How do you reconcile a fairly large number of + coins not getting a CAC?
washingtonrainbows
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Let’s PLEASE keep this civil. Having looked at many registry set as well as discussions with others it’s fairly obvious that a lot of high end coins PER the grade given by NGC orPCGS do not CAC. I don’t understand how world class graders at 3 different organizations fail to agree that often. I would expect an occasional + coin not getting a CAC but the frequency is rather alarming. Who’s right who is wrong. A group of 3 graders and a finalyzer call a coin a + but a world renowned expert deems it not CAC worthy. This is an important issue for collecting since a CAC sticker can and often does bring a premium price. The frequency of + coins that don’t CAC is alarming to me . Can someone intelligently explain this and leave the emotional comments out.
Comments
I imagine it has something to do with a difference of opinion between graders. Since there are no standards, what each group values in a coin is a bit different. I really don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.
If 3, or even 2, services agreed all or most of the time, you would only need 1 of them.
Also, perhaps the standards are different such as identifying doctored gold.
What is the frequency of CAC coins that don’t Plus?
I would think CAC factors in the + and it would be harder for the + coin to sticker. It already has a + anyway.
CAC says they don’t factor in the Plus.
A - I believe it's two graders and a verifier at PCGS. At CAC it's one grader and JA.
B - If you are currently alarmed, you have not been paying attention for a long long time.
Clearly a difference in grading standards.
Looser or tighter can be better or worse depending on the series, its niche supporters' standards and your own. Or whether or not the grader had great sex last night or trouble getting his kids to school this morning.
As a longtime submitter, a plus means the coin is less likely to downgrade.
When CCE changed the rules for + coin buying (all + coins automatically must be purchased at SUS money), Coinplex came into being because CAC wouldn't buy them "blindly",
Remember, CAC only accepts integers, not fractionated grades, so plusses are totally ignored
Retailers like pluses; people who can't grade likely need them. People who can grade are numismatically cherry-picking. Bravo!
A case in point: MS65+ Saints. Yuck,
I did not know that. Learn something every day. Hard to imagine they would ignore what many collectors equate to 1/2 point. Thanks for pointing that out.
As boring as this sounds,I feel there is no definite answer to your question. The only definite is free advertising when questions about this company comes up.
It would be great if the TPGs and CAC could agree to renumber to the 100 grades collectors have to deal with today.
See the full list here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1015887/the-100-point-grading-scale-in-use-today#latest
I have had more luck with NGC star coins. Both of mine have beaned, then crossed, then beaned again. On the + coins for both services I am batting around 50% for half a dozen. Clearly this shows that CAC is looking at different factors than the TPG's as noted, they don't factor in the plus as stated above and somewhere by JA. CAC focuses alot on surfaces and whether there is any intentional human intervention. TPG's? I don't know as they have never told me why they put a grade on a holder. CAC has told me why some of my coins have not beaned, and in every cases, it was the intentional human intervention with comments like 'cleaned a long time ago', 'spot removal' etc.
Best, SH
In my interest there seem to be quite a few + coins that have been beaned. Quick search found these
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1942-D-NGC-MS67-FB-CAC-Full-Split-Bands-Mercury-Dime/233036055269?epid=170384445&hash=item36420802e5:g:IWMAAOSw8W1blnWS
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1943-D-MERCURY-DIME-10C-NGC-CAC-CERTIFIED-MS67-MINT-UNC-FB-FULL-BANDS-001/372670162978?epid=170408584&hash=item56c4df6822:g:O2sAAOSwAJRc2waw:sc:USPSFirstClass!45036!US!-1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-D-PCGS-MS-67-FB-CAC-MERCURY-DIME-SOLID-STRIKE-BOOMING-LUSTER-GOLDEN-GEM/223488463136?epid=170389974&hash=item3408f35120:g:yGkAAOSw-olaJmCn
What is the average review time for a coin at one of the TPGS? Maybe 30 seconds maximum? DKFS.
What is the average review time for a coin at CAC? Maybe much more than 30 seconds? DKFS.
Could possibly explain why limited CAC for plus grades?
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I remember, a year or two after CAC first opened, having lunch with JA and bringing up the issue of internal consistency. I told him I felt good if I was consistent with myself about 90% of the time on coins I liked, maybe 98% on coins I wouldn't.
"accept". Consequently, on coins I liked, expect 10% dilution from each grader and we'll agree 80% of the time. Been way too long since I was familiar with grading room internal dialogues and stats. but the old paradigm of a really good grader hitting 75% consensus likely still obtains.
The smaller the group, the greater the influence of "groupthink", AKA "consistency"
CAC has had AFAIK the same team of four graders for a decade. Expect less variability, especially on coins with more stringent restrictions on initial acceptability.
IMO, a + is often a cop-out as it is used too frequently. It has almost become a separate grade to itself.
When I started collecting, knowledgeable dealers who were not over grading were using the + sign to ID coins at the top half of a grade. I cannot draw a chart but let's imagine that each grade was divided from 1 to 10. Coins within that grade received a plus when they were in the 6-10 space. An "11" did not exist as this was the "1" in the next grade.
When the "Technical Grading System" was developed, I only used the + for coins that were at the "10" position of the grade bracket. These were the coins that might be considered the other grade higher by some graders - the liners. It added more precision to the grades we assigned.
If the TPGS's tightened the amount of the grading bracket used for the plus (as we did back in the early 1970's!), I think more coin's with a + would CAC.
Would Ignore unless your buying low end stuff sight unseen. It’s a matter of taste in my view possibly one more skewed towards toners. I would review ones which did not see if I agree C coins.
The plus coins are worth the TPG prem pct over the non plus. The CAC coins I price markup factor x CAC CDN bid. The non CAC coins I price markup up factor x CDN bid (non CAC). Plus coins the prem pct (per TPG values) added to the markup equation both.
I am not CAC submitter (would go broke lol) so a moot issue for me.
Grading is an opinion, nothing more.
I'm 1 for 3 on getting + holders to sticker.
I can tell you I have had the best luck with the ngc gold stamped reverse holders going 9/9 with 2 of those being gold beaned.
In this hobby as well as life I don’t sweat the stuff I can’t control. If it did bother me I’d find another hobby in a NY minute
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Isn't a big limiting factor that a + coin has to be submitted to CAC? Not all + coins, or for that matter any graded coins get sent to CAC.
So your original supposition might be modified to say "of those + coins submitted to CAC why do so many not get the bean?"
Since sending coins to CAC for a bean seems to be the thing one might do prior to selling (expecting the cost of seeking the bean to justify a higher asking price), is it possible some of the registry sets you have viewed are owned by collectors like me who are collecting for themselves, and not necessarily to sell anytime soon? I have several registry sets, and a few + coins, but coin collecting is purely a hobby for me and I don't have any present plans to sell. The registry just serves as a nice online database to store information. More likely than not, my coins (along with a bunch of other items I have accumulated over the years) will be sold when I die 30 - 40 years from now. I suspect in 30-40 years the current collector add ons (beans, plastic) will have been replaced by the latest and greatest trends of the 2050s. While some of the coins in my collection display the all important bean, it has never crossed my mind to actually send a coin to CAC.
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Plus grades are tough to get for small submitters; my guess is that those who send in 50 coins on invoices, a large group of around gem coins are more likely to get the +. So HA, Rarcoa, Apmex and other major players are more likely to get the plus as an incentive to send to PCGS. CAC is very picky on MS65 and above type gold which are big money grades. It costs them a lot to stand behind an MS65 $20 Lib. or an MS66 Saint, just look at the cac/non cac spreads.
I think it's impossible to have this conversation without knowing how many + coins have been seen and subsequently not gotten a bean, information that only CAC has. However it is my feeling that the + grade is handed out far to often to baggy coins that are luster bombs, perhaps that could account for the difference in opinion.
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On the plus grades that I have done well on have orginal surface with nice eye appeal. If the plus grade is for techinal merits and average eye appeal, I do not do well in getting a sticker.
Here are some options:
1- They have different standards.
2- Plus coins are, in my experience, more likely to have been color bumped to begin with.
It doesn't. CAC treats MS67 and MS67+ as equivalent.
Don't care.
And here is why... a coin speaks for itself. If a graded coin receives a plus that should reflect that a coin was deemed to have a special quality that separated it from others at that grade level. That result within the spectrum of the subjective component associated with grading should be enough. Truly enough to satisfy collectors that seem to be unsatisfied unless there is someone somewhere that will confirm a subjective opinion as if grading where a math problem. I have no answer to those that seem unwilling to accept TPG other than to take responsibility for your decisions and understand and appreciate how grading works for those coin series you choose to collect.
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SURFACES. That's it in a single word. A couple have mentioned it already. This is especially true for gold coins where CAC mostly demands original surfaces on choice/gem gold. They don't care about a few extra stray marks or a some pretty toning. If the surfaces aren't right to them, all the + signs in the world won't help you. An over-dipped technical 64++ coin with a monster strike? That won't CAC even if the market prices that coin at around 65 money.
Coins often get the + designation for reasons other than purely original and pleasing surfaces. It can be a bit more luster blast, prettier toning, a sharper strike, or a few less marks.......with no requirement to have original and appealing underlying surfaces. You could have the same 64+ coin put into a 64- holder if there were one....CAC still wouldn't sticker it. I'd give CJ props for his "step grading" note too. 64-, 64, 64+....CAC doesn't care which. They'll sticker any of them if they love the surfaces and everything else lines up too.
A thought:
Think of a 64+. Not a MONSTER grade, but in the range of the average collector grades.
Some assume that a "64+" coin is a coin of 64 grade that is just a little bit better, for some reason. Not enough for the next grade, but better than a standard 64.
Could it not also be a coin that would normally be a 65, but has a small issue. (One bad mark, muted luster, weaker than normal strike, whatever). So instead of 65, they call it 64+.
That might SEEM like two ways of looking at the same coin. (Glass half full vs. half empty).
But really, isn't it saying the SECOND coin has an ISSUE. And CAC is really not in the grading business. They are in the business of steering a buyer away from issues, and to fully wholesome coins.
So, that "bumped down" 64+ won't CAC, while the "bumped up" coin might. So maybe it isn't surprising that + coins don't CAC any more frequently than "non +" coins?
Suggesting the + really isn't all that important. It has already been stated that's the case for CAC, so maybe WE shouldn't care about the + either. As always....it's the coin that matters.
Just use all this grading and sticker stuff as a way to rank coins and it provides a pretty good starting point. That is how I feel about all of it now days.
In the end you can label coins all you want and the labels will change with time... but the best are still the best. You just need to view a lot of coins to know.
Pretty simple really
Both the CAC and the TPGs are right, in their own way. They are subjective opinions, after all.
It comes as no surprise to me there is a difference of opinion. To the contrary, a consensus would be surprising.
It is the nature of the beast called coin grading, which is an approximate at best attempt at ranking and pricing coins.
For this collector, at least, it's more about the coin (and the price) and less about the slab or the sticker.
Remember CAC ignores the + grade, so if your MS64+ coin doesn't sticker they don't see it as even being a MS64.
RE: "How do you reconcile a fairly large number of + coins not getting a CAC?"
You don't. The two are separate assessments made by different parties for different purposes. Further, you do not have a complete data set so any attempt at statistical analysis is invalid.
How about collecting coins instead of labels and silly stickers...?
This is an over-interpretation, read their criteria on their website. This would only mean that they don't see it as an A or B coin in 64.
That is not true...it means it’s properly graded but not strong for the grade, in their opinion. It does not mean it’s over graded as you suggest.
Actually, in the absence of additional information, you don’t know what it means. It could be that CAC thinks the coin is properly graded, but not solid for the grade. Or they could think the coin is over-graded or that it has a problem and should have received a details grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't think it is a question about three things, PCGS/NGC/CAC, I think it is a question about one thing, CAC. that seems to be what the OP is asking, to wit: Why do so many PCGS and NGC coins with a plus(+) not receive the sticker when sent to CAC? to my way of think it seems the Hobby has entrusted too much power with one entity, CAC.
it has been clear for a long time that PCGS and NGC don't see eye-to-eye on grading. prior to CAC the difference in the two was simple: to generalize, an NGC coin was viewed as being one point higher than PCGS and priced accordingly, but now CAC is the great leveler of the grading playing field. if they have placed a sticker on a coin with a specific grade the two services are supposed to be equal.
I don't get involved in any of it and if I understand what others who do get involved are saying the PCGS coin is still seen as better.
it is peculiar and dumbfounding for me. in the end we all have to look at the subject coin absent all the inserts and stickers, arrive at a grade based price and make a decision. I need a nap or another cup of coffee after typing this answer.
There are endless hypotheticals Mark, but the only information you or I have is what they post on their website as to their services. What a bean means etc., a blanket statement that no bean means over graded is not consistent with available information.
The very question posits the notion that most "+" graded coins have even been to CAC, which I consider to be quite the assumption.
As has been stated several times in this thread, and as I have stated many times in other threads, there are no grading standards... only opinions. Therefore, there will always be controversy and what appear to be contradictions between grading authorities. Just as in art or beauty, opinions vary. Until standards are developed and incorporated into AI based computer grading, there will be questions such as the OP.... The coin market is focused on grading and stickers....premiums for these features drive the quest for profit. Colorful tarnish, green/gold stickers, old slabs that may upgrade due to shifting opinions.....The business of coin selling is growing...much to the detriment of the hobby. Cheers, RickO
My choice for answer is comment from Bryce M. Seems to be a very complex and subjective issue.
Any CAC submission like taking a car(s) off the lot - sending to mod shop - planning for higher price if accepted by buyer. My view would be is overall goal (higher profit) realized based on expense?
There are 2 variables 1. Will coin CAC. 2. Is there a buyer who will pay the higher ask price (based on CAC bid in the sheet) because it’s CAC. I would suppose if you have a box of big ticket coins and the CAC bid is say 50 pct higher on most any hit (coin cacd) should be a homer. However you have to find buyer who will pay that extra money