Yes. Beautiful? No. The really nice stuff seems to take time. Would love to see a picture of accelerated toning that looks anything close to the ASE above. I have experimented.
While intention is certainly a consideration to make, I only find it helpful to a certain point.
1) I think that all intentional toning is artificial.
2) I think that some intentional and thus artificial toning is acceptable. For example, items placed in albums or on windowsills with the direct purpose of inciting toning, are acceptable to me. I often am able to separate these types of intentionally (artificially) toned items as acceptable because they, to put it simply, take a long time to create (although "a long time" is an ambiguous phrase and they can still be made in bulk). Perhaps another way of putting it is that these acceptable artificially-toned items are purposefully made, but using methods that were originally used for other purposes and unintentionally resulted in toning. Neither of these "definitions" cover everything.
3) I think that all unintentional toning is natural.
4) I think that some unintentional and thus natural toning is not acceptable. Let's say at one point it was common practice to store coins in sulfur powder for whatever reason, but the intention was not to create toning. The resulting toning would be extreme, but unintentional. I personally would not find these acceptable, because of the appearance of the coin. Another scenario: a person uses a method known to cause unacceptable artificial toning, but he does not know this is the case and the resulting toning is thus unintentional. Does that make the toning acceptable? No. Is there a way to precisely define the difference between acceptable and unacceptable natural toning? Probably not.
In the end it all comes down to my personal preference in distinguishing between what I find acceptable and not acceptable, because it cannot be logically categorized. I feel that I generally have a pretty good eye for this and, while I love toned coins and mainly collect them, I am very, very particular about the ones I buy. I am very quick to reject coins that I find to potentially be problematic, even if other people are paying thousands for their color. I personally do not find PCI toning to be acceptable, because it is too extreme in appearance and very closely mimics gassed coins in color. It is also too modern a method for me, a little bit too "man-made", and the toning occurs too quickly relative to other methods that I find more acceptable.
In this vein, at the moment it comes down to personal preference for everyone in making this distinction between acceptable and not acceptable toning. This is the difficulty that third-party grading services are left to deal with: they must decide this uncertain, unscientific, and unpredictable distinction for the public when they grade coins, based on what they feel the market generally finds to be acceptable.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Obviously, I cant know for certain, but my guess is that you have seen some beautiful coins that did tone quickly. But that you weren’t aware if it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This isn't intended to be argumentative, but I think judging based on intent can be problematic. For example, suppose you put a silver eagle in a particular type of album because you know it will tone the coin, while some guy across town puts the same type coin into the same type of album, knowing nothing about the possibility of the coin ending up toned. A couple of years pass and each silver eagle is similarly toned, with the toning on one being artificial and the other natural?
You're just agreeing with me lol
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
To answer the OP, simply because people like them.
A large part of the market views this general appearance as acceptable and a smaller but significant part of the market finds them to be quite desirable. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
As for the NT/AT debate, will someone here please wake me up when everyone finally agrees on something?
It didn’t sound that way to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s a possibility.
He only quoted part of my comment. His statement is supported in the rest of the comment.
My first sentence was "While intention is certainly a consideration to make, I only find it helpful to a certain point." I provided examples parallel to the one about silver eagles in lines 2) and 4).
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My comment was not related to "acceptable" vs. "not acceptable" toning. I was pointing out that using intent as a measuring gauge can get one into the position of identifying the toning of basically identical coins as both artificial and natural.
Apologies for the confusion.
Thank you. My apologies for turning this into a back-and-forth.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
One thing I've seen is that PCI ASEs get straight graded by our hosts, but I've seen PCI graded Morgans with the same style of toning get QC. Has anyone ever seen a straight graded PCI target toned Morgan?
Don't quote me on that.