@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
How ironic coming from the biggest PCGS only fan boy in the world.
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Is it not fun for you because some of your coins would...or did not sticker ? just curious but it Kind of sounds like it .
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
What do you think is conducive to the growth of the hobby?
Also who do you think decides who has control of the US coin market ?
I will tell you what I think ......
I had a pretty nice collection of US coins which I sold in its entirety in the fall of 2016.....all were in slabs. Some were rejected by CAC and some were stickered . Some coins i made some money on and some I lost money.
But I had sure had alot of fun collecting them over the years . sure learned alot.
Now I focus on buying foreign coins. Foreign coins you can still really still buy some nice ones raw !
Sure have learned alot
Probably the same thing will happen when I am ready to sell .
As far as CAC and JA is concerned I say more power to him.
Same with David Hall, Steve Ivy, Mark Salzberg and others who found a niche in the coin business and built an empire from working hard .
Good for them !
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
How ironic coming from the biggest PCGS only fan boy in the world.
I have bought coins in all holders and also raw. Yes, I am a fan of PCGS and like to get all my coins in their holders for several reasons one of which so that I can put them in the Registry.
@coinkat said:
It seems there should be at least some fundamental understanding as to what is truly CAC submission worthy. Several generic coins in various series seem to go to CAC even though the spread between grades really does not warrant such a review. Even nice original high end circulated coins really don't need a sticker. The original look should be the narrative ... Not a sticker.
Maybe JA should consider offering some guidance as to submission worthy coins and those that just simply do not require an added layer in an effort to reduce submissions. There are simply millions of coins graded by PCGS and NGC that just do not need the service. How many MS 65 1880-s Morgans does JA really need to look at? I would suggest zero. How many has he looked at? I suspect it could be significant... Perhaps 8-10% of the total graded population? So what is the real benefit? Is it for grading confirmation or marketing?
It's likely as simple as submitters hoping for the gold bean. Why do people continue to submit common BU m Morgans to PCGS by the truckload?
@coinkat said:
It seems there should be at least some fundamental understanding as to what is truly CAC submission worthy. Several generic coins in various series seem to go to CAC even though the spread between grades really does not warrant such a review. Even nice original high end circulated coins really don't need a sticker. The original look should be the narrative ... Not a sticker.
Maybe JA should consider offering some guidance as to submission worthy coins and those that just simply do not require an added layer in an effort to reduce submissions. There are simply millions of coins graded by PCGS and NGC that just do not need the service. How many MS 65 1880-s Morgans does JA really need to look at? I would suggest zero. How many has he looked at? I suspect it could be significant... Perhaps 8-10% of the total graded population? So what is the real benefit? Is it for grading confirmation or marketing?
It's likely as simple as submitters hoping for the gold bean. Why do people continue to submit common BU m Morgans to PCGS by the truckload?
My guess is that many submitters of such coins are largely unaware of the minimal extra value of a stickered example. Ditto for lots of other lower value pieces.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
How ironic coming from the biggest PCGS only fan boy in the world.
I have bought coins in all holders and also raw. Yes, I am a fan of PCGS and like to get all my coins in their holders for several reasons one of which so that I can put them in the Registry.
Certainly a valid reason but you and others have for years offered derogatory comments about other TPG's while preaching the PCGS only mantra, you know you have. Hence the irony.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
It is kinda fun to watch all this from the sidelines ......
I am really glad not having to have to deal with any of this.
That said, superior eye appeal is paramount for any coin that I deal with.
Whenever John gets a roll of stickers that are printed wrong he will start an error service don’t you worry . CCA or ACC are my best guess
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Everyone,
Each time I buy a coin, I have to a make a judgement based on my experience, although I have been doing this for 15 years, I have a smidgeon of experience compared to Bill Jones, Tom Bush, Capn' Henway, and Mark Feld to name a few. That means the chances of me nailing it every time is not good. Sure give me 10 high resolution/quality images of the same coin in a few different grades, that were all graded at the same time and therefore with consistency, and I can do pretty good.
But take a single coin without that context, and it is much much harder. In fact, buying online, is a complete and total crap shoot. I can't tell you how many times I have been burned buying a coin on line that arrives and has surface problems that the images did not show. So for me, CAC means that somebody much better than me at grading, that cares about surface quality, has seen and approved the coin. Simple as that, less times burned buying CAC.
I have to say that Bill has given me outstanding advice on particular coins at shows that kept be from buying things with surface problems in areas where he is far more experienced than me. But I don't have him, or Tom, or anyone else with me each time I see something that I might want to buy, and even if I could get their opinion from online images, it don't make for anything unless you see the coin in hand. I would like to say I have the experience to make the right choice every time, but I don't. Hence, CAC has a valuable role to play in my collecting because most of the time CAC gets it right.
I was a nay sayer a decade ago, and fully agreed with Bill. Now I respectfully don't fully agree and see where CAC's role is for helping me to collect and learning about surface quality and why that matters.
@CaptHenway said:
Buy the coin, not the plastic, the sticker, the hype or the sizzle,
Well, unless you buy raw, you are always paying for the plastic and sticker. The coin price you WILL pay factors in all the sizzle. You won't be able to buy a CaC coin (generally) for less than a non-CAC because the dealer won't price them the same and/or the auction bidders will bid one higher than the other.
Being as you are a scientist with 15 years of collecting that surprises me! Most folks I know...including myself that have a science oriented perspective are very observative!
@spacehayduke said:
Everyone,
Each time I buy a coin, I have to a make a judgement based on my experience, although I have been doing this for 15 years, I have a smidgeon of experience compared to Bill Jones, Tom Bush, Capn' Henway, and Mark Feld to name a few. That means the chances of me nailing it every time is not good. Sure give me 10 high resolution/quality images of the same coin in a few different grades, that were all graded at the same time and therefore with consistency, and I can do pretty good.
But take a single coin without that context, and it is much much harder. In fact, buying online, is a complete and total crap shoot. I can't tell you how many times I have been burned buying a coin on line that arrives and has surface problems that the images did not show. So for me, CAC means that somebody much better than me at grading, that cares about surface quality, has seen and approved the coin. Simple as that, less times burned buying CAC.
I have to say that Bill has given me outstanding advice on particular coins at shows that kept be from buying things with surface problems in areas where he is far more experienced than me. But I don't have him, or Tom, or anyone else with me each time I see something that I might want to buy, and even if I could get their opinion from online images, it don't make for anything unless you see the coin in hand. I would like to say I have the experience to make the right choice every time, but I don't. Hence, CAC has a valuable role to play in my collecting because most of the time CAC gets it right.
I was a nay sayer a decade ago, and fully agreed with Bill. Now I respectfully don't fully agree and see where CAC's role is for helping me to collect and learning about surface quality and why that matters.
@CaptHenway said:
Buy the coin, not the plastic, the sticker, the hype or the sizzle,
Well, unless you buy raw, you are always paying for the plastic and sticker. The coin price you WILL pay factors in all the sizzle. You won't be able to buy a CaC coin (generally) for less than a non-CAC because the dealer won't price them the same and/or the auction bidders will bid one higher than the other.
We are all plastic and CaC buyers now.
Maybe there are many coins that not only do not need CAC ...maybe these coins don't need PCGS and NGC and ANACS.
Maybe collect raw coins and be happy.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
How ironic coming from the biggest PCGS only fan boy in the world.
I have bought coins in all holders and also raw. Yes, I am a fan of PCGS and like to get all my coins in their holders for several reasons one of which so that I can put them in the Registry.
Certainly a valid reason but you and others have for years offered derogatory comments about other TPG's while preaching the PCGS only mantra, you know you have. Hence the irony.
It's never been a secret that I want my coins to end up in PCGS holders. I have explained why many times.
Maybe there are many coins that not only do not need CAC ...maybe these coins don't need PCGS and NGC and ANACS.
Maybe collect raw coins and be happy.
No coin needs PCGS, NGC or ANACS, It is the collectors who need the grading services so that the buying/selling of the coins can be transacted with more transparency.
Otherwise, we would all be buying cleaned AU sliders as Choice Gem BU.
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
I TOTALLY agree with this statement.
Of course, no one does have that much control. The “market” decides for itself.
The market does not operate in a vacuum and is subject to manipulation. Market making is a form of market manipulation and essentially setting a price floor regardless of any meaningful difference in quality. That's why there are so few true no reserve auctions outside of large auctions for very high end items. Deciding which coins get special status even in instances where only marginal differences in quality may exist is a very awesome power.
@Gazes said:
I can understand someone not interested in CAC or someone requiring CAC. What I dont understand is how CAC could ruin the hobby for anyone?
If you bought most of your coins pre-CAC, your coins stickered, and then you sold off the items at an inflated rate CAC is your best friend. As a buyer, CAC has just added several percent to your purchase price. Yes solid coins always did better, but the CAC premium is not always justified by the sometimes increased quality IMHO. Before CAC, people would hire experts (like Mark Feld who cameoed as a CAC grader) to lot view for them for a couple of percent at most . That expert could advise them as to the quality and value of the coin rather than an expert opining of whether it is merely solid for the label grade. Therein lies a major distinction. CAC coins cost a lot more. For the benefit of those holding them, let's hope it stays that way in a couple decades when many of you retire.
So yes, when CAC drives coins up the price to insane levels (as can happen on high end, rare items), it can ruin the hobby or at least manipulate prices to levels that might be riskier making it less desirable to pursue some coins.
P.S. The big winners here are the large dealers that play the non-traditional crack out game: Bad mouth and drive down the prices for other coins, promote CAC only, buy a marginal for the grade coin (especially NGC at one point up) and downgrade, sticker it, flip for a profit, rinse and repeat.
@OwenSeymour said:
It will never cease to amaze me how the mere mention of CAC will inevitably lead to drawn out heated discussions. Talk about beating a dead horse.
Oh the horse isn't just dead, it was dead many years ago. It has long since decomposed to the point that only a bit of dust remains. We need to start being more careful as each time we exhume it to flagellate it again and again we lose a bit more. Soon, there may not even be enough dust to keep going. Until then, we'll rehash this every few hours with a new thread that somehow drags on to 200 posts, ends in name-calling, hair-pulling, and the occasional self-immolation or forcible deportation.
@Justacommeman said:
I see both on the bourse. No CAC or all CAC. I can tell who who’s coins generally look a lot better
m
Let's examine this comment as it seems typical for the dozen or so individuals who chime in on every cac thread and rush to their defense whether they be cac groupies/dealers promoting their cac exclusive inventories/those financially vested/etc. I point to this specific remark because it sounds very similar to the pcgs promotional ads "The Best Coins Always End Up in PCGS Holders" which is nothing more than sales rhetoric to induce collectors to crossover their coins in another competing firms holders, and also clearly a self-fulfilling prophecy much like the cac jiberish that circulates here.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Justacommeman said:
I see both on the bourse. No CAC or all CAC. I can tell who who’s coins generally look a lot better
m
Let's examine this comment as it seems typical for the dozen or so individuals who chime in on every cac thread and rush to their defense whether they be cac groupies/dealers promoting their cac exclusive inventories/those financially vested/etc. I point to this specific remark because it sounds very similar to the pcgs promotional ads "The Best Coins Always End Up in PCGS Holders" which is nothing more than sales rhetoric to induce collectors to crossover their coins in another competing firms holders, and also clearly a self-fulfilling prophecy much like the cac jiberish that circulates here.
But they do for the most part so Im not sure of your point. It is what it is.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A wise man once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
"Many of the same concerns presented by the same people. Use CAC services if you wish, don't if you wish, but why do the same people insist on bashing CAC over and over? Thankfully, despite their repeated attempts they have been unsuccessful because the facts do not support their allegations and fears.
Perhaps they believe that if CAC fails they will be able to get more money for there coins. In addition, most seem to believe that they are as good as or better graders than JA. This is possible, BUT the probability is low.
@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get
Do you have similar concerns about PCGS coins and the fact that, often, non-PCGS “are looked upon as inferior”? If not, why not?
I'm not Jon/Dimeman, but yes. I'm a contrarian and weirdo that will buy any coin in any holder or raw if I can ethically flip it for a profit.
The real driver of 90% of criticism in CAC threads really isn't CAC itself, but a handful of vocal groupies, many of them shareholders or former shareholders with an obvious interest in CAC's financial success, that bash the rest of the market with gross hyperbole and unqualified dogmatic declarations of "fact." It is unclear whether it is done as self promotion or perhaps as a way to buy other coins cheaper, all in my opinion of course. Most of the animus that results is really a reaction to that type of behavior. That is where the real bashing occurs.
I don't think most would disagree that higher quality coins should sell for more money and that the price should be commensurate with the quality. In many cases that might very well be a stickered coin, but it might not. I can't believe those two statements are so controversial.
@specialist said:
I'm sure I will be sensored, but be glad CAC exists.
Yes, at your market level CAC is very important.
The thing that seems to be missing from this, and most CAC threads, is that there is not just one coin market.
At the level where many of the posters here ply the market CAC is very important, but at many of the lower levels, yes it may be widgets or dreck to you, CAC is far less important.
The dealer in question may have a couple hundred clients who spend $100 per coin on a regular basis but never spend $1000 per coin. He can sell a thousand $100 coins in less time than one $1000 coin, so why bother with sending coins to CAC?
Personal note:
I have bought one CAC coin, a PCGS 66FB 194X green beaned dime from an ebay dealer for $18 that now resides in a Dansco.
If we assume the dealer bought the coin raw, sent it to PCGS then CAC paid the shipping and ebay costs and shipping to me, how much money did the bean add to his coffers?
@BillJones said:
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like. > @MasonG said:
@BillJones said:
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
His control over the U.S. coin market is based on people voluntarily valuing his opinion. How would you propose to get people to stop trusting him?
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect. No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all. JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so. It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
The problem is on one hand you are saying it would be good if CAC "supporters" could stick to saying CAC is great and not commenting on non CAC coins (which I would say 98% do exactly that). But on the other hand you said earlier "if there is a large number of collectors....who won't buy a coin without a sticker...it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby." In other words, you appear to be telling others what to do. I am fine with anyone buying as many non cac coins as they want. Why would I care? On the other hand, it seems you are telling others that they shouldn't buy primarily CAC because we are hurting our hobby. How about NON CAC supporters stick to saying my non cac coins are great and leave off that CAC is destroying the hobby?
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
Clearly the operative word in this statement is SOME. Many, many collectors and dealers I know struggle with grading raw coins and detecting problem coins. They do 'fine' when commenting on slabbed coins and remarkably, the only complaints seem to be when the TPGs grade coins 'wrong' ... or in other words, grade them lower than the owner wants.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
Clearly the operative word in this statement is SOME. Many, many collectors and dealers I know struggle with grading raw coins and detecting problem coins. They do 'fine' when commenting on slabbed coins and remarkably, the only complaints seem to be when the TPGs grade coins 'wrong' ... or in other words, grade them lower than the owner wants.
It's almost like you haven't read a large number of the threads here in recent years (or maybe the threads were deleted before you noticed). There are a number of threads here complaining about coins that are graded optimistically. It goes both ways.
The CAC market (as I see it) comes into play mainly for big ticket material where there is substantial spread between the CAC and non CAC bid in the sheet. The major points from JA podcast - CAC stickers A or B coins (not C) and he believes there is opportunity in acquiring / stickering material which will CAC where the spread between the two (CDN bid from my perspective) is substantial (material enough play the game).
I am sure some many non dealer players submit coins where where the sticker does not really justify the additional cost which is lost if not sticker. It’s part of their hobby experience and curiosity how JA seizes up their coins. I don’t see many dealers spending money on CAC for those coins. There is no reason (incentive) why they should, especially if they can grade. For material I think it’s worth playing the game sure deal me in.
In addition it takes a buyer who will pay the money sell CAC coin. My success selling CAC coins at CAC level mixed will defer reason to market factors. Online has done better than shows.
@ErrorsOnCoins said:
It is kinda fun to watch all this from the sidelines ......
I am really glad not having to have to deal with any of this.
That said, superior eye appeal is paramount for any coin that I deal with.
Error coins are great to collect because the grading does not matter, just the general condition.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Here’s a very simple challenge. The next time you’re at a major show look at all of the lots in one series. IMHO, most objective people will conclude that the PCGS coins in the same grade look nicer than the NGC coins, and that the CAC coins look nicer than the non-CAC coins. Yes there are exceptions and the TPG’s aren’t perfect nor is CAC, but in general JA gets it right most of the time.
<<< Out of the thousands and thousands of coins CAC has stickered, it is rare that the complaint is they "messed up." Of course there will always be coins that stickered and shouldn't have or coins didn't sticker but should have but CAC gets it right the overwhelming amount of the time. >>>
WIld speculation. You cannot possibly make that statement with even a shred of certainty, and especially so considering how many coins get resubmitted with a different grade / holder the second or third time around.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Luxor said:
<<< Out of the thousands and thousands of coins CAC has stickered, it is rare that the complaint is they "messed up." Of course there will always be coins that stickered and shouldn't have or coins didn't sticker but should have but CAC gets it right the overwhelming amount of the time. >>>
WIld speculation. You cannot possibly make that statement with even a shred of certainty, and especially so considering how many coins get resubmitted with a different grade / holder the second or third time around.
He didn't say it's rare that they messed up - he said it's rare that the complaint is that they messed up. If he's talked to a sufficiently large number of submitters, sellers and buyers on that subject, his comments are likely on point and not just "wild speculation'.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@coinkat said:
It seems there should be at least some fundamental understanding as to what is truly CAC submission worthy. Several generic coins in various series seem to go to CAC even though the spread between grades really does not warrant such a review. Even nice original high end circulated coins really don't need a sticker. The original look should be the narrative ... Not a sticker.
Maybe JA should consider offering some guidance as to submission worthy coins and those that just simply do not require an added layer in an effort to reduce submissions. There are simply millions of coins graded by PCGS and NGC that just do not need the service. How many MS 65 1880-s Morgans does JA really need to look at? I would suggest zero. How many has he looked at? I suspect it could be significant... Perhaps 8-10% of the total graded population? So what is the real benefit? Is it for grading confirmation or marketing?
It's likely as simple as submitters hoping for the gold bean. Why do people continue to submit common BU m Morgans to PCGS by the truckload?
My guess is that many submitters of such coins are largely unaware of the minimal extra value of a stickered example. Ditto for lots of other lower value pieces.
As a collector, it costs a relatively significant amount of money to get a raw coin slabbed and stickered. Using a 'high volume' PCGS dealer, a coin may cost $20 (including all fees) to slab at PCGS and then about $17 for CAC.> @cameonut2011 said:
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
Clearly the operative word in this statement is SOME. Many, many collectors and dealers I know struggle with grading raw coins and detecting problem coins. They do 'fine' when commenting on slabbed coins and remarkably, the only complaints seem to be when the TPGs grade coins 'wrong' ... or in other words, grade them lower than the owner wants.
It's almost like you haven't read a large number of the threads here in recent years (or maybe the threads were deleted before you noticed). There are a number of threads here complaining about coins that are graded optimistically. It goes both ways.
Well ... I don't recall a lot of threads where the owners of the coins complained about optimistic grading of their coins.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
But (after some more thought) to answer OP question - there is no pressing reason he should have CAC. Does he even have the kind of big ticket material where CAC bid a lot higher. This wb an additional expense (huge) where a pct of them would fail. To justify this he will need sell the stickerd coins for more at least markup based on the higher CAC bid. Hopefully this markup will cover the ones which cost money send in but failed. To sell them he needs buyers pay the money - in this market? Unless CAC bids going crazy in the sheet don’t think so.
Further more what has become apparent yes many on the bourse will ask my price on CAC coins but don’t want pay the money nor understand the is an entirely separate pricing class.
Is he leaving money on the table for treasure hunters CAC then get big money? Don’t know. Frankly unless a really material pricing upgrade me keep my money. Perhaps he’s smarter than people think.
A client wants a nice Spanish Trail in PCGS 66. A CAC one is about 24pct higher (sheet). He says it would really need PQ pizzaz for him acquire. I am on lookout (GC etc.) for one but would he buy it (CAC one).
@amwldcoin said:
Being as you are a scientist with 15 years of collecting that surprises me! Most folks I know...including myself that have a science oriented perspective are very observative!
@spacehayduke said:
Everyone,
Each time I buy a coin, I have to a make a judgement based on my experience, although I have been doing this for 15 years, I have a smidgeon of experience compared to Bill Jones, Tom Bush, Capn' Henway, and Mark Feld to name a few. That means the chances of me nailing it every time is not good. Sure give me 10 high resolution/quality images of the same coin in a few different grades, that were all graded at the same time and therefore with consistency, and I can do pretty good.
But take a single coin without that context, and it is much much harder. In fact, buying online, is a complete and total crap shoot. I can't tell you how many times I have been burned buying a coin on line that arrives and has surface problems that the images did not show. So for me, CAC means that somebody much better than me at grading, that cares about surface quality, has seen and approved the coin. Simple as that, less times burned buying CAC.
I have to say that Bill has given me outstanding advice on particular coins at shows that kept be from buying things with surface problems in areas where he is far more experienced than me. But I don't have him, or Tom, or anyone else with me each time I see something that I might want to buy, and even if I could get their opinion from online images, it don't make for anything unless you see the coin in hand. I would like to say I have the experience to make the right choice every time, but I don't. Hence, CAC has a valuable role to play in my collecting because most of the time CAC gets it right.
I was a nay sayer a decade ago, and fully agreed with Bill. Now I respectfully don't fully agree and see where CAC's role is for helping me to collect and learning about surface quality and why that matters.
Best, SH
Agree, but JA, Bill Jones, you, are better than me at this so I prefer the help from y'all.
There is a lot to be learned from John Albanese and I appreciate and respect that but he does not dictate all of my buying choices.
I think it’s a shame that you would even feel any need or desire to state that. As long as you think for yourself, no one other than you, dictates any of your buying choices.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, I meant no disrespect. I truly value his opinion and he is a very knowledgeable and likeable guy. I'd love to talk to him, sometime, about my coins....It would probably be the most valuable time that I ever spent. I only meant that I'm not averse to purchasing a coin that I like just because it hasn't been stickered.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
@Walkerfan said:
Mark, I meant no disrespect. I truly value his opinion and he is a very knowledgeable and likeable guy. I'd love to talk to him, sometime, about my coins....It would probably be the most valuable time that I ever spent. I only meant that I'm not averse to purchasing a coin that I like just because it hasn't been stickered.
Your post didn’t strike me as disrespectful. It just seemed obvious that neither he nor anyone else would dictate your buying decisions. And I’m sorry if things are such that you felt any need to say it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
How ironic coming from the biggest PCGS only fan boy in the world.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Is it not fun for you because some of your coins would...or did not sticker ? just curious but it Kind of sounds like it .
What do you think is conducive to the growth of the hobby?
Also who do you think decides who has control of the US coin market ?
I will tell you what I think ......
I had a pretty nice collection of US coins which I sold in its entirety in the fall of 2016.....all were in slabs. Some were rejected by CAC and some were stickered . Some coins i made some money on and some I lost money.
But I had sure had alot of fun collecting them over the years .
sure learned alot.
Now I focus on buying foreign coins. Foreign coins you can still really still buy some nice ones raw !
Sure have learned alot
Probably the same thing will happen when I am ready to sell .
As far as CAC and JA is concerned I say more power to him.
Same with David Hall, Steve Ivy, Mark Salzberg and others who found a niche in the coin business and built an empire from working hard .
Good for them !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I can understand someone not interested in CAC or someone requiring CAC. What I dont understand is how CAC could ruin the hobby for anyone?
I have bought coins in all holders and also raw. Yes, I am a fan of PCGS and like to get all my coins in their holders for several reasons one of which so that I can put them in the Registry.
It's likely as simple as submitters hoping for the gold bean. Why do people continue to submit common BU m Morgans to PCGS by the truckload?
My guess is that many submitters of such coins are largely unaware of the minimal extra value of a stickered example. Ditto for lots of other lower value pieces.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Certainly a valid reason but you and others have for years offered derogatory comments about other TPG's while preaching the PCGS only mantra, you know you have. Hence the irony.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It is kinda fun to watch all this from the sidelines ......
I am really glad not having to have to deal with any of this.
That said, superior eye appeal is paramount for any coin that I deal with.
Whenever John gets a roll of stickers that are printed wrong he will start an error service don’t you worry . CCA or ACC are my best guess
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Everyone,
Each time I buy a coin, I have to a make a judgement based on my experience, although I have been doing this for 15 years, I have a smidgeon of experience compared to Bill Jones, Tom Bush, Capn' Henway, and Mark Feld to name a few. That means the chances of me nailing it every time is not good. Sure give me 10 high resolution/quality images of the same coin in a few different grades, that were all graded at the same time and therefore with consistency, and I can do pretty good.
But take a single coin without that context, and it is much much harder. In fact, buying online, is a complete and total crap shoot. I can't tell you how many times I have been burned buying a coin on line that arrives and has surface problems that the images did not show. So for me, CAC means that somebody much better than me at grading, that cares about surface quality, has seen and approved the coin. Simple as that, less times burned buying CAC.
I have to say that Bill has given me outstanding advice on particular coins at shows that kept be from buying things with surface problems in areas where he is far more experienced than me. But I don't have him, or Tom, or anyone else with me each time I see something that I might want to buy, and even if I could get their opinion from online images, it don't make for anything unless you see the coin in hand. I would like to say I have the experience to make the right choice every time, but I don't. Hence, CAC has a valuable role to play in my collecting because most of the time CAC gets it right.
I was a nay sayer a decade ago, and fully agreed with Bill. Now I respectfully don't fully agree and see where CAC's role is for helping me to collect and learning about surface quality and why that matters.
Best, SH
Not if you plan to promptly crack it out and put it into an album.
You still had your hand held when you bought the coin. It’s just that you decided to let go, afterwards.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well, unless you buy raw, you are always paying for the plastic and sticker. The coin price you WILL pay factors in all the sizzle. You won't be able to buy a CaC coin (generally) for less than a non-CAC because the dealer won't price them the same and/or the auction bidders will bid one higher than the other.
We are all plastic and CaC buyers now.
Being as you are a scientist with 15 years of collecting that surprises me! Most folks I know...including myself that have a science oriented perspective are very observative!
Maybe there are many coins that not only do not need CAC ...maybe these coins don't need PCGS and NGC and ANACS.
Maybe collect raw coins and be happy.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
With regards to purchasing raw US coins :
@BillJones said:
I find that comment to be curious. Why is the upside limited now versus when you were a dealer?
Are you inferring that buying coins in TPG holders offers more upside than buying raw
coins ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Maybe he simply sold them as fast as he got them and never had any for inventory. Maybe they just flew out of his cases.
It's never been a secret that I want my coins to end up in PCGS holders. I have explained why many times.
I see no Irony.
Other people want their coins to end up with CAC stickers. Why should that be a concern?
To each his own.
It will never cease to amaze me how the mere mention of CAC will inevitably lead to drawn out heated discussions. Talk about beating a dead horse.
No coin needs PCGS, NGC or ANACS, It is the collectors who need the grading services so that the buying/selling of the coins can be transacted with more transparency.
Otherwise, we would all be buying cleaned AU sliders as Choice Gem BU.
It isn't...except when people ponder why others are not as concerned with CAC the way that they are.
The market does not operate in a vacuum and is subject to manipulation. Market making is a form of market manipulation and essentially setting a price floor regardless of any meaningful difference in quality. That's why there are so few true no reserve auctions outside of large auctions for very high end items. Deciding which coins get special status even in instances where only marginal differences in quality may exist is a very awesome power.
If you bought most of your coins pre-CAC, your coins stickered, and then you sold off the items at an inflated rate CAC is your best friend. As a buyer, CAC has just added several percent to your purchase price. Yes solid coins always did better, but the CAC premium is not always justified by the sometimes increased quality IMHO. Before CAC, people would hire experts (like Mark Feld who cameoed as a CAC grader) to lot view for them for a couple of percent at most . That expert could advise them as to the quality and value of the coin rather than an expert opining of whether it is merely solid for the label grade. Therein lies a major distinction. CAC coins cost a lot more. For the benefit of those holding them, let's hope it stays that way in a couple decades when many of you retire.
So yes, when CAC drives coins up the price to insane levels (as can happen on high end, rare items), it can ruin the hobby or at least manipulate prices to levels that might be riskier making it less desirable to pursue some coins.
P.S. The big winners here are the large dealers that play the non-traditional crack out game: Bad mouth and drive down the prices for other coins, promote CAC only, buy a marginal for the grade coin (especially NGC at one point up) and downgrade, sticker it, flip for a profit, rinse and repeat.
Oh the horse isn't just dead, it was dead many years ago. It has long since decomposed to the point that only a bit of dust remains. We need to start being more careful as each time we exhume it to flagellate it again and again we lose a bit more. Soon, there may not even be enough dust to keep going. Until then, we'll rehash this every few hours with a new thread that somehow drags on to 200 posts, ends in name-calling, hair-pulling, and the occasional self-immolation or forcible deportation.
Most don't. The RWB Breen comparison comment sticks out in your mind because it was so recent and extreme.
Let's examine this comment as it seems typical for the dozen or so individuals who chime in on every cac thread and rush to their defense whether they be cac groupies/dealers promoting their cac exclusive inventories/those financially vested/etc. I point to this specific remark because it sounds very similar to the pcgs promotional ads "The Best Coins Always End Up in PCGS Holders" which is nothing more than sales rhetoric to induce collectors to crossover their coins in another competing firms holders, and also clearly a self-fulfilling prophecy much like the cac jiberish that circulates here.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
But they do for the most part so Im not sure of your point. It is what it is.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A wise man once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
"Many of the same concerns presented by the same people. Use CAC services if you wish, don't if you wish, but why do the same people insist on bashing CAC over and over? Thankfully, despite their repeated attempts they have been unsuccessful because the facts do not support their allegations and fears.
Perhaps they believe that if CAC fails they will be able to get more money for there coins. In addition, most seem to believe that they are as good as or better graders than JA. This is possible, BUT the probability is low.
I'm not Jon/Dimeman, but yes. I'm a contrarian and weirdo that will buy any coin in any holder or raw if I can ethically flip it for a profit.
The real driver of 90% of criticism in CAC threads really isn't CAC itself, but a handful of vocal groupies, many of them shareholders or former shareholders with an obvious interest in CAC's financial success, that bash the rest of the market with gross hyperbole and unqualified dogmatic declarations of "fact." It is unclear whether it is done as self promotion or perhaps as a way to buy other coins cheaper, all in my opinion of course. Most of the animus that results is really a reaction to that type of behavior. That is where the real bashing occurs.
I don't think most would disagree that higher quality coins should sell for more money and that the price should be commensurate with the quality. In many cases that might very well be a stickered coin, but it might not. I can't believe those two statements are so controversial.
Yes, at your market level CAC is very important.
The thing that seems to be missing from this, and most CAC threads, is that there is not just one coin market.
At the level where many of the posters here ply the market CAC is very important, but at many of the lower levels, yes it may be widgets or dreck to you, CAC is far less important.
The dealer in question may have a couple hundred clients who spend $100 per coin on a regular basis but never spend $1000 per coin. He can sell a thousand $100 coins in less time than one $1000 coin, so why bother with sending coins to CAC?
Personal note:
I have bought one CAC coin, a PCGS 66FB 194X green beaned dime from an ebay dealer for $18 that now resides in a Dansco.
If we assume the dealer bought the coin raw, sent it to PCGS then CAC paid the shipping and ebay costs and shipping to me, how much money did the bean add to his coffers?
The problem is on one hand you are saying it would be good if CAC "supporters" could stick to saying CAC is great and not commenting on non CAC coins (which I would say 98% do exactly that). But on the other hand you said earlier "if there is a large number of collectors....who won't buy a coin without a sticker...it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby." In other words, you appear to be telling others what to do. I am fine with anyone buying as many non cac coins as they want. Why would I care? On the other hand, it seems you are telling others that they shouldn't buy primarily CAC because we are hurting our hobby. How about NON CAC supporters stick to saying my non cac coins are great and leave off that CAC is destroying the hobby?
Clearly the operative word in this statement is SOME. Many, many collectors and dealers I know struggle with grading raw coins and detecting problem coins. They do 'fine' when commenting on slabbed coins and remarkably, the only complaints seem to be when the TPGs grade coins 'wrong' ... or in other words, grade them lower than the owner wants.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
It's almost like you haven't read a large number of the threads here in recent years (or maybe the threads were deleted before you noticed). There are a number of threads here complaining about coins that are graded optimistically. It goes both ways.
The CAC market (as I see it) comes into play mainly for big ticket material where there is substantial spread between the CAC and non CAC bid in the sheet. The major points from JA podcast - CAC stickers A or B coins (not C) and he believes there is opportunity in acquiring / stickering material which will CAC where the spread between the two (CDN bid from my perspective) is substantial (material enough play the game).
I am sure some many non dealer players submit coins where where the sticker does not really justify the additional cost which is lost if not sticker. It’s part of their hobby experience and curiosity how JA seizes up their coins. I don’t see many dealers spending money on CAC for those coins. There is no reason (incentive) why they should, especially if they can grade. For material I think it’s worth playing the game sure deal me in.
In addition it takes a buyer who will pay the money sell CAC coin. My success selling CAC coins at CAC level mixed will defer reason to market factors. Online has done better than shows.
Error coins are great to collect because the grading does not matter, just the general condition.
Here’s a very simple challenge. The next time you’re at a major show look at all of the lots in one series. IMHO, most objective people will conclude that the PCGS coins in the same grade look nicer than the NGC coins, and that the CAC coins look nicer than the non-CAC coins. Yes there are exceptions and the TPG’s aren’t perfect nor is CAC, but in general JA gets it right most of the time.
<<< Out of the thousands and thousands of coins CAC has stickered, it is rare that the complaint is they "messed up." Of course there will always be coins that stickered and shouldn't have or coins didn't sticker but should have but CAC gets it right the overwhelming amount of the time. >>>
WIld speculation. You cannot possibly make that statement with even a shred of certainty, and especially so considering how many coins get resubmitted with a different grade / holder the second or third time around.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
He didn't say it's rare that they messed up - he said it's rare that the complaint is that they messed up. If he's talked to a sufficiently large number of submitters, sellers and buyers on that subject, his comments are likely on point and not just "wild speculation'.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Raw coins are looked at as inferior as well by
As a collector, it costs a relatively significant amount of money to get a raw coin slabbed and stickered. Using a 'high volume' PCGS dealer, a coin may cost $20 (including all fees) to slab at PCGS and then about $17 for CAC.> @cameonut2011 said:
Well ... I don't recall a lot of threads where the owners of the coins complained about optimistic grading of their coins.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
But (after some more thought) to answer OP question - there is no pressing reason he should have CAC. Does he even have the kind of big ticket material where CAC bid a lot higher. This wb an additional expense (huge) where a pct of them would fail. To justify this he will need sell the stickerd coins for more at least markup based on the higher CAC bid. Hopefully this markup will cover the ones which cost money send in but failed. To sell them he needs buyers pay the money - in this market? Unless CAC bids going crazy in the sheet don’t think so.
Further more what has become apparent yes many on the bourse will ask my price on CAC coins but don’t want pay the money nor understand the is an entirely separate pricing class.
Is he leaving money on the table for treasure hunters CAC then get big money? Don’t know. Frankly unless a really material pricing upgrade me keep my money. Perhaps he’s smarter than people think.
A client wants a nice Spanish Trail in PCGS 66. A CAC one is about 24pct higher (sheet). He says it would really need PQ pizzaz for him acquire. I am on lookout (GC etc.) for one but would he buy it (CAC one).
Agree, but JA, Bill Jones, you, are better than me at this so I prefer the help from y'all.
Best, SH
There is a lot to be learned from John Albanese and I appreciate and respect that but he does not dictate all of my buying choices.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I think it’s a shame that you would even feel any need or desire to state that. As long as you think for yourself, no one other than you, dictates any of your buying choices.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, I meant no disrespect. I truly value his opinion and he is a very knowledgeable and likeable guy. I'd love to talk to him, sometime, about my coins....It would probably be the most valuable time that I ever spent. I only meant that I'm not averse to purchasing a coin that I like just because it hasn't been stickered.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Your post didn’t strike me as disrespectful. It just seemed obvious that neither he nor anyone else would dictate your buying decisions. And I’m sorry if things are such that you felt any need to say it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.