1952 Bowman Stan Musial #196 PSA Gem Mint 10
Comments
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Here @doubledragon I'll sum it up if you don't want to read the thread yourself
@UFFDAH posts an awesome new pickup
20 or so people are some combination drooling/congratulating
@UFFDAH says thanks and mentions Brent's name
then starts the sky is falling posts because every vintage 10 must be altered
@doubledragon agrees with one before he knows what it going on
@krisd3279 sums it up for @doubledragonKris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
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@UFFDAH just to be clear my WOW was the drooling/congratulating type. Well done!!
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
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Altered to the tune of a $25K gain. Not to mention a collector paying for what he thought was a "10", and around a year later owning an "A" instead. He deserves a full refund, hope he gets it. I'm not the one with "authenticator" in my business name or title, this is pretty egregious. For me, it's damning that someone would take what was already a PSA 9, see more $$$, and literally lead a buyer into higher bids. Indefensible and criminal on PWCC's part. Major, major fail.
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@krisd3279 said:
Here @doubledragon I'll sum it up if you don't want to read the thread yourself@UFFDAH posts an awesome new pickup
20 or so people are some combination drooling/congratulating
@UFFDAH says thanks and mentions Brent's name
then starts the sky is falling posts because every vintage 10 must be altered
@doubledragon agrees with one before he knows what it going on
@krisd3279 sums it up for @doubledragonA simple yes or no would have been ok.
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@doubledragon said:
Why is everybody so upset about this card? Was it determined to be altered or something? I swear, I'm always the last to know about anything around here.Please be better!!
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@doubledragon quit being a fricken ambulance chasing drama queen.
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@UFFDAH said:
@doubledragon quit being a fricken ambulance chasing drama queen.All I wanted to know was if it was altered. How is that being drama queen? There's no need to insult me.
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Its been a really crappy past week or so which is when I first found out concerns about the Musial. Today in particular has been a crappy day. I keep telling myself its just cardboard and things could be worse.
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@UFFDAH said:
Its been a really crappy past week or so which is when I first found out concerns about the Musial. Today in particular has been a crappy day. I keep telling myself its just cardboard and things could be worse.I don't think it is altered. There's so much paranoia around, everyone is going crazy about alteration. It doesn't even look remotely altered.
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My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.
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This scandal has everyone so paranoid. It's crazy. All of a sudden, everything is altered. It's just ridiculous.
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Actually go to the '52 Mantle PWCC thread,comment #2626. This one is disgusting and i hope UFFDAH gets made whole on this one.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/4084863 -
@UFFDAH said:
My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.Here's the thing,....
1 It's a beautiful card regardless
2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.1 -
I stopped worrying about condition of cards a long time ago. I just found that if I did worry about it, too much stress would overwhelm me and ruin the hobby for me. Like UFFDAH said, I got into the hobby for enjoyment, not stress. Cards weren't made to withstand a lot of damage. They were made to enjoy, and collect, and trade with friends. They're made of thin cardboard paper, not steel.
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@doubledragon said:
I stopped worrying about condition of cards a long time ago. I just found that if I did worry about it, too much stress would overwhelm me and ruin the hobby for me. Like UFFDAH said, I got into the hobby for enjoyment, not stress. Cards weren't made to withstand a lot of damage. They were made to enjoy, and collect, and trade with friends. They're made of thin cardboard paper, not steel.Me too. Just got a way off center psa 5 Montana rookie. It’s very liberating no longer worrying so much about condition. I still understand those who do care about condition, however.
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The premiums paid for these low pop rarities in PSA holders is based on the belief in PSA place as industry leader, it’s grading guidelines being applied universally, and it’s ability to ensure we “never get cheated”.
Some might see this particular example as something trivial, but what happened here goes against the rules we are all playing under and it is a significant risk to all of us who have collected high end PSA cards.
Sorry to hear this happened to a forum member, and a great one at that.
-Nathanael
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@PROMETHIUS88 said:
@UFFDAH said:
My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.Here's the thing,....
1 It's a beautiful card regardless
2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.I call BS on on your Number 1. it’s not a beautiful card regardless, if it’s trimmed then it’s an altered ruined card.
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@UFFDAH said:
Its been a really crappy past week or so which is when I first found out concerns about the Musial. Today in particular has been a crappy day. I keep telling myself its just cardboard and things could be worse.Indeed. The hobby, for many of us, is a release from all of the stresses of our normal jobs and lives. UFFDAH is squarely in the blast radius of this mess and I'm sorry to see that it has happened. I enjoy collecting condition rarities like you do. This whole mess has been agonizing and difficult to put context around and quantify. The air has been taken out of the sails of many collectors and the ball is squarely in the court of the principals in the hobby (e.g. PSA, BGS and SGC) and law enforcement to start the long, slow path of rebuilding confidence and bringing people to account for their transgressions.
I purchased a digital caliper earlier this week. I spent Thursday night and my lunch hour yesterday at the bank going over every single graded card of value in my collection. I measured my most expensive items as many as 10x in each direction to ensure the measurements were accurate. I went back over every single card with a 10x loupe and looked at the edges and the corners. it wasn't fun. It was a major stress in my life. It gave me a splitting headache and made me angry all over again about this situation and the impact it's had on folks like UFFDAH who haven't done anything wrong but pursue their hobby passionately.
I can only try to imagine the aggravation and frustration of this for you and I hope that the guarantor does right by you on this review.
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys1 -
@perkdog said:
@PROMETHIUS88 said:
@UFFDAH said:
My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.Here's the thing,....
1 It's a beautiful card regardless
2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.I call BS on on your Number 1. it’s not a beautiful card regardless, if it’s trimmed then it’s an altered ruined card.
I get what you are saying, but if a female gets a boob job...that isn't botched, are they not beautiful? You still look them...knowing they aren't real. I learned that from your "Perkies" oh so many years back!
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@PROMETHIUS88 said:
@perkdog said:
@PROMETHIUS88 said:
@UFFDAH said:
My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.Here's the thing,....
1 It's a beautiful card regardless
2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.I call BS on on your Number 1. it’s not a beautiful card regardless, if it’s trimmed then it’s an altered ruined card.
I get what you are saying, but if a female gets a boob job...that isn't botched, are they not beautiful? You still look them...knowing they aren't real. I learned that from your "Perkies" oh so many years back!
For some reason I truly believe you will agree with me when I say “Not the same thing” 😂. I stand by what I’m saying, there is no way a true collector can appreciate the beauty of a card knowing that it’s a trimmed card.
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And I miss the Perkies too bud 🍻
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CW just gave me the link to the blowout thread about this card. I am so sorry UFFDAH. It's heartbreaking too see this. I hope this is somehow made right for you. It angers me to see things like this happen to good people.
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Ya know?
I believe a platform like this is nothing more than a protracted form of twitter.
Pew research on twitter e.g., found that 90% of the posts were done by 10% of the people and the negativity was palpable.
What some over at net54 have done to Chris aka UFFDAH is just plain wrong IMO.
And I expect better here with respect to someone who's been nothing but a gentleman.
Mike3 -
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Edit: Just saw that Brent is taking it back. I hope you get a full refund, at least.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.0 -
This card to me is the smoking gun. That other thread makes it pretty obvious the card was altered. All the players - Moser, PWCC are involved. For Brent to claim that he had no knowledge on the background of a card he had recently sold, and was a monster in a 9, that was sold to and then consigned by one of his big clients, is the height of unethical behaviour.
UFFDAH - on your side, you seem like a great asset to the hobby. Trusting someone that should be able to be trusted makes you one of the good guys. My ask and obviously you owe me exactly nothing - would be that you share your experience as this goes along. You are in a unique position - large collector with means to impact change.
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@UFFDAH I hope you get whatever resolution you seek on this.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
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I hope you at least get a full refund, Chris.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.0 -
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Thats where this battle will be fought. PSA, in their announcement, encourage buyers to send back to seller.
IMO the seller should be responsible for the refund, and they can recover from the consignor.
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@80sOPC said:
Thats where this battle will be fought. PSA, in their announcement, encourage buyers to send back to seller.IMO the seller should be responsible for the refund, and they can recover from the consignor.
I agree, especially in this case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.4 -
Good luck man. Don't mind the bootlickers here. You were scammed and deserve to made whole.
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The alteration scam w/Moser appears to have begun w/serial numbers starting w/~260xxxxx and continuing into the early 4xxxxxxx when PSA switched to the 4s after the 2s ran out. Of course...not all cards within this window were altered...just the window in which some alteration occurred. It seems cards beginning w/0s, 1s, 2s up to ~260xxxxx, 3s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s MIGHT be safe from Moser's dirty work. Moser might have targeted early graded cards...but the end result card after touching up now resides in a holder w/serial number ~260xxxxx---->29999999 and 40xxxxxx ------->42xxxxxx.
Currently...it feels like a mine field out there when purchasing cards. Tread lightly...
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@mintonlypls said:
The alteration scam w/Moser appears to have begun w/serial numbers starting w/~260xxxxx and continuing into the early 4xxxxxxx when PSA switched to the 4s after the 2s ran out. Of course...not all cards within this window were altered...just the window in which some alteration occurred. It seems cards beginning w/0s, 1s, 2s up to ~260xxxxx, 3s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s MIGHT be safe from Moser's dirty work. Moser might have targeted early graded cards...but the end result card after touching up now resides in a holder w/serial number ~260xxxxx---->29999999 and 40xxxxxx ------->42xxxxxx.Currently...it feels like a mine field out there when purchasing cards. Tread lightly...
I strongly doubt he only started doctoring cards that recently. I don't think you can determine anything either way just based on the cert number, in any case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.2 -
But weren't there lists w/serial numbers associated w/Moser posted on Blow out Forum? Any card associated w/Moser would be suspicious for doctoring. Right? Do you feel comfortable buying a card in which he handled?
mint_only_pls0 -
@mintonlypls said:
But weren't there lists w/serial numbers associated w/Moser posted on Blow out Forum? Any card associated w/Moser would be suspicious for doctoring. Right? Do you feel comfortable buying a card in which he handled?I'm not saying that I would feel comfortable at all about buying a card that he handled, but he has been involved in the hobby for many years so the notion that this is something that just recently evolved involving only certs as recent as the ones you mentioned above is a misguided one, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.2 -
@grote15 said:
@mintonlypls said:
But weren't there lists w/serial numbers associated w/Moser posted on Blow out Forum? Any card associated w/Moser would be suspicious for doctoring. Right? Do you feel comfortable buying a card in which he handled?I'm not saying that I would feel comfortable at all about buying a card that he handled, but he has been involved in the hobby for many years so the notion that this is something that just recently evolved involving only certs as recent as the ones you mentioned above is a misguided one, imo.
Perhaps in his case this is true. But he’s not the only one. You guys are are very baseball focused and rightfully so. The vast majority of collectors here collect vintage baseball.
But you should know that there have been modern hockey trimmers out there that started much more recently and that also happen to deal in modern Baseball, Football, & Basketball. So I encourage everyone to head to BO and explore the sports that you collect. Because you may see a cross over in modern back into vintage.
Kevin
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Based on the pictures I saw, the card does NOT looked trimmed - to me trimming is on the top of the list as the most offensive. Not being trimmed might be the "bright side" of this situation (imho).
The side-by-side picture comparisons do make it look like it is the same card. I don't know if the identified spots on the front are removed dirt/debris or added color (big no-no)? (or something different like repaired scratches or dimples).
The card does look beautiful, and if the spots were just removal of dirt/debris then perhaps some day if "Conservation" is widely accepted, this card could retain its 10 grade.
I was just thinking that "Accepted Conservation" by the TPG's might be the only way to prevent huge losses in this entire mess...
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@doubledragon said:
I stopped worrying about condition of cards a long time ago. I just found that if I did worry about it, too much stress would overwhelm me and ruin the hobby for me. Like UFFDAH said, I got into the hobby for enjoyment, not stress. Cards weren't made to withstand a lot of damage. They were made to enjoy, and collect, and trade with friends. They're made of thin cardboard paper, not steel.I’m glad that has worked for you. In my case, for the sets I am interested in collecting, I have already owned them in low grade in the past and could complete them affordably in low grade in a half hour if I wanted to do so. Really the majority of the fun and challenge for me is locating high grade examples with nice eye appeal. Without that aspect of it I would likely stop collecting altogether.
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@MLBdays said:
but in his case with this particular card share....he would have been far better served to stay anonymous ~ WHICH > IS REALLY the antithesis of why this forum was created.... there is no upside to sharing with speculation like this
waiting to devour you ~ whether its warranted or not.I don't see how sharing, or not sharing, this item made any difference. The card wasn't found here. It was found by going back through sales history. Someone owns every single one of these items that has been sold and may be altered. No one is waiting to "devour" anyone. Everyone is angry this is going on. I'd imagine that Chris would be just as angry or concerned in private as he has displayed he is here. Sharing a card on a forum isn't the cause of this issue. Researching, finding and posting information about suspect cards isn't the cause of this issue.
The cause of this issue is scammers altering items that either were missed or can't be detected by the grading company consistently.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys2 -
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@mintonlypls said:
The alteration scam w/Moser appears to have begun w/serial numbers starting w/~260xxxxx and continuing into the early 4xxxxxxx when PSA switched to the 4s after the 2s ran out. Of course...not all cards within this window were altered...just the window in which some alteration occurred. It seems cards beginning w/0s, 1s, 2s up to ~260xxxxx, 3s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, 9s MIGHT be safe from Moser's dirty work. Moser might have targeted early graded cards...but the end result card after touching up now resides in a holder w/serial number ~260xxxxx---->29999999 and 40xxxxxx ------->42xxxxxx.Currently...it feels like a mine field out there when purchasing cards. Tread lightly...
Ty for the serial number correlations, easier to raise an eyebrow now
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The funny thing is that in most cases you can’t even tell the difference between a 9 and a 10 outside of the stupid money some of these guys throw at the “10”.s Unpopular statement or not but that’s part of the reason there is so much fraud in this hobby
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@MLBdays but in his case with this particular card share....he would have been far better served to stay anonymous ~ WHICH IS REALLY the antithesis of why this forum was created.... there is no upside to sharing with speculation like this waiting to devour you ~ whether its warranted or not.
??????
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There’s an easy way to settle it. Put it under a black light. Something every $25k card should undergo before it leaves the door. The sleeve was either improved on the card or in the scan. Hopefully for the OP’s and hobby’s sake, it’s the latter.
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@1970s said:
@DotStore said:
Based on the pictures I saw, the card does NOT looked trimmed - to me trimming is on the top of the list as the most offensive. Not being trimmed might be the "bright side" of this situation (imho).The side-by-side picture comparisons do make it look like it is the same card. I don't know if the identified spots on the front are removed dirt/debris or added color (big no-no)? (or something different like repaired scratches or dimples).
The card does look beautiful, and if the spots were just removal of dirt/debris then perhaps some day if "Conservation" is widely accepted, this card could retain its 10 grade.
I was just thinking that "Accepted Conservation" by the TPG's might be the only way to prevent huge losses in this entire mess...
I tend to agree with this sentiment. And if we're allowed to remove wax from cards, I guess removing stains is just a step beyond that. Now if the Musial was recolored, then that is taking it a bit too far.
So does wax removal fall into the altered territory ? Does stain removal fall into altered ? It's all too confusing for me. I'd say to each their own, but full disclosure would be nice.
A big part of this discussion should be what is (if anything) acceptable. Wax removal, (as long as surface not affected)? Water based glue/paste removal? "Dewarping" (as long as thickness of card unaffected)? Then you get into soaking, ok for distilled water?
It seems to me that some aren't to bothered with at least one or two of the above mentioned processes. Trimming, even if card ends up withing tolerance, chemical soaking and color enhancing (I never imagined this could even be done) seem to be out of bounds? Crease removal and "rebuilding" of corners/pinholes would seem to be wrong in everyone's opinion!?!?!?
Using the "realistic" guideline, some of these alterations when done "correctly" are going to be undetectable, and like/agree with it or not, the card is not changed but foreign substances removed. I am unaware of how to prove this has been done.
I am not even sure we can come to any kind of consensus, but I think we should/could try.
TPG's are limited to observation in authenticating and grading or cards. Obviously they cannot use destructive testing or even chemical testing to check for evidence of alteration. There's only so much that can be done.
Secondly, I would love to see the TPG's work together (at least on high dollar items) to build a database of high quality front and back scans and share the information with each other and the collectors as well.
I have only been collecting for about 30 years and have seen altered cards from almost day 1. I remember pulling an insert from a pack in the early 1990's that had dark blue borders, the guy at the card shop took out a felt tip marker and "fixed" the corners. He said "it took a while to find the exact color to match"!!!! I have a few more stories, but I am sure we all do.
We now have an opportunity to fight back as a community. We need the information to do it.
I want to offer a thanks to the "investigators" who have offered up some great evidence.
Now that we have all had a little time to get over our shock and outrage, let's try to offer up solutions.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set1
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