Platinum is getting killed.
keets
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Platinum is getting killed as a PM. I wonder just how low it can go. I would imagine that anyone holding would think twice before selling yet I see a lot of listings on eBay. The problem, they are all sky-high, priced as though Platinum was still priced around $1,300 on the spot market. Is anyone paying those sort of prices or are these listing left begging??
I ask because I have waited a long time to buy Platinum for a denomination set I have.
Al H.
1
Comments
I've followed platinum prices on ebay for a long time, and what you say is true. High listing prices in a down market are an indication of illiquidity, which means that you have to really want a coin if if fits your collecting needs.
I started collecting Plats as a two-pronged strategy in 2003 or so, thinking that paying a moderate premium wouldn't get me into too much trouble as long as I could build both a collection and a position in bullion at the same time.
The best strategy now for a Plat collector might well be to eschew buying the coin you need and instead to hedge with straight bullion and simply wait for prices to move up. Once that happens, make the trade for the coin(s) you need.
I knew it would happen.
I did not move into platinum as a precious metal store of value....Being a tad old fashioned, I stayed with gold and silver. I was not attracted to it as jewelry either. However, I must say, some of the new coins do have outstanding art on them....so maybe....
Cheers, RickO
As more and more cars go electric look for platinum prices to continue downward. The NCLT platinum coins are just pretty pieces of bullion with a thin collector base so don't expect "numismatic premium" to be of much help for owners of the NCLT platinum coins.
This is true but a decade(s) long issue, nothing immediate.
All the PMs have been getting killed lately. Thank God for today's rally, helped me escape a rather steep silver position.
As for @keets original question: 15 years ago Platinum was $400 per ounce and palladium was half that, so...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I won’t offer / bid on them unless around melt.
Platinum is an industrial metal, not a money substitute like gold. That's also my explanation for the long term multiple expansion between gold and silver.
The first I recall seeing spot for gold and silver, it was just under 20-1 in 1976. At the bubble peak in 1980, about 17-1. At the 2001 low for both, around 100-1. During the most recent bull market up to the May 2011 peak in silver prices,, I don;t think it ever fell below about 35-1.
That's not terribly helpful if spot goes from $1000 when you buy to $300 when you sell...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Since I like to point it out, I will once again mention the utter irrationality of this position with respect to gold. [Note: It IS the market position, however.]
A useful, much scarcer industrial metal like platinum is NOT a money substitute. A yellow metal with largely cosmetic uses (about 90% of its use) IS a "money substitute".
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Gold is really overpriced relative to other commodities and probably practically all physical goods versus the long term average. I don't have it in front of me but a chart from 1995 (when gold was much cheaper than now even relatively) covering two centuries of data illustrated that it was at least twice the average for this period. I have an update from around 2012 and the ratio was (and still is) even worse.
I've been a Platinum fan since about 1999. Back then I think I remember spot at $480. I bought all the way up to $2200 in 2008. Sat through the crash down to $780ish and suffered a lot of pain. Now looks like 2008 is repeating itself again. Oh well, this Game we're in is not for Kids. If we make it to 2020 with World Peace, I'll take that as a reward.
I too have been a fan of platinum for many moons. And palladium, and gold and of course, silver. In answer to the OP‘s original question, I would not pay a premium for platinum at this level. There was much forum hoopla in the past about low mintage platinum Eagles and low mintage spouse ughhhllyyy and low mintage commemoratives. None of which I would pay over spot.
There are no must have platinum coins for me, at this point... And I am OK with that because I have three other metals to keep me occupied.
True, true, true. But people are still thinking that ALL metals are money proxies.
ONLY GOLD IS !!
Silver's decline is also due to photo technology making it superfluous stuff.
I still have some but that will be remedied soon.
Gold, people, GOLD !!!
I'm not smart enough to be consistently right in stocks or precious metals. I'm too old and it's too unpredictable. That said, I trust gold more than any other store of money and have a good percent of my retirement in the beautiful stuff!
Platinum pricing (if in a really nice MS70 plastic holder) for a couple coins I don't have on eBay is really insane high, maybe in more than one way
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Platinum-Eagle-100-PCGS-MS70-Statue-Liberty-1-oz/352664411654?hash=item521c6fde06:g:8IYAAOSwIs9c2xmi&frcectupt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Platinum-Eagle-50-PCGS-MS70-Statue-Liberty-1-2-oz/202685057645?hash=item2f30f88a6d:g:igMAAOSwNRJckti~&frcectupt=true
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Those prices are nuts.
Askin' ain't gettin'.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Gold is really overpriced relative to other commodities and probably practically all physical goods versus the long term average.
What's really overpriced is the dollar as the inevitable debt instrument that it is.
this Game we're in is not for Kids. If we make it to 2020 with World Peace, I'll take that as a reward.
+1
There was much forum hoopla in the past about low mintage platinum Eagles...…..None of which I would pay over spot...…..
There are no must have platinum coins for me, at this point...
(psst, comrade - the Beasts are low premium if you still like platinum)
Platinum pricing (if in a really nice MS70 plastic holder) for a couple coins I don't have on eBay is really insane high, maybe in more than one way
And THAT's no joke!!!!
I knew it would happen.
Thanks JmSki, I did score one of the beast bullion platinum’s. And The same with silver rolls and gold. I really do like that series for attractiveness and it tends to be pretty accessible in pricing if you are patient.
Just got me a roll of those 2 ounce crocs, too, from Provident.
Thanks for the reminder that I already got killed in platinum.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I never bought platinum, it wasn't considered money 2000 years ago and it's not a safe haven now. I invest almost everything in pre 33 gold
`For a modern bullion coin as well as imo an attractive and interesting issue-especially with the changing reverses in the past few years, Now with the new obverse designs as well. I am sitting on a small hoard of these-_ believe five short of a complete set of proof 1 ouncers, as well as most of the fractionals with about half of the MS and burnished ones with quite a few duplicates. I was hope to trade away duplicates to finish the set, but have seen the 'tougher' issues are seldom available and with platinums in the doldrums as well as with the AGE's and $5 commems, I am in no hurry to make any moves and will just wait for the right one to come around. Patience has worked the best for the moderns, as almost all become available on the secondary market for a lot less. It does look like I will be holding my platinums for some time though even though I was fortunate enough to have only bought one coin at the peak
This should be posted on precious metals category
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The crazy price to me is Palladium...Pd only went up because Platinum got too expensive. I guess the industrial users figure if they switch back, they'd just pay the same amount for the other, so why bother.
This should be posted on precious metals category.
I think not.
if you go back and check the OP you'll see I made mention of the denomination set I am working on, the Platinum would fill the $100 spot. if you still feel it is inappropriate I will keep my eyes open and make sure you post likewise anytime a Silver Eagle or Gold Eagle is mentioned.
once a thread starts I cannot control who replies about what.
Does anyone have any idea why? Platinum has many industrial uses too so I am a bit surprised. If I was a bullion stacker, I would hoard as many of the newer platinum coins as I could at as close to spot as I could.
Wouldn't it be possible to easily switch back and forth depending on supply and price to help bring lower prices and make them more competitive?
Platinum and palladium both have limited supply chains. Russia and South Africa account for like 90% of both metals between them. Both those countries have political problems and occasional supply disruptions. Then you have the usual paper trade in metals that drives prices.
Platinum is a catalytic metal but in industrial settings can be recovered in high yields. Once internal combustion engines are ancient history, I would expect significant drops in Pt and Pd.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Oh no...you’re responsible for anything we post!
Ha ha ha! 😄
If I'm not mistaken platinum is an important ingredient in the new types of batteries being developed for electric cars, etc. Time will tell!
Until I’m able to get all my teeth replaced with platinum, I’d like to see the spot price stay down.
Pt can't easily be an active "ingredient" in batteries as it is very hard to oxidize. It can be use as a conductive, corrosion-resistant coating on connectors much like gold. But in such a setting, the amount of platinum used is tiny and 100% recyclable.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
This comment should have been posted on the Dental Forum
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
It's being used as a catalyst.
@291fifth said:
As more and more cars go electric look for platinum prices to continue downward.
I'm somewhat skeptical about platinum's demise. Electric cars have their own set of major issues, not the least of which are: safety, where & how the power originates, how it is distributed, maintenance of the facilities & vehicles - and the associated costs for all of the above. Seems to be a decades-old boondoggle foisted once again onto the consuming American public.
Just sayin'.
I knew it would happen.
Platinum is now mostly used in diesels and palladium in gas engine vehicles. How go those markets will be how goes the metal prices. I don't know enough about catalytic converter production to know why they can't switch back and forth.
Wolfram.....
Gonna make palladium look ill eventually. Just keep your pants on.
Warren Buffet wants some, shouldn't you?
BTW, have you seen how Goldman Sachs has been screwing with aluminum prices for the past few years?
That's probably a fuel cell, not a battery. But still trace amounts with close to 100% recovery
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Yeah, I almost mentioned that it might have been in fuel cells when I read about it.
True. However, metal advocates still seem to think that gold and/or silver in particular should sell for much higher prices, ignoring what everything is worth. It's particularly evident in the recent past with silver where the current gold-silver multiple supposedly means that silver should be selling for a lot more, even though I'm not aware that silver is particularly relatively under priced versus everything else. It's cheap versus a barrel of oil but not necessarily housing in most parts of the US.
When the financial system ultimately "blows up", I expect a spike top in both metals followed by a crash (relative to other things people actually need to buy) in both.
Uh oh... it's getting political
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
The gold/ silver multiple has been out of whack for years. Either is the new norm or one of the metal needs to adjust. My guess would be silver. Reason:
A lot more industrial use with lower recovery rates. Although it is more common as a metal.
But I could also see gold dropping back to the $700 range which would "fix" the multiple.
Pt and Pd are anyone's guess. They are scarcer than gold with far more industrial use, though catalytic and recoverable. They are also dominated by two politically unstable countries. They could return to the $400 range or explode above $2k.
But Pt and Pd coins look a lot like silver coins so I can just keep playing with silver coins....I wonder what Fiji would charge for a Palladium Coke bottle cap....
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
That's not where I meant to go
the last time that happened it got ugly.
Platinum is certainly a precious metal. It has a far smaller supply than Palladium which for some reason has continued to rally with the stock market for the past several years....while Plat, Gold, and Silver have stunk up the joint. It makes no sense to me. You can use Platinum instead of Palladium in catalytic converters. And the supply of Plat and Pall are far, far lower than gold and silver. Very few consistent sources of Platinum - mainly South Africa and Russia....which are always in turmoil.
Plat doesn't have the "monetary" base that gold gives to the financial markets. I think it's still working on finding the 'real' bottom from the 2008 peak. When it turns around, it will be a sight to see. It's not a barbarous relic by any means. Palladium priced way above platinum? Bizzaro world....and no doubt plenty of games being played by the big banks around the world.
https://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=METALS&p=m1
precious metal charts. Just maybe, palladium is showing the way up for the other PMs? All of them rallied from the January 2016 lows. But only Palladium didn't get crushed again in the 2nd half of 2016 and into 2018.
I've never bought Plat or Pall coins because they tend to have a huge premium to their metal value....unlike most gold and silver coins where premiums are as low as 0-3% to melt.
Agree, it is really difficult finding any dealer willing to sell platinum at a loss from the original purchase. The premium over spot are only getting bigger.
Holding on to my europium, tantalum and neodymium holdings in case the magnetic poles reverse.
Me thinks, This is a very educational thread for the newbies.
When platinum was high in price it was difficult for most people to afford anything other than a tenth ouncer (bigger premiums). Now, one can find greater value in full boats.
Look back on the pre 2004 ‘reverse proof’ uncirculated platinum eagles for clean beauty (which you are NOT going to easily find at spot).
Since at least 1980, platinum has never been so cheap relative to gold. Or, gold has never been so expensive relative to platinum.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Platinum is a boring metal. It’s dull gray like distressed silver and kind of heavy. It works really well in batteries and catalytic converters, but who looks for beauty in them? It also makes for a durable mounting for diamonds in rings, but it’s still boring. Gold and even copper are far more interesting.