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1875-s $20 Liberty gold PCGS MS62 OH**Update
Chessman
Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭
Someone from Pennsylvania advertised in Coin World 2 times selling an 1875-s $20 Liberty gold PCGS MS62 OH. I sent him a bank check, he kept the coin. I exhausted my legal remedies on this, just thought I would post here since it is not that common a coin in case someone saw it, but it was a while ago.
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Both are issues for sure but they are very different issues!
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Stuff like this makes me
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
You even got a judgement on it but it can't be executed.
I think you need to get your lawyer to pursue collection further (like calling this guy on the phone and threatening him with jail) if that is even possible. Then if not see if you can take it as a tax writeoff.
<< <i>Do you have a photo or cert # of the coin? >>
Hmmm, with this line of thinking...could the coin be considered stolen property? You bought the coin from the seller by paying him for it and then he stole it from you and sold it to someone else....all assuming you were the first person he sold the coin to I guess.
If he has a PAID FOR $10K Car for instance...can you go after his car? He could sell his car, give you your money and buy a cheaper car for instance...IDK but I have to think that there is some type of recourse.
If there is a judgement in your favor and he does not pay...can you get him tossed in jail?...which would encourage him to FIND THE MONEY he owes. Without paying, I hope you at least go after his credit report as a debtor. Credit companies do not like people that owe thousands of dollars and do not pay. There must be ways to put the screws to this guy!!!....but it also might take a Private Investigator to figure out the BEST WAY!
Does he have kids/family/living parents?...track them down and spread the word about his deadbeat illegal activities? The truth can really hurt and put the screws to some people and encourage them to PAY UP!
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<< <i>I worked through the lawyer, the guy apparently was living in subsidized housing on SSI. The lawyer did not believe I had remedies except for getting a sheriff to execute a search of his apartment, which he thought would be wasting more money. Coin World said they could not do anything. The postal inspectors were given the evidence including the judgment for $3500 plus lawyer and court costs, and I have not heard from them. I actually went to the guy's residence once banged on his door and spoke to his neighbors who had no idea the guy was a crook. I will try to dig out the copy of the contract from him which has the PCGS cert. number and a rough picture of the coin when I have a chance. I should have done this a while ago. >>
Wow, you have done a lot! How much would it cost to have the sheriff execute a search of his apartment? I wonder if while doing that search, any assets of value could be NOTED so as to have the judge force their sale to raise funds? I say...if you can't get the coin/money then at least put him through absolute hell so that he thinks twice about doing this to ANYONE else.
Good luck and keep us in the loop. Be sure to post the coin cert number etc...Put it in your PCGS Registry set so that if anyone else tries to add it to their set you will get notified and might be able to track the coin down with the help of PCGS and Law Enforcement.
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PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Commems and Early Type
You can deduct it from your taxes as bad debt. But that's hardly getting your money back.
If the guy's on SSI he's got a fairly serious disability, and has met a very strict means test. You have to be pretty poor, with little to no income and assets., to qualify for Supplemental Security Income. If you feel vengeful you could report the $3500 you sent him to the Social Security Administration. That would pretty much disqualify him from benefits for the quarter year in which he rec'd your check, and SSA would go after him for the overpayment they made. (A very long time ago I was a Program Specialist for SSA and dealt with this a lot.)
Lance.
<< <i>It was an 1875-s, sorry for the typo. It was offered at $3500. I sent the money he cashed the check. He is on disability. I hired a lawyer for around $600, we got the judgment against him. He had sent me a contract with a copy of his driver's license which he signed. We could not execute the judgment because of his ss disability. As the court date approached, he got scared contacted my lawyer and offered $20 a month or so. I rejected that as insulting. So if he sold the coin for cash as in many similar circumstances, "fraudulent conveyance" I think they call it, what recourse do I have? >>
Did you make a police report? That type of scam is a 5 year felony in my neck of the woods...
In a couple of postings, people have suggested that you threaten to have him locked up or have the police arrest him.
Use caution, because even if you DO intend to file criminal charges, such verbage may be an illegal threat.
I have been in a similar situation and my attorney cautioned me strongly: "You can threaten to sue the SOB, but you cannot threaten to have him arrested." (In the county where all this happened, people often get arrested for these threats. They are often charged with making 'terroristic threats'.)
The locale may make a great deal of difference on how your language might be perceived.
All of my coins are secure in a bank safe-deposit box.
Seriously?
After 13 years?
The ship sailed along time ago. At this point I think it's absolutely, unquestionably hopeless.
I believe it is 2009.
Since it has now been four years, sadly I'd say that it is water over the dam. It is good to get this person's name in the public doman so that others will get cheated in a similar scam.
Not that it makes a bit of difference.
Frankly, any dealer you do business with can run into trouble whether financial, drugs, money laundering, health issues, etc. In fact I had one of my coin shipments seized by the FEDs because it went to a Maryland dealer they were investigating. I got 80% payment on that one. One dealer from the 1970's got me for $900 and had his secretary tell me he just suffered a heart attack. Shortly thereafter their phone line went dead....lol. That fiasco was a via a Coin World mail bid sale. No wonder many collectors are very fussy on who they buy from....even if it costs more. The return of your money may be more important than the return on your money.
Wow. That really sucks. Sorry to hear it.
You can deduct it from your taxes as bad debt. But that's hardly getting your money back.
If the guy's on SSI he's got a fairly serious disability, and has met a very strict means test. You have to be pretty poor, with little to no income and assets., to qualify for Supplemental Security Income. If you feel vengeful you could report the $3500 you sent him to the Social Security Administration. That would pretty much disqualify him from benefits for the quarter year in which he rec'd your check, and SSA would go after him for the overpayment they made. (A very long time ago I was a Program Specialist for SSA and dealt with this a lot.)
Lance.
It's not all that hard to get SSI depending upon the state and a number of other factors...in my job I see a lot of able bodied young adults on SSI...fraudulently....shamelessly milking Uncle Sam for all he's worth for as long as possible.
Of course it is great for the deserving.
Sickening, I hate story's like this !!!
I would say this case is over, and sadly, with a negative outcome. Although most coin transactions go well, the bad one's get the press here on the forum. I have no idea what percentage are good/bad... though I suspect the good ones are the vast majority. Still, it is good to post the bad one's so that we all exercise caution when buying from auctions or other mail/electronic venues. Cheers, RickO
Wow, so if you are poor or disabled, you can legally steal. That's pretty pathetic.
I know it's slim but was going after Coin World legally for advertising a fraudulent listing a viable recourse?
I think not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Whew this reads like a letter to Santa
Figured so much
I'm sorry for the op's problem.
Reading your post about seizing the sellers assets I was reminded by the scene in the movie A CIVIL ACTION.
A highly successful lawyer loses everything taking on one case and is now in bankruptcy court.
Bankruptcy Judge : Mr. Schlichtmann? Mr. Schlichtmann?
Jan Schlichtmann : I'm sorry. Yes.
Bankruptcy Judge : The purpose of these questions is not to embarass or humiliate you but rather to verify the information you've declared as your assets.
Jan Schlichtmann : I understand.
Bankruptcy Judge : Because what you're asking your creditors to believe with this petition is... well, it's hard to believe.
Jan Schlichtmann : I know.
Bankruptcy Judge : That after 17 years of practising law all you have to show for it is 14 dollars in a checking account a portable radio?
Jan Schlichtmann : That's correct.
Bankruptcy Judge : Where did it all go?
Jan Schlichtmann : The money?
Bankruptcy Judge : The money, the property, the personal belongings, the things one acquires in one's life, Mr. Schlichtmann. The things by which one measures one's life. What happened?
Wow, what a drag. $3,500? Sounds like your hands are tied to some degree. What a shame. I'm confused what SS disability has to do with executing a court judgment. Have never head of that. Strange.
I had an eBay deal go bad just once. This was pre-PayPal days, where you commonly paid with a personal check. A long time Seller just went bad. I'd purchased numerous coins from him over the years, and I had his home address. This was a ~$600 transaction. No response from him for about 60 days, as I watched his eBay feedback fill up with 40-50 NEGS. Gulp.
Long story short, I mailed him a certified letter saying I was a traveling salesman (lie), and that I would be in Maryland next month (lie)....said I'm be visiting him one evening unannounced (lie), and we could settle this 'man-to-man (lie)'.
The coin arrived 3 days later, via Fed Express.
Dave
The fact that you notified HA by "filing online a lost/stolen report on their site" and they still sold your coin is troubling. I would have thought HA would be more interested in helping to prevent theft in our hobby, and their excuse "It’s a civil dispute" sounds like something a shady pawn shop owner would say. Differentiating between a civil theft and a criminal theft is a cop out and doesn't change the fact that you were robbed. Morally HA should have flagged the PCGS cert number as soon as you notified them.
Too late now, but it reflects poorly on HA.
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