Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Someone brought it to my attention at one time... A CAC stickered Coin doesn't mean its a solid or PQ coin, in a sense it does, but it doesn't. It more or less means THAT CAC would buy it , if they had BIDS attached to those coins, thats where the market comes from. Therefore there are coins that CAC may not sticker that Are for sure PQ.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinflip said:
Someone brought it to my attention at one time... A CAC stickered Coin doesn't mean its a solid or PQ coin, in a sense it does, but it doesn't. It more or less means THAT CAC would buy it , if they had BIDS attached to those coins, thats where the market comes from. Therefore there are coins that CAC may not sticker that Are for sure PQ.
That is incorrect. If a coin meets CAC’s standards, they will sticker it, regardless of whether they’d have interest in buying it. There are numerous coin types and grades for which they don’t make markets, but which they accept for submission and sticker, if they feel it’s warranted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Having just returned from the Houston Summer show (set up) there were no CAC coins of significant quantity on the bourse floor. Nobody came up to my table asking for CAC nor seemed to care if material stickered. I do buy nice CAC I find exceptional PQ if price allows me some room. The few I had in my cases, no takers. ANACs was there very busy. I bought several Classic Commems and some very cheap MS63-64 dollars fo $30 to $40 from the major wholesaler setup next to me. How much cheaper can the they go. Go Silver!
Just buy nice coins and have fun.
Please show me some more your CAC rejects. Above pics not been to CAC I know of, just nice coins. Bought them below bid after going thru inventory major wholesaler. None of my purch st show CAC. I would have bought 2 of his other coins non CAC (offered at or below bid) both Nice PQ PCGS MS65 $20 Lib and $10Lib but more there sell than buy as a possible estate (assembled years ago) purchase on horizon. I was going ask him his thoughts on CAC but backed off lol.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
I was going to add to this but what he said is perfect. This is why I value a CAC sticker.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
What you said makes perfect sense for collectors who are extremely proficient at grading, including coin doctoring. And who can either view prospective purchases in-hand or have a reliable contact do so on their behalf. But many collectors who think they are sufficiently expert, aren’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
What you said makes perfect sense for collectors who are extremely proficient at grading, including coin doctoring. And who can either view prospective purchases in-hand or have a reliable contact do so on their behalf. But many collectors who think they are sufficiently expert, aren’t.
Mark don’t you think PCGS and NGC with their experts and guarantee weeds out 99.9 % of the issues you mentioned. You know I value your opinion since you reviewed numerous coins for me prior to your HA employment.
Craig, I think they do an excellent job, overall. Still, I believe that there are many coins which merit an additional highly expert opinion, which happens to be low-cost. And it should be up to each individual to determine which coins, if any, fall into that category, as well as what premium to pay for a coin that has already been stickered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@washingtonrainbows said:
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general.
From what I've read, people go to him for his opinion because he's knowledgeable, not to make him knowledgeable.
The “CAC premium” does not bother me. You can play or pass on that one. The thing that does bother me is the “mark of Cain” that some people put on coins that don’t have the sticker. Here are some reasons why some coins don’t have sticker:
• The coin is over graded for the grade assigned.
• The coin has preservation or numismatic abuse issues.
• CAC does not like the coin for some reason that may not bother other people, especially specialists in a given area
• CAC has not seen the coin.
There are “optimistically graded” coins that can still be a good or decent deal at the right price. There are instances I have purchased a coin that was not “all there” because I didn’t want to pay the price for the one that is “all there.” Sometimes the opportunity to buy the “all there coin” is rarer than the piece itself.
For example, I wanted to put together the Charlotte and Dahlonega Mint gold coin type sets. One of the coins in the Charlotte set is the 1839-C half eagle with the mint mark on the obverse. Doug Winter estimates a total population of 150 to 200 pieces known, and he estimates 22 to 30 pieces in AU, which usually my target grade.
I purchased one in a Heritage auction in a PCGS AU-53 holder. The piece has the detail, but it’s been dipped. It would never in million years get a CAC sticker, but it’s at a price I’m willing to pay to fill the hole.
A couple years later, one of the southern gold specialist dealers showed me “the perfect AU” example of that coin. For some folks it has problems. It’s in an NGC holder with no CAC sticker. That doesn’t matter to me, but two other issues do matter. One, the price would have been around $20,000, which more than I wanted to pay to fill the slot. Two, it had already been sold to someone else, so I never had a shot at it.
Sometimes when you put up too many barriers - condition, price, grading service, CAC approval, acceptable eye appeal – you have to make compromises or you will never complete anything.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
What you said makes perfect sense for collectors who are extremely proficient at grading, including coin doctoring. And who can either view prospective purchases in-hand or have a reliable contact do so on their behalf. But many collectors who think they are sufficiently expert, aren’t.
Mark don’t you think PCGS and NGC with their experts and guarantee weeds out 99.9 % of the issues you mentioned. You know I value your opinion since you reviewed numerous coins for me prior to your HA employment.
Craig, I think they do an excellent job, overall. Still, I believe that there are many coins which merit an additional highly expert opinion, which happens to be low-cost.
It also depends on the coin. Maybe I could understand your position a bit more for a choice or gem uncirculated early federal gold coin where 85%+ of it has probably been messed with in some way. There have been threads here with people literally stressing over whether their common date MS65 Morgan or Peace Dollar will sticker. I think you would agree that is a bit much.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
What you said makes perfect sense for collectors who are extremely proficient at grading, including coin doctoring. And who can either view prospective purchases in-hand or have a reliable contact do so on their behalf. But many collectors who think they are sufficiently expert, aren’t.
Mark don’t you think PCGS and NGC with their experts and guarantee weeds out 99.9 % of the issues you mentioned. You know I value your opinion since you reviewed numerous coins for me prior to your HA employment.
Craig, I think they do an excellent job, overall. Still, I believe that there are many coins which merit an additional highly expert opinion, which happens to be low-cost.
It also depends on the coin. Maybe I could understand your position a bit more for a choice or gem uncirculated early federal gold coin where 85%+ of it has probably been messed with in some way. There have been threads here with people literally stressing over whether their common date MS65 Morgan or Peace Dollar will sticker. I think you would agree that is a bit much.
Of course I agree with your “a bit much”. After all, I wrote “many coins”, not “most coins”. And, as just one general example, there are a great many four-figure coins, such as lower grade unc. generic gold pieces, about which I’d say the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
It takes a lot for one expert to ask another for help. It’s respect.
If there was a Mount Rushmore of coin talent for the and expertise of the TPG era JA would be on it.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
It takes a lot for one expert to ask another for help. It’s respect.
If there was a Mount Rushmore of coin talent for the and expertise of the TPG era JA would be on it.
m
I see experts daily getting second opinions a true expert does not let their ego get in the way.
I think that is what a lot of us are saying when we state that we value getting JA's advice.
Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Interesting however going to another person for their opinion on isolated issues does not automatically make that person more knowledgeable in general. Certainly John D and David H are in same playing field as JA. I would assume JA has gone to both of them for their opinion. No question in my mind that JA has forgotten more about coins than I will ever know. Do I need his endorsement in the small area that I collect to make buying decisions? No. I have studied my area of interest and have looked at thousands of coins. I would venture to say 75% of people who post here don’t need the CAC sticker to determine if a coin is an A or B level coin. If you don’t need the opinion then why do so many people happily pay the inflated green bean premium. To me it just doesn’t make sense to pay an additional premium for a coin that I know is nice.
It takes a lot for one expert to ask another for help. It’s respect.
If there was a Mount Rushmore of coin talent for the and expertise of the TPG era JA would be on it.
m
I see experts daily getting second opinions a true expert does not let their ego get in the way.
I think that is what a lot of us are saying when we state that we value getting JA's advice.
Difference is, a lot of us don’t want or need the advice and that advice can be very expensive.
If the advice was free ie no added tax when purchasing a coin then it would be similar scenario.
Well you said a true expert does not let their ego get in the way and then go on to state that " a lot of us don't want or need the advice." Yes-- JA's advice is not free but to submit a coin valued at less than 10k for $14 and a coin that cost more than 10K for $29 seems to me not "very expensive." If you are talking about coins valued less than a $1000 I can see your point a bit more.
This could be a very instructive thread if it stays on course. Thanks to those who have been instructive. Hate to be preachy but the rest of it we've heard umpteen times.
If I go to a coin show and a top, top grader looks at each table and puts up a white board and lists the best coins currently for sale at the show. The dealers owning those coins all raise their price. Now it costs me more to buy a coin that was flagged as top coin. Sure, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that the top grader was respected enough to have an influence on the coin prices and thus I need to pay more if I want a recommended coin.
I was trying to buy a position on a particular stock. As I was in the process of acquiring a larger position an analyst raised his price target and the priced moved up. I didn't need the analysts opinion but he exists and many follow his opinion. The same concept operates in many industries.
Got to agree with @washingtonrainbows. Everything created in this system is created to benefit the dealers and TPGs. The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?
@AlexinPA said:
Got to agree with @washingtonrainbows. Everything created in this system is created to benefit the dealers and TPGs. The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?
If you’re consistently able to find non-CAC coins and have them CAC you’re going to get the CAC premium when you sell the coin. If you buy a CAC coin and then sell it you’re not costing yourself any additional money. When you bought the coin you paid the CAC premium and when you sell it you’re getting the CAC premium back. Some folks are very good at identifying coins that will CAC, most of us probably aren’t. I’m also going to make the assumption that most 4 figure + coins have made a trip to CAC.
@AlexinPA said:
Got to agree with @washingtonrainbows. Everything created in this system is created to benefit the dealers and TPGs. The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?
Many collectors submit to CAC and benefit when they sell their coins. You sound as if collectors never sell. Collectors can also benefit from CAC's feedback, whether a coin stickers or not. And CAC has likely slowed the pace of grade-flation. I think that's a good thing for collectors, though perhaps you disagree.
As I recall, you have posted that you've never used CAC's services. You might feel differently if you had.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@AlexinPA said:
Got to agree with @washingtonrainbows. Everything created in this system is created to benefit the dealers and TPGs. The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?
I strongly disagree with this statement. Getting feedback on coins you have purchased for a very modest fee is worth every penny. It’s like sitting down with a respected dealer with a good eye and chatting about your coins. JA and his team have seen tens of thousands of coins, WAY more than most collectors.
Whether or not you want to pay up for a coin with a bean is up to you. But calibrating your eye from an expert, learning about the all the ways coins have been “helped” over the years is very helpful.
From my perspective CAC helps the collector more than other players.
@oldabeintx said:
This could be a very instructive thread if it stays on course. Thanks to those who have been instructive. Hate to be preachy but the rest of it we've heard umpteen times.
Just don’t read the whole post that you don’t like simple.
Roger that, Just hoping to get back on the rails and learn something about how JA makes his calls.
...I can honestly say that I am surprised that JA never questioned why the hell I sent him so many widgets...the checks never bounce over here so probably that’s why...but all the Whales here at CU can thank @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD for keeping JA’s eyes robustly fresh; as all of my coins were his wine tasting crackers in between real submissions. Looking back now I may have even sent him a couple coins that were valued less than a single roll or his stickers before leaving the production factory.
P.S. If I could do it all over again I wouldn’t have changed a thing!
@BillJones said:
The “CAC premium” does not bother me. You can play or pass on that one. The thing that does bother me is the “mark of Cain” that some people put on coins that don’t have the sticker.
If it is just a minority of collectors that put the "mark of cain" on non cac coins then it shouldn't bother you. There are always people that will be negative about everything. If it is large number of people that think that way, it may be worth adjusting to the new market. If you don't care one way or the other, then it should not bother you at all.
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
@Gazes said:
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
@Gazes said:
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
@Gazes said:
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
I do miss the coin but it found a good home in the Hansen Collection.
So you sold a beautiful coin that is tied for the finest graded because CAC did not put its sticker on it.
SAD.
I hope that you are among a minority of collectors because if a large majority of collectors start thinking as you do, this hobby will be finished.
Doug Winter says that he knowns of only 3 to 5 pieces that actually grade Mint State, and you had one of the best examples.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Gazes said:
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
I do miss the coin but it found a good home in the Hansen Collection.
So you sold a beautiful coin that is tied for the finest graded because CAC did not put its sticker on it.
SAD.
I hope that you are among a minority of collectors because if a large majority of collectors start thinking as you do, this hobby will be finished.
Doug Winter says that he knowns of only 3 to 5 pieces that actually grade Mint State, and you had one of the best examples.
Where did I say I sold it because CAC didn't sticker it???? I said why I bought it even though it did not sticker. It was one of the coins I sold through Doug as the KY Collection of about 20 liberty quarter eagles (all the others were CAC). Not sure why you think I sold it since it was non cac.
@Gazes said:
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
Okay, enlighten me. Why did you sell the coin, @Gazes?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Not pq enough; "abrasions"; a "B-"; PVC, which usually involves subsequent conservation with a lot more time and expense. And then more postage/insurance and another cac submission which may be thumbs down again.
Here is an interesting example of cac's judgment:
CAC said it was puttied. So I sent it to PCGS under their warranty/guarantee, 4 month wait for Presidential review and conservation. The coin comes back, send it to CAC again; this time they said it had been "tooled"; he said it should never be in a straight graded holder! I send it back to PCGS under their warranty with CAC's comments. That takes another 3-4 months, they admit it has the issue give me two choices, I get the coin back in a problem holder. I send it in to NGC raw, they call it MS63 like PCGS did, did not see the supposed "tooling" as a problem.
@BillJones said:
Okay, enlighten me. Why did you sell the coin, @Gazes?
So this thread is about coins you love that did not pass CAC. I tried to post a coin I once owned that did not pass CAC. I tried to put information about the coin that I thought others would find helpful (i.e. color, condition, link to a pic, census info). I never said anything that should cause anyone to think I sold it because it was non cac. If fact, it was the opposite---I said why I bought it regardless of CAC. You commented mistakenly on my motive and called it sad. Instead of admitting you read something into it that was not there, you have doubled down and ask why I sold it. This thread has nothing to do with decisions about selling coins and quite frankly its none of your business why I sold it. If you are interested in the 20 or so coins I sold along with it, Doug wrote a nice article on the Kentucky collection about my coins that he sold.
Comments
Did you -
1. send in an image of the coin in the previous holder?
2. send in the previous cert?
If you did 1 and 2, then you will get the rebean every time (so far with me at least)......
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Just above average? What a crock of poo. What a silly statement. Hard to take anything you say seriously on the subject. That’s like saying you’re average. Good grief man.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I wonder how many coins John looks at
everyday ?
I would say he’s not only above average but at the top of the pyramid.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Someone brought it to my attention at one time... A CAC stickered Coin doesn't mean its a solid or PQ coin, in a sense it does, but it doesn't. It more or less means THAT CAC would buy it , if they had BIDS attached to those coins, thats where the market comes from. Therefore there are coins that CAC may not sticker that Are for sure PQ.
RAD#306
He is. I once saw John Dannreuther and David Hall grab John Albanese 10 minutes apart to ask his opinion on something they hadn’t seen before or were unsure of. John Albanese is who the experts go for answers. The dude co founded PCGS, he founded NGC. He founded CAC. He graded over 1,000,000 coins at NGC. He looked at over 1,000,000 coins at CAC. No one can detect monkied with coins better then John. He’s seen it all. There is no one better. Maybe a few as good but I’m thinking that’s even a stretch. Just above average? Please
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That is incorrect. If a coin meets CAC’s standards, they will sticker it, regardless of whether they’d have interest in buying it. There are numerous coin types and grades for which they don’t make markets, but which they accept for submission and sticker, if they feel it’s warranted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Having just returned from the Houston Summer show (set up) there were no CAC coins of significant quantity on the bourse floor. Nobody came up to my table asking for CAC nor seemed to care if material stickered. I do buy nice CAC I find exceptional PQ if price allows me some room. The few I had in my cases, no takers. ANACs was there very busy. I bought several Classic Commems and some very cheap MS63-64 dollars fo $30 to $40 from the major wholesaler setup next to me. How much cheaper can the they go. Go Silver!
Just buy nice coins and have fun.
Please show me some more your CAC rejects. Above pics not been to CAC I know of, just nice coins. Bought them below bid after going thru inventory major wholesaler. None of my purch st show CAC. I would have bought 2 of his other coins non CAC (offered at or below bid) both Nice PQ PCGS MS65 $20 Lib and $10Lib but more there sell than buy as a possible estate (assembled years ago) purchase on horizon. I was going ask him his thoughts on CAC but backed off lol.
I was going to add to this but what he said is perfect. This is why I value a CAC sticker.
What you said makes perfect sense for collectors who are extremely proficient at grading, including coin doctoring. And who can either view prospective purchases in-hand or have a reliable contact do so on their behalf. But many collectors who think they are sufficiently expert, aren’t.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Craig, I think they do an excellent job, overall. Still, I believe that there are many coins which merit an additional highly expert opinion, which happens to be low-cost. And it should be up to each individual to determine which coins, if any, fall into that category, as well as what premium to pay for a coin that has already been stickered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From what I've read, people go to him for his opinion because he's knowledgeable, not to make him knowledgeable.
The “CAC premium” does not bother me. You can play or pass on that one. The thing that does bother me is the “mark of Cain” that some people put on coins that don’t have the sticker. Here are some reasons why some coins don’t have sticker:
• The coin is over graded for the grade assigned.
• The coin has preservation or numismatic abuse issues.
• CAC does not like the coin for some reason that may not bother other people, especially specialists in a given area
• CAC has not seen the coin.
There are “optimistically graded” coins that can still be a good or decent deal at the right price. There are instances I have purchased a coin that was not “all there” because I didn’t want to pay the price for the one that is “all there.” Sometimes the opportunity to buy the “all there coin” is rarer than the piece itself.
For example, I wanted to put together the Charlotte and Dahlonega Mint gold coin type sets. One of the coins in the Charlotte set is the 1839-C half eagle with the mint mark on the obverse. Doug Winter estimates a total population of 150 to 200 pieces known, and he estimates 22 to 30 pieces in AU, which usually my target grade.
I purchased one in a Heritage auction in a PCGS AU-53 holder. The piece has the detail, but it’s been dipped. It would never in million years get a CAC sticker, but it’s at a price I’m willing to pay to fill the hole.
A couple years later, one of the southern gold specialist dealers showed me “the perfect AU” example of that coin. For some folks it has problems. It’s in an NGC holder with no CAC sticker. That doesn’t matter to me, but two other issues do matter. One, the price would have been around $20,000, which more than I wanted to pay to fill the slot. Two, it had already been sold to someone else, so I never had a shot at it.
Sometimes when you put up too many barriers - condition, price, grading service, CAC approval, acceptable eye appeal – you have to make compromises or you will never complete anything.
It also depends on the coin. Maybe I could understand your position a bit more for a choice or gem uncirculated early federal gold coin where 85%+ of it has probably been messed with in some way. There have been threads here with people literally stressing over whether their common date MS65 Morgan or Peace Dollar will sticker. I think you would agree that is a bit much.
I did not. Thank you for your suggestions. I will let you know the result.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Of course I agree with your “a bit much”. After all, I wrote “many coins”, not “most coins”. And, as just one general example, there are a great many four-figure coins, such as lower grade unc. generic gold pieces, about which I’d say the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It takes a lot for one expert to ask another for help. It’s respect.
If there was a Mount Rushmore of coin talent for the and expertise of the TPG era JA would be on it.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
NGC MS64 - not surprised it didn’t sticker, color is questionable but it’s a lovely coin in hand regardless.
PCGS VF20 - I felt sure this one would sticker, but alas it did not.
Edited to No Comment.
I think that is what a lot of us are saying when we state that we value getting JA's advice.
Well you said a true expert does not let their ego get in the way and then go on to state that " a lot of us don't want or need the advice." Yes-- JA's advice is not free but to submit a coin valued at less than 10k for $14 and a coin that cost more than 10K for $29 seems to me not "very expensive." If you are talking about coins valued less than a $1000 I can see your point a bit more.
This could be a very instructive thread if it stays on course. Thanks to those who have been instructive. Hate to be preachy but the rest of it we've heard umpteen times.
Maybe I am not understanding the issue?
If I go to a coin show and a top, top grader looks at each table and puts up a white board and lists the best coins currently for sale at the show. The dealers owning those coins all raise their price. Now it costs me more to buy a coin that was flagged as top coin. Sure, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that the top grader was respected enough to have an influence on the coin prices and thus I need to pay more if I want a recommended coin.
I was trying to buy a position on a particular stock. As I was in the process of acquiring a larger position an analyst raised his price target and the priced moved up. I didn't need the analysts opinion but he exists and many follow his opinion. The same concept operates in many industries.
Got to agree with @washingtonrainbows. Everything created in this system is created to benefit the dealers and TPGs. The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?
If you’re consistently able to find non-CAC coins and have them CAC you’re going to get the CAC premium when you sell the coin. If you buy a CAC coin and then sell it you’re not costing yourself any additional money. When you bought the coin you paid the CAC premium and when you sell it you’re getting the CAC premium back. Some folks are very good at identifying coins that will CAC, most of us probably aren’t. I’m also going to make the assumption that most 4 figure + coins have made a trip to CAC.
Many collectors submit to CAC and benefit when they sell their coins. You sound as if collectors never sell. Collectors can also benefit from CAC's feedback, whether a coin stickers or not. And CAC has likely slowed the pace of grade-flation. I think that's a good thing for collectors, though perhaps you disagree.
As I recall, you have posted that you've never used CAC's services. You might feel differently if you had.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I strongly disagree with this statement. Getting feedback on coins you have purchased for a very modest fee is worth every penny. It’s like sitting down with a respected dealer with a good eye and chatting about your coins. JA and his team have seen tens of thousands of coins, WAY more than most collectors.
Whether or not you want to pay up for a coin with a bean is up to you. But calibrating your eye from an expert, learning about the all the ways coins have been “helped” over the years is very helpful.
From my perspective CAC helps the collector more than other players.
My current "Box of 20"
"You sound as if collectors never sell." ("The collector, who does not sell coins for profit, benefits how?")
Thank you very much for your replies.
Good thread...
My YouTube Channel
Roger that, Just hoping to get back on the rails and learn something about how JA makes his calls.
...I can honestly say that I am surprised that JA never questioned why the hell I sent him so many widgets...the checks never bounce over here so probably that’s why...but all the Whales here at CU can thank @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD for keeping JA’s eyes robustly fresh; as all of my coins were his wine tasting crackers in between real submissions. Looking back now I may have even sent him a couple coins that were valued less than a single roll or his stickers before leaving the production factory.
P.S. If I could do it all over again I wouldn’t have changed a thing!
Presumably because of the weak strike (VF-30)
Cacflation lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
If it is just a minority of collectors that put the "mark of cain" on non cac coins then it shouldn't bother you. There are always people that will be negative about everything. If it is large number of people that think that way, it may be worth adjusting to the new market. If you don't care one way or the other, then it should not bother you at all.
I really liked a 1850-D quarter eagle that was pcgs ms 62 that I owned (I sold it a couple years ago). The coin had a great caramel and greenish color that was right for the date. Very clean except for a small mint made planchet in the left obverse.
The coin was not CAC but I bought it because 1) as I described the coin above it was very attractive from that mint 2) there were no coins graded higher than 62 at pcgs 3) at the time there was only one cac unc coin for this date and it was a ms 60 (this coin was clearly superior to it)(since then cac stickered a ms 61) 4) I had a second opinion I trusted about the coin 5) I'll repeat-- a coin from this mint and for this date looked better than almost anything I've seen in unc. for an 1850-d
why did cac not sticker it? I dont know but If i had to guess it was the mint made depression. By the way, the PCGS 61 CAC that later sold broke a record for this date $28,800 ---higher than any pcgs 62.
Here is my former coin
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1850-d-2-50/7757
I do miss the coin but it found a good home in the Hansen Collection.
Do you know how it left your collection and found i's way into the Hansen collection?
Yes---it was sold as part of the Kentucky Collection by Doug Winter. I assumed Hansen bought it directly from Doug.
So you sold a beautiful coin that is tied for the finest graded because CAC did not put its sticker on it.
SAD.
I hope that you are among a minority of collectors because if a large majority of collectors start thinking as you do, this hobby will be finished.
Doug Winter says that he knowns of only 3 to 5 pieces that actually grade Mint State, and you had one of the best examples.
Where did I say I sold it because CAC didn't sticker it???? I said why I bought it even though it did not sticker. It was one of the coins I sold through Doug as the KY Collection of about 20 liberty quarter eagles (all the others were CAC). Not sure why you think I sold it since it was non cac.
My reading comprehension is clearly getting worse.
I never understood that Gazes sold the CAC had anything to do with CAC. ?
I thought that he was keeping with the thread that the coin in the original grade/holder did not pass CAC.
He only mentioned cAC and the new grade as a follow up to what happened to the coin after he sold it.
Like I said, Nobody will accuse me of having a high reading comprehension.
Okay, enlighten me. Why did you sell the coin, @Gazes?
Not pq enough; "abrasions"; a "B-"; PVC, which usually involves subsequent conservation with a lot more time and expense. And then more postage/insurance and another cac submission which may be thumbs down again.
Here is an interesting example of cac's judgment:
CAC said it was puttied. So I sent it to PCGS under their warranty/guarantee, 4 month wait for Presidential review and conservation. The coin comes back, send it to CAC again; this time they said it had been "tooled"; he said it should never be in a straight graded holder! I send it back to PCGS under their warranty with CAC's comments. That takes another 3-4 months, they admit it has the issue give me two choices, I get the coin back in a problem holder. I send it in to NGC raw, they call it MS63 like PCGS did, did not see the supposed "tooling" as a problem.
So this thread is about coins you love that did not pass CAC. I tried to post a coin I once owned that did not pass CAC. I tried to put information about the coin that I thought others would find helpful (i.e. color, condition, link to a pic, census info). I never said anything that should cause anyone to think I sold it because it was non cac. If fact, it was the opposite---I said why I bought it regardless of CAC. You commented mistakenly on my motive and called it sad. Instead of admitting you read something into it that was not there, you have doubled down and ask why I sold it. This thread has nothing to do with decisions about selling coins and quite frankly its none of your business why I sold it. If you are interested in the 20 or so coins I sold along with it, Doug wrote a nice article on the Kentucky collection about my coins that he sold.