What would a 1933 Israel Switt Saint be worth...
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
...If the US government melted it into a small blob but had it certified and holdered with an appropriate label.
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Those that say melt value would be wrong.
It would be less of an affront to our hobby if they just defaced or marked them in some manner and had them sold as chattel. Maybe a "canceled" X across the reverse....or stamped with a circle "S" for Switt? After all, they were minted and are genuine US gold coinage.
What would the "blob" be worth? I'd pay a premium to the spot value but not much of one. I could see collectors who like unusual items paying $10K for one. I'd have a hard time seeing $100K though. Now what if those blobs were given to Mr. Carr to turn them into nice looking replica's? That would be cool.
Maybe we will find out some day, but I have my doubts the Mint will ever do so. The Treasury Department is in a bit of a conundrum. They promised the Farouk buyer it would be the only legal one so selling as is doesn't seem like an option. Might the remainder end up in the Smithsonian with the national collection?
Does anyone have the text of that "promise"? The "only legal one" doesn't seem like something a rational person would promise. Perhaps something like, "no legal coins without proper paperwork" is more plausible - leaving an out for other coins with export approval papers, etc.
And let's not forget there are likely other 1933's still out there hiding. You can have a truly complete set....just can't tell anyone or have it in the REGISTRY.
Cameonut: While I agree it would be a conundrum, I would take the Word of a horse trader or used car salesmen over any Government agency. Silver and gold certificates were once good for what is printed on them. Imho, the entire handling of the 1933 20's has been a classic Government fubar from hell ever since 1933.
I wouldn't pai more than melt. Gold is gold without a coin stamped on it.
But I never underestimate the madness of crowds.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I would see it as just a lump of gold... a nugget....IMO it would have no real significance... What once was, would be no more.....I am probably breathing air that George Washington breathed at one time... does not make the air or me any more significant....I do like gold nuggets... I prefer those which I have found myself though.... Cheers, RickO
Despite man's intellect, there is always stupid money on the table.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I would offer a quick $10k as it would be a quick flip at multiples of that.
Based on what?
IIRC there's a thread out there about a Secret Service Agent doing a presentation at a recent PAN show about the 1933's.
I might be misstating, but thought he said the gov't already knew there were more out there, and specifically, how one might be recovered, but there was no reason for collectors to believe that any effort would be made to do so.
More than a few oldsters veterans know a guy or two who may have smiled. One likely winked back
A very reliable old friend told me of his in-hand experience with four pieces that took place long long before the Farouk coin sold.
"Based on what?"
History would be worth a significant premium.
$15 Peace Dollar that traveled with Buzz on Apollo 11 sold for $30K or so.
Once being a million dollar plus coin has its benefits.
A melted gold coin is worth its weight in gold, nothing more.
What does gold dust or specks from the SS Central America shipwreck bring in the retail market these days? Surely well over melt. How about gold ingots from the old west? Some of them aren't even stamped but their pedigree is some cases can be traced.
We would know where a melted 1933 gold blob had come from. Then again, I'd want a bullet-proof chain of custody on such a "blob" such that there was no doubt you own a "genuine" 1933 blob. For my money I'd want a numismatic/coin dealer guru watching the process from end to end. Though if a number of 1933's are still out there, these blobs would have a LOT less significance. You'd have to round up pretty much every one first....and increase the blob pops a bit.
Why would a certified melted 1933 double eagle be any more legal to own than one that is intact? The issue was that the gold was stolen from the U,S, Government. Therefore the gold remains legally stolen even if it is in another form.
Because the government could proclaim them legal to own. The struck coins are far different than lumps of gold. They wouldn't be coins any more just chattel. And they (and possibly the Langbords) could reap some benefit. And that doesn't violate any promise to the Farouk coin owner than no more 1933 $20's would be monetized. Just fantasizing here....which is the gist of this entire thread. The US Govt melted down tons of coin gold back in the 1930's and turned them into bars kept at the Federal Depositories. If they decided to sell any of those bars (ie lumps) they would be legal to own....even though they came melted coins....some of it from the earlier melted 1933 Saints. Can anyone prove which bars have 1933 Saint gold in them?
And Jackie Kennedy's imitation pearl necklace was worth a couple of bucks if found in a thrift store. Pedigreed it brought over a quarter million if memory serves. People like the stories.
The provenance of a melted gold coin is immaterial - some might pay more the melt, but what do they have? With the Kennedy necklace the buyer has something touched, worn, enjoyed, maybe even cherished by a highly regarded notable person. It's also a connection to an era of challenge, change and positive leadership that remains a fond memory for many - probably including the buyer. It's a $20 trinket with a "million dollar" provenance.
A melted 1933 DE has none of that - it is just a lump of gold. The rest of the 1933s are sitting in Ft. Knox in the form of anonymous bars.
Have to disagree on that. Those 1933 lumps were owned by Izzy Switt and purchased directly from the USMint or from those who purchased them directly. Think of numismatists who were offered those coins or got to view them? Even Secretary of the Treasury William Woodin owned a 1933 Saint....no doubt "legally" at the time....since he made the rules. You don't think Izzy just put these 10 away to never see the light of day again until 2001? He sold other specimens to big names in the coin hobby. And most of those were confiscated by the Govt in the 1930's to 1950's. And then we have the Langbord storyand litigation over the past 20 yrs or so. There's definitely a story there....and it's no over as long as specimens survive. And the coins are not anonymous lumps like the bars sitting at Fort Knox. For lumps of gold, the Izzy Switt coins would have a pretty good story.....a lot better stories than many US Rarities....for example the 1927-d Saints. What if you had a pedigreed lump of silver from one of the silver pieces that Judas had received. Just a lump? Provenance never matters on a lump of metal?
We can disagree on what buyers of 1933 lumps might have. But we can probably agree the new owners would pay a price you and I would find quite extraordinary. I wouldn't pay $772K for JFK's golf clubs...but Arnold Schwarzenegger did. Nor would I pay $2 MILL for one of the couple of Ringo's black oyster pearl drum kits from the Sullivan show era. But, someone did. A hunk of space rock from an asteroid is just a lump of non-earthly minerals. Yet they pay big money for them.
I might be remembering incorrectly, but thought I’d read that the agent knew of a particular example, which was subsequently voluntarily relinquished but it’s owner.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
roadrunner - I understand your comment and opinion. But, much of your material is wrong -- just plain not factual. For example:
A little lump of gold is just that. There is no human connection.
You're an idiot
You say idiotically ignorant unsympathetic and ungenerous things in a tone of magisterial authority.
But you have nothing of a collector's passion. And scant empathy for it.
If it's meaningless to you, it just ain't worth it to nobody.
The story is there... There are loads of people who would pay multiples of melt for a certified melted Izzy Switt '33 $20
Coming to a website where people exuberantly express their sensory and esthetic satisfaction for what they experience viewing coins and then arrogantly crapping on them as shiny baubles ranks up there with deliberately farting in class.
That makes 2 of us. Your statements do not seem any more "factual" than mine. Sorry not buying your comments either. Yes, sometime coin history is more myth, opinion and a tad of logic than pure hard facts. I did read along the way that Woodin owned a 1933....didn't make that up. Do you have a signed statement from Woodin attesting to the opposite? Seems like you're confusing opinion with facts on your "statements." If you're looking for 100% irrefutable evidence in the coin world, it's not the best place to look. Logic has to be applied the best we can. I can assure you that the 1933's did not walk out of mint on their power. US Mint records and original mintage are some of the worst "proof" and "facts" out there..
Remember, since there are no written references to Jesus until decades after his death, and no records of his birth, he didn't exist, a la Burdette. Reductio ab adsurdum
Speaking as a real buyer: A MINIMUM of $2 million each. The amount of really rich people who love 1933 gold is amazing. I put a feeler out to buy the whole deal years ago as did someone else I know
roadrunner - It's obvious from your response that you have read nothing, with the possible exception of internet drivel. If you are correct in your comments, then let's see the evidence - what is it, where published, by whom, when, are the sources reliable? Start a thread. I'm sure many will be very interested.
All the data, and sources for what I mentioned are out there if you care to pick up a book or two and read. You offhandedly dismiss anything and everything that differs from your unfounded comments. If you choose to ignore them and exist in an absurdist world of numismatic fantasy and falsehood, that is your option. But, do not expect any reasonable person to believe what you say or trust your judgement.
There is no difficulty with a difference of opinion on the market value of a melted DE - it's hypothetical anyway. But trying to claim all sorts of fictional connections, and disparagement of Mr. Switt or others, is of no value at all.
In fact, when this topic was hot and heavy around here years ago, I read all your posts and/or findings here as well as those of many other researchers and court experts who did post here....much of it coming from the best "records" and opinions available. But if you prefer to label your own internet postings, and opinions as "internet drivel," I'm just fine with that.
For a period of 12 years I posted extensively on the 1933/1934 gold confiscations and Gold Reserve Act....most of it over on the Precious Metals Forum. Probably thousands of posts, most of them quite lengthy. Did you ever make it over there? Apparently not. Go back and read those 10,000-15,000 posts then get back to me.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2011/07/1933-double-eagle-trial-roger-burdette-takes-.all.html
I'll leave this article as exhibit A. It would seem RWB (old ID) and RogerB (new ID) can't even agree with themselves as to what the truth is. Your own internet "drivel" seems to have conflicted with your Langbord expert witness testimony. The irony is thick here. And in reading the first mentions of your testimony it would seem that back then you agreed with some of my current statements. So which era of your "opinions" do we go by? Past or Present. RWB or RogerB or whatever the next permutation becomes? Is this article I found on line just more "internet drivel?" One of the good things about internet "drivel," is that it never goes away.
roadrunner - The old CW article is the author's work and assumptions, not mine. Further, if you knew anything about trial procedure, you would already know that a witness may respond only to questions asked by counsel. Multiple attempts were made to bring in broader, accurate information - even for something as simple as the gold exchange standard - including that in published articles. But every attempt was overruled by the Court on objection from Treasury Counsel or in some cases on instruction to Counsel in chambers from the presiding judge.
Further, your quantity of posts or past messages is immaterial; the falsehoods you put on this thread are germane to the possible "value" of a melted coin, but only to support an opinion - nothign else. Please go read new books. Go learn new, reliable things. The, come back if you want to have a meaningful conversation.
[The only informal suggestion to be offered is to seek care of a professional therapist who can use simple conversational methods to help you separate fact and fiction.]
Can't we all get along?
There's no point in arguing over little factoids. If there is any premium being carried by the (fictional) lumps of gold, it is purely emotive and not based on facts at all.
I would point you to the 1913 Liberty Nickels. Those coins only have value because the P.T. Barnum of coins (Max Mehl) ran an ad offering to buy the non-existent circulating coins for $50 each. The real coins themselves should be, on a factual basis, rejected by the market as either fantasies or Mint worker shenanigans. Yet you aren't going to convince people that they shouldn't be 7 figure coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Melted slabbed 1933 Saints would actually be pretty cool. I’d jump in those waters
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Like I said, legally bring me all those coins at $2 million each and they are sold! That is a MINIMUM of they are worth.
I love how the no nothings are back as genuises. Please. stop the tripe. I'll write a check, you guys can act like hot shot know it every things. Last I looked, I maybe old now, but I am stupid.
Melting the coin doesn't change the legal character of whether it is stolen property or not; however, your post misses the point. The federal district court ruled that the Langboard coins were stolen from the government. There is nothing that prevents an owner of recovered stolen property from selling it later. The property is no longer "stolen" or bad at that point. Put another way, the federal government could sell the coins or melted bullion, and the pieces would be legal to own.
The Farouk agreement/contract that it would be the only "legal one" to own would be immaterial to the owners of the Switt bullion or coins and is not binding on third parties. At worst the government would breach its contract (depending on the language in it) and that would be the government's problem. Such a scenario would be between the Farouk specimen owner and the government.
The coins or melted bullion ingots?
Why must you be so vitriolic? Moreover, if you are going to question someone else's knowledge or intelligence sarcastically at least learn to spell "know nothing."
That's not as funny as the end of the post where she called herself stupid
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
2 million before or after it is melted?
If you are paying 2 million for a melted 33 double eagle, I've got a ball of gold for you that i SWEAR used to be granddad's 33 double eagle
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Laura, before replying, you should have read the OP’s initial post, not just the thread title. If accepted, your $2 million offer for the item he mentioned would likely be the largest numismatic burial of all time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You're not that old and you're not that stupid,
And you and I and 50 other guys can write the check.
Actually, you and I and 50 other guys can finance or get financing for the deal. You and I will both have to get a bank wire from someone else first.
Any seller can find the customers. Shall I make a list and cut you down to size?
If I bought them, your customers would stand in my line. I'm old and not so stupid, and you're not so stupid as to think differently
Tweet your self-aggrandizing self-promotion elsewhere
Responses from an impressive and well credentialed list of numismatists.
I agree. The items wouldn't even qualify for a CAC sticker.
Hmmm... would they be considered 1933 vintage or 2019 vintage?
1st Day of Melt holder?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Geez, I will pay $2 million per original 1933 $20. How moronic I need to say that.
I know of a $20 about 8 or so years ago that had been given back to the gov in exchange for a tax break I think). A very smart and wealthy person owned it. It was all hushed up. I heard from the guy who did the deal.
Well, you called all of us stupid for question what a MELTED $20 DE would be worth. So, yeah, you kind of need to say it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You know I'm a bottom feeder.
Remember the Cripple Creek Collection?
How much do you want for the impaired one if you get the deal?
Assuming you can out-pay me.
Or the 49 others.
You know how many people in this business can arrange for a $20M letter-of-credit?
I wanted to edit that sentence the instant I saw it. And now I hear "Instant Karma" in the background.
Dancing smiley please
Stifle yourself. You know you already got screwed out of both 1849 $20's, right?
How about:
Melt 5 of them into an 900,000 ounces run of gold (or whatever it takes to mint 1,000,000 coins).
Using the best know die makers, etc. EXACTLY copy the 1933 DE, cranking out 1,000,000 coins, in special presentation boxes.
Mix into the newly minted boxes, the other 5 (Like the W quarters), with a special "mark" be in whatever that only the Mint can detect (Donald's thumbprint, radiate them, whatever).
Send 1/2 to ebay, 100 a week, or something, with the proceeds going to upgrading Veteran Medical Care.
Once the dust settles, allow the other 500.000 to be bought for melt value plus $100, based on a random drawing of US citizen tax returns, until the 500,000 are bought.
$2 million sounds pretty cheap. At that level, there wouldn't be much to lose in an auction given the history, interest, and rarity (even with an increased number of known survivors). I'm sure Stacks or Heritage would do it at a deeply discounted price and possibly free for the publicity and advertising.
I sure do:
https://cripplecreek.com/cripple-creek/?sort=featured&page=2
Huh? Still trying to figure out what the heck you are sayin' here since none of those sentences work together.
Best, SH