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1952 Bowman Stan Musial #196 PSA Gem Mint 10

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  • 60sfan60sfan Posts: 311 ✭✭✭

    @DotStore said:
    Based on the pictures I saw, the card does NOT looked trimmed - to me trimming is on the top of the list as the most offensive. Not being trimmed might be the "bright side" of this situation (imho).

    The side-by-side picture comparisons do make it look like it is the same card. I don't know if the identified spots on the front are removed dirt/debris or added color (big no-no)? (or something different like repaired scratches or dimples).

    The card does look beautiful, and if the spots were just removal of dirt/debris then perhaps some day if "Conservation" is widely accepted, this card could retain its 10 grade.

    I was just thinking that "Accepted Conservation" by the TPG's might be the only way to prevent huge losses in this entire mess...

    Removing dirt debris should be acceptable.

  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,608 ✭✭✭✭

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.

    Here's the thing,....

    1 It's a beautiful card regardless
    2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
    3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.

    Says the guy who didn’t get taken for nearly $30 K. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Have you no compassion?

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • HighGradeLegendsHighGradeLegends Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2019 10:22AM

    @shagrotn77 said:

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.

    Here's the thing,....

    1 It's a beautiful card regardless
    2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
    3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.

    Says the guy who didn’t get taken for nearly $30 K. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Have you no compassion?

    No one deserves to be defrauded, regardless of their economic status. I am very empathetic here. The whole situation plain sucks.

  • mnolan315mnolan315 Posts: 71 ✭✭

    How was this card altered

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Take the 5 mins everyone else did to read the threads that clearly outline the alteration. Even within this thread there is the answer.

    @mnolan315 said:
    How was this card altered

  • fleet47fleet47 Posts: 78 ✭✭

    My first and last post on this situation. PSA must step up and do the right thing at this time. It is critical for the hobby. Transparency of cards that are known to have been submitted by this individual should by made public. Otherwise, we are being kept in the dark. Probably the most critical time in PSA history.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mnolan315 said:
    How was this card altered

    No one knows for sure. Comments have included trimmed, stain removal and color enhancing.

    My GUESS is it was soaked in a liquid that "brightened" the card.

    I can't imagine how the colors could be tampered with. Aren't they actually little "dots"?

    Each one individually retouched?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The scans clearly show a spot that was removed and some colour added. Not sure why with todays tech it’s so mind blowing that someone could figure out how to micro dose and blend colour. A few Brown RCs popped up today that have obvious colour added.

    All of this us well documented, anyone that is confused is not following or intentionally playing dense

  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,434 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @shagrotn77 said:

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.

    Here's the thing,....

    1 It's a beautiful card regardless
    2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
    3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.

    Says the guy who didn’t get taken for nearly $30 K. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Have you no compassion?

    Don't get me wrong, what was done in all aspects is horrible and to be in the position to possibly be out $28k sucks....I do feel bad for him and hope he is made whole. I think Moser.....as should anyone else that is found to be involved. Not just this card but any card that was altered then misrepresented. It's horrible that ANYONE was taken by these greedy a**holes and I hope that all get their just punishment. My point was that he obviously didn't spend his last two nickels on the card and there are many things in life that could be much worse.
    Is it a total d*ck move to alter any card for the aspect of money....YES. I would never do it and I sure as hell don't condone it. I'm just a guy that loves the hobby and got back into it after losing my father. The memories and now the enjoyment I get from it is great. But I would not for ONE second hesitate throwing my entire collection into the firepit if it was a choice between my cards and the health of one of my kids or family members. Hell, I give stuff away here, regularly, because I enjoy getting cards in the hands of people that enjoy them.
    So, before you go blindly judging me, please take a look at all aspects of life and realize that if a baseball card is at the top rung of your priorities, your priorities may need some work.

    This is the problem with the internet.

    It's so easy for people to misunderstand the thoughts, feelings and intentions behind the words.

    IMO, it's time to let the process (by the authorities - via PSA e.g.) play out before relationships are irreparably harmed?

    I remember the same passion and confusion during the WIWAG deal back over a decade ago.

    Mike
  • This is precisely why they invented emojis

    :'(B):#>:)

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @80sOPC said:
    The scans clearly show a spot that was removed and some colour added. Not sure why with todays tech it’s so mind blowing that someone could figure out how to micro dose and blend colour. A few Brown RCs popped up today that have obvious colour added.

    All of this us well documented, anyone that is confused is not following or intentionally playing dense

    I am NOT debating you or trying to get into an argument. I got in a bit late, but have been following and am not "playing dense".

    I don't see much here that is what I would call well documented. I see some very compelling evidence though, on SOME of the cards pictured.

    First off we had several people say the card is trimmed because it doesn't have a rough cut. I am not familiar with this set, are they ALL rough cut, at least on one side?

    I see your name includes OPC, I have some OPC's without rough cuts. The absence of a rough cut does not "prove" a card has been trimmed.

    Now several have chimed in saying they don't think it's trimmed.

    Then (on a different thread) we got a scan of a PSA 9 and the PSA 10 claiming to be the same card (it does look like the same card to me) but the 10 looks like the color is brighter and the marks on the back are lighter, or gone.

    It certainly appears that the 52 Musial is the same card, but different/altered, however the two scans are different and no two scans are the same. Same resolution? When I got my new scanner the cards looked WAY different.

    How about a link to the Brown RCs you are referring to? I would like to see them.

    As I have stated in other threads, I worked for 24 years in a factory that made printed circuit boards, the process is very similar to how baseball cards are produced. Adding color without it being pretty easy to detect would be difficult. Does the Musial have a "gloss" finish on the front?

    If you can "bleach" out the darkening that naturally occurs with age (without lightening the ink), your back stains would be lightened or removed and the front color would appear bolder. Think of putting a blue dot on a bright white wall as opposed to a light tan wall. The contrast would make the dot on the whiter wall look bolder.

    My guess is this Moser fellow could be buying cards and altering them, resubmitting and getting a higher grade and making a lot of money. If true, he's not the only one.

    The card DID get a 9 the first time it was graded.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, guys. Let's chill out a bit. As Mike said above, we don't want to allow this to be the basis of bad feelings amongst ourselves. If this thread continues along these lines, I will lock it down.

    Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gemint said:
    There’s an easy way to settle it. Put it under a black light. Something every $25k card should undergo before it leaves the door. The sleeve was either improved on the card or in the scan. Hopefully for the OP’s and hobby’s sake, it’s the latter.

    I doubt that a black light would show everything. If the card was soaked, whatever it was soaked in might not "show up" under a black light. A clever card doctor would know about a black light.

    It would be nice to know if the TPG's do this during their inspection process.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AFLfan said:
    Ok, guys. Let's chill out a bit. As Mike said above, we don't want to allow this to be the basis of bad feelings amongst ourselves. If this thread continues along these lines, I will lock it down.

    I for one am completely chill here. Please don't misunderstand the tone of my post.

    What I see is very concerning, however I don't think anything is quite so black and white as is being said.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • PROMETHIUS88PROMETHIUS88 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the problem with the internet.

    It's so easy for people to misunderstand the thoughts, feelings and intentions behind the words.

    IMO, it's time to let the process (by the authorities - via PSA e.g.) play out before relationships are irreparably harmed?

    I remember the same passion and confusion during the WIWAG deal back over a decade ago.

    Mike, you are 100% correct. I had to stop reading the 54 forums because it was getting very nasty. I understand and agree that there needs to be resolution on the situation and not just swept under the rug as happens at times in this hobby. It can't be done overnight and folks just have to be patient.

    Promethius881969@yahoo.com
  • DotStoreDotStore Posts: 702 ✭✭✭✭

    Just wanted to clarify my comment that the card did not appear to be trimmed. I was basing that on the card in the PSA 9 compared to the card in the PSA 10 Slab.

    I'm assuming the card was not trimmed before the first PSA 9 Because otherwise it would mean PSA missed the trimming at least twice (initial PSA 9 and then the PSA 10). I don't think they would have missed it twice (imho)

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What really matters most here is UFFDAH. I hate to see this hobby become stressful for anybody. I just hope this can be made right somehow.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019 8:06AM

    @CrissCriss said:

    >

    There's nothing hilarious about it.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UFFDAH said:
    Thank You for the support because this situation is not fun and I would not wish it on anyone.

    Over on Net 54 there are a few that have to lob insults even though they are included in the mass of collectors I stand with and support for the betterment of the Hobby.

    I want to add my voice to those who have supported you. It must be a complete drag to have this happen.

    Collecting is supposed to be fun. Hope you can get the fun back soon!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • brad31brad31 Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019 7:54AM

    Very sorry that this happened to you. I keep looking and hoping none of mine show up - there was a card for which I was the underbidder and that made me queasy. Hope that you are made whole financially, but I know even if that happens it is sad to have a card you loved be shown to have been damaged by card doctors. It will be near impossible to replace it with something as nice - and the card was obviously worth more to you than the dollars you paid. I hope this does not sour you on the hobby. You have an amazing collection that anyone would be proud of. It stinks that this happened and I hate that people are taking advantage of us with altered cards.

    I am sure there are cards in my collection that are altered - I will likely never know which ones they are. Not sure if I am better or worse off that way.

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have edited/deleted a few of the more recent posts here. This is not a good situation from any point of view and participants are certainly nothing to be mocked. I will ask people to keep that in-mind moving forward.

    Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UFFDAH said:
    Thank You for the support fellas because this situation is not fun and I would not wish it on anyone.

    Over on Net 54 there are a few that have to lob insults even though they are included in the mass of collectors I stand with and support for the betterment of the Hobby.

    Yes there is an under current of envy that flares up here and there in those threads.

    What most of these folks are not understanding, and what is being documented very well, is cards at all price ranges being impacted. Sure there are 3 Mantles and this but large majority of the cards are under a few hundred bucks. And LOTs of modern cards, this isn’t a vintage problem, or even a graded problem. And it likely impacts tens thousands of cards - the only cards that are being caught are ones that were bought and sold by PWCC or numbered cards. They have found a 13 card run of SPA McDavid SPA’s as trimmed and sold. That print run is only 999.

    Non numbered, raw purchases, cards that were cracked and rejected will never get caught. In a weeks hobbyists have found a few hundred cards from one submitter and one seller, mostly sales from the past 2 years. The trimmer in question has been at it for more then a decade and subs hundreds of cards at a time. He can add colour and not get detected. How many 71’s are impacted?

    I know lots folks see this as drama, and want it to go away. But this is a crossroads moment for the hobby. Do hobbyists REALLY want to know what is in their collection or do we just want to move on, because at the end of the day we don’t care (not aimed at you UFFDAH).

    My guess is most don’t really want to know if their cards were altered, this will get buried (not here, Todd you are the man for allowing healthy discussion), and the next scam will dwarf it. At some point enough is enough

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @80sOPC said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    Thank You for the support fellas because this situation is not fun and I would not wish it on anyone.

    Over on Net 54 there are a few that have to lob insults even though they are included in the mass of collectors I stand with and support for the betterment of the Hobby.

    Yes there is an under current of envy that flares up here and there in those threads.

    What most of these folks are not understanding, and what is being documented very well, is cards at all price ranges being impacted. Sure there are 3 Mantles and this but large majority of the cards are under a few hundred bucks. And LOTs of modern cards, this isn’t a vintage problem, or even a graded problem. And it likely impacts tens thousands of cards - the only cards that are being caught are ones that were bought and sold by PWCC or numbered cards. They have found a 13 card run of SPA McDavid SPA’s as trimmed and sold. That print run is only 999.

    Non numbered, raw purchases, cards that were cracked and rejected will never get caught. In a weeks hobbyists have found a few hundred cards from one submitter and one seller, mostly sales from the past 2 years. The trimmer in question has been at it for more then a decade and subs hundreds of cards at a time. He can add colour and not get detected. How many 71’s are impacted?

    I know lots folks see this as drama, and want it to go away. But this is a crossroads moment for the hobby. Do hobbyists REALLY want to know what is in their collection or do we just want to move on, because at the end of the day we don’t care (not aimed at you UFFDAH).

    My guess is most don’t really want to know if their cards were altered, this will get buried (not here, Todd you are the man for allowing healthy discussion), and the next scam will dwarf it. At some point enough is enough

    Can you offer any suggestions to combat this issue?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • msubearfanmsubearfan Posts: 52 ✭✭✭

    Just want to drop in and say I feel bad for what happened to UFFDAH and all other collectors impacted by this issue. This kinda thing makes me sick. I’m already a skeptical person in general so this is not the kind of news I like to read. I prefer to buy raw vintage sets and choose the ones I want to grade because I’ve felt like if it gets slabbed and graded it’s going to be legit. I don’t want to have to worry about that now.

  • PROMETHIUS88PROMETHIUS88 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    Can you offer any suggestions to combat this issue?

    This, exactly. Bad issue, yes. We can say...oh, I'm not going to buy graded anymore. That's great, but what percentage of raw have been altered. I'm all for trying to get a handle on it, but as long as there is money involved, there are going to be people trying to take advantage of the situation. Heck, in 100 years, who's to say that ANY card, graded or not, hasn't been altered in some way. Again, not trying to minimize the issue, but there are so many other things in life more important.

    Promethius881969@yahoo.com
  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stone193 said:

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @shagrotn77 said:

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.

    Here's the thing,....

    1 It's a beautiful card regardless
    2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
    3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.

    Says the guy who didn’t get taken for nearly $30 K. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Have you no compassion?

    Don't get me wrong, what was done in all aspects is horrible and to be in the position to possibly be out $28k sucks....I do feel bad for him and hope he is made whole. I think Moser.....as should anyone else that is found to be involved. Not just this card but any card that was altered then misrepresented. It's horrible that ANYONE was taken by these greedy a**holes and I hope that all get their just punishment. My point was that he obviously didn't spend his last two nickels on the card and there are many things in life that could be much worse.
    Is it a total d*ck move to alter any card for the aspect of money....YES. I would never do it and I sure as hell don't condone it. I'm just a guy that loves the hobby and got back into it after losing my father. The memories and now the enjoyment I get from it is great. But I would not for ONE second hesitate throwing my entire collection into the firepit if it was a choice between my cards and the health of one of my kids or family members. Hell, I give stuff away here, regularly, because I enjoy getting cards in the hands of people that enjoy them.
    So, before you go blindly judging me, please take a look at all aspects of life and realize that if a baseball card is at the top rung of your priorities, your priorities may need some work.

    This is the problem with the internet.

    It's so easy for people to misunderstand the thoughts, feelings and intentions behind the words.

    IMO, it's time to let the process (by the authorities - via PSA e.g.) play out before relationships are irreparably harmed?

    I remember the same passion and confusion during the WIWAG deal back over a decade ago.

    >

    Over a decade ago Mike 😄 Believe it was around 1999-2000, and the National in Anaheim was very interesting that year with the stock market starting to rock and WIWAG getting nailed. Those guys obviously did not go to the Clinton school of PR - they came out and said yep we did it and we are sorry. Not a single denial iirc.

    KC

  • NGS428NGS428 Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wish you the best in this situation @UFFDAH. A big issue to deal with in what should be a fun hobby.

  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,608 ✭✭✭✭

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @shagrotn77 said:

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @UFFDAH said:
    My opinion is differing than yours Dragon, however I am no expert just someone that wants to collect as a stress reliever, not inducer. We'll see what PSA has to say when they review it.

    Here's the thing,....

    1 It's a beautiful card regardless
    2 You aren't going to be digging in dumpsters for your next meal if something is amiss
    3 There are so many things more important in our lives than cardboard.

    Says the guy who didn’t get taken for nearly $30 K. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Have you no compassion?

    Don't get me wrong, what was done in all aspects is horrible and to be in the position to possibly be out $28k sucks....I do feel bad for him and hope he is made whole. I think Moser.....as should anyone else that is found to be involved. Not just this card but any card that was altered then misrepresented. It's horrible that ANYONE was taken by these greedy a**holes and I hope that all get their just punishment. My point was that he obviously didn't spend his last two nickels on the card and there are many things in life that could be much worse.
    Is it a total d*ck move to alter any card for the aspect of money....YES. I would never do it and I sure as hell don't condone it. I'm just a guy that loves the hobby and got back into it after losing my father. The memories and now the enjoyment I get from it is great. But I would not for ONE second hesitate throwing my entire collection into the firepit if it was a choice between my cards and the health of one of my kids or family members. Hell, I give stuff away here, regularly, because I enjoy getting cards in the hands of people that enjoy them.
    So, before you go blindly judging me, please take a look at all aspects of life and realize that if a baseball card is at the top rung of your priorities, your priorities may need some work.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever been swindled, but it’s a horrible feeling once you realize that it happened. I was trying to put myself in the OP’s shoes when I wrote my post. It’s not so much about the amount of money, or whether or not you can absorb the hit, but the thought that someone intentionally screwed you over. It’s embarrassing, infuriating, saddening, etc. Of course collecting anything shouldn’t be at the top of someone’s priority list, but it doesn’t make getting scammed much easier. It can be a very bitter pill to swallow. I hope this clarifies where I was coming from.

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • PROMETHIUS88PROMETHIUS88 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @shagrotn77 said:

    I don’t know if you’ve ever been swindled, but it’s a horrible feeling once you realize that it happened. I was trying to put myself in the OP’s shoes when I wrote my post. It’s not so much about the amount of money, or whether or not you can absorb the hit, but the thought that someone intentionally screwed you over. It’s embarrassing, infuriating, saddening, etc. Of course collecting anything shouldn’t be at the top of someone’s priority list, but it doesn’t make getting scammed much easier. It can be a very bitter pill to swallow. I hope this clarifies where I was coming from.

    Oh yeah, I get you. It is sh*tty. Been scammed by renters, just recently by a guy that was supposed to remove a tree from a rental property and the family business got hit at a coin show a few years back for the tune of around $50k. This is just to name a few. I guess I'm just an eternal optimist and always try to find some good. I know it's hard to find any good in any of this. Lol, I didn't mean to come back hot at you. I know everyone's intentions here are good and we don't want to see any of our people get taken to the cleaners. I just think there are a lot of different angles people are looking at the situation and as Mike said, sometimes typed comments can be taken out of context. If you happen to be at the Nationals, I'll let you scam me out of a couple cocktails!! ;)

    Promethius881969@yahoo.com
  • demondeacsdemondeacs Posts: 117 ✭✭✭

    @UFFDAH said:
    Thank You for the support fellas because this situation is not fun and I would not wish it on anyone.

    Over on Net 54 there are a few that have to lob insults even though they are included in the mass of collectors I stand with and support for the betterment of the Hobby.

    I don't understand why anyone would insult you, but I quit paying attention to that board after the feds published Mastro's shill bidder list.

    FWIW, I expect the blowout community will end like Lord of the Flies if a similar list is ever published for PWCC.

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sure:

    1) Be informed. There is a TON of info out there on this issue. There is no reason to not understand the core of this issue.

    2) Hold the folks involved accountable. I can’t tell you what this should mean to you but I know what my path is. Respect to anyone that cares, or doesn’t care. Just please be informed

    3) Don’t pass known altered cards onto the next guy. There are remediation steps available, take them

    Can you offer any suggestions to combat this issue?

  • HighGradeLegendsHighGradeLegends Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭

    @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    Wow, kinda like the VW diesel buyback program...

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HighGradeLegends said:

    @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    Wow, kinda like the VW diesel buyback program...

    Is this actually happening or just a random "twit"?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @HighGradeLegends said:

    @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    Wow, kinda like the VW diesel buyback program...

    Is this actually happening or just a random "twit"?

    He’s a sports business reporter who has worked for ABC, CNBC, ESPN, etc.

  • @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    The last part makes no sense. Why would PWCC be offering to "give them to law enforcement" to take them out of circulation? They are the ones who were fraudulently selling the cards. Good grief, they think everyone is stupid too, don't they? It sounds like they are trying to get rid of the evidence so that you can't file a complaint against them. Still trying to play the victim. It would be hilarious if not pathetic.

    I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.

  • LOTSOSLOTSOS Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jimmy_Commonpants said:

    @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    The last part makes no sense. Why would PWCC be offering to "give them to law enforcement" to take them out of circulation? They are the ones who were fraudulently selling the cards. Good grief, they think everyone is stupid too, don't they? It sounds like they are trying to get rid of the evidence so that you can't file a complaint against them. Still trying to play the victim. It would be hilarious if not pathetic.

    I’m not sure I understand how giving them to LE is getting rid of evidence. I would argue they are providing evidence. Also I would wager that it may not be out of the goodness of their hearts that they are doing it.

    Kevin

  • brad31brad31 Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019 11:58AM

    Maybe law enforcement will stamp the back of the card altered like they stamped the counterfeit Rose rookies with a counterfeit stamp in the 80’s. That is the only way to ensure nobody else is fooled.

    Do not remember them having the original reprint stamp too - just the counterfeit but could not find an example picture with only counterfeit. Regardless hopefully these cards will be similarly stamped on the back.

  • PROMETHIUS88PROMETHIUS88 Posts: 2,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @brad31 said:
    Maybe law enforcement will stamp the back of the card altered like they stamped the counterfeit Rose rookies with a counterfeit stamp in the 80’s. That is the only way to ensure nobody else is fooled.

    Do not remember them having the original reprint stamp too - just the counterfeit but could not find an example picture with only counterfeit. Regardless hopefully these cards will be similarly stamped on the back.

    That, then poses more issues. The cards aren't "counterfeit", just altered. Some may argue that stamping them as such would ruin them more than they already are. Going to be a lot of decisions to be made.

    Promethius881969@yahoo.com
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  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019 1:28PM

    @PROMETHIUS88 said:

    @brad31 said:
    Maybe law enforcement will stamp the back of the card altered like they stamped the counterfeit Rose rookies with a counterfeit stamp in the 80’s. That is the only way to ensure nobody else is fooled.

    Do not remember them having the original reprint stamp too - just the counterfeit but could not find an example picture with only counterfeit. Regardless hopefully these cards will be similarly stamped on the back.

    That, then poses more issues. The cards aren't "counterfeit", just altered. Some may argue that stamping them as such would ruin them more than they already are. Going to be a lot of decisions to be made.

    It is not appropriate to do anything to deface a card. If a card is determined to be altered, it should be holdered as such. If it is cracked and resubmitted, PSA has to be able to catch the alterations. If they are not able to do that, nothing else really matters.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is not illegal to alter a card like it is to counterfeit one. It’s only illegal to fraudulently sell it as unaltered, and that is difficult to prove without a smoking gun that establishes foreknowledge and intent. Stamping an altered card really doesn’t make sense.

  • DotStoreDotStore Posts: 702 ✭✭✭✭

    Even if you stamp the cards, someone will have a "conservation" procedure to remove the stamp...

  • @LOTSOS said:

    @Jimmy_Commonpants said:

    @LOTSOS said:
    Not sure where to post this but wanted to share this Tweet from Darren Rovell. Here’s hoping you get made whole @UFFDAH !

    The last part makes no sense. Why would PWCC be offering to "give them to law enforcement" to take them out of circulation? They are the ones who were fraudulently selling the cards. Good grief, they think everyone is stupid too, don't they? It sounds like they are trying to get rid of the evidence so that you can't file a complaint against them. Still trying to play the victim. It would be hilarious if not pathetic.

    I’m not sure I understand how giving them to LE is getting rid of evidence. I would argue they are providing evidence. Also I would wager that it may not be out of the goodness of their hearts that they are doing it.

    What I am saying is I don't believe for a second they intend on giving anything to anyone if you send it to them for a refund. They will hold onto it for a while and likely try to sell it again at some point when this blows over. Meanwhile, if people do this, all the "evidence" of the fraudulently sold cards disappears. The claim that they will hand these cards over to LE purports that they are somehow the victim here and are helping LE catch the "real crooks".

    I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,915 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More new information!

    Return your cards regardless of authenticity and get double your money back!!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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