Pop 1 DeepCam 1965 Penny go's unsold

Thor11 · May 2, 2019 11:31AM

The only example of a MS64 DCAM cent has been available off eBay for a few weeks .There is only one other DCAM in any grade

ChrisH821 · May 2, 2019 11:47AM

And how much were they asking?

cmerlo1 · May 2, 2019 11:52AM

Probably because the chances of making a better one are high, considering the number of 1965 SMS sets out there.

yspsales · May 2, 2019 12:07PM

The sellers pics did not help at all.

A pop 1 should have a true view.

Value... maybe $200 since no interest first time around?

Cameonut · May 2, 2019 2:06PM

PCGS does not bestow a cameo designation on SMS cents very often. Less so for a dcam.
The coin in question has a very weak reverse for a dcam.

291fifth · May 2, 2019 2:40PM

Supply and demand. No demand at that price level. Why would anyone pay much of a premium for any 1965 SMS cent? It sounds like the type of item that only cherry-pickers are interested in ... and they cherry-pick ... they don't pay premiums.

BillJones · May 2, 2019 2:48PM

@cmerlo1 said:
Probably because the chances of making a better one are high, considering the number of 1965 SMS sets out there.

There might not be that many. The 1965 SMS coins were quite ugly for the most part. When I was YN a dealer told me to never cut those coins out of the mint cello pack because most people couldn't tell the difference between the SMS coins and the business strikes.

coinbuf · May 2, 2019 2:51PM

There is a buyer for every coin at some price; however, quite a small thin market for this type of coin does not often equal big dollars.

Tunis · May 2, 2019 3:13PM

Hansen’s cent is not DCAM......

ModCrewman · May 2, 2019 3:20PM

I don't recall coming across that coin on Ebay; but I can tell you that in 8 years of hardcore searching for cameos, I've come across less than a handful of 1965 Lincolns that even have a shot at a CAM designation. Any CAM SMS Lincoln is a significant rarity, any DCAM SMS Lincoln is a seriously rare coin, a DCAM 1965 would have to be virtually nonexistent.

This is the closest I've come SP66 RD:

ChrisH821 · May 2, 2019 3:24PM

@ModCrewman said:
This is the closest I've come SP66 RD:

Hey me too..

SanctionII · May 2, 2019 3:38PM

Nah.

1965 DCAM SMS Cents?

They are very common and are available by the truckload.

Everytime I go to a coin show and look at 1965 SMS sets I find at least one or two cents that would DCAM upon submitting them.

ChrisH821 · May 2, 2019 3:40PM

@SanctionII said:
Nah.

1965 DCAM SMS Cents?

They are very common and are available by the truckload.

Everytime I go to a coin show and look at 1965 SMS sets I find at least one or two cents that would DCAM upon submitting them.

Want to pick one up for me next time? I'll give you $20 for it

SanctionII · May 2, 2019 3:44PM

Sure.

I will send you 10 of them after the next coin show. All 10 coins will be DCAM (according to my personal grading standards; though I do not slab coins and do not offer any grade guaranty).

Just send me your $200.00 in advance.

oih82w8 · May 2, 2019 3:48PM

SMS CAM Lincoln Cents are pretty hard to obtain. Mostly the seller wants quite a bit more than "trends". I have been looking for a 1967 SMS Lincoln in 66 or 67 CAM...just not willing to pay for it.

Cameonut · May 2, 2019 3:50PM

If that seller offered a return privilege, I would have bought that coin at that price level and would have been happy if it truly was a dcam. I think the obverse looks great, but the reverse is lacking for the designation.

ChrisH821 · May 2, 2019 4:40PM

This one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-PCGS-DCAM-MS64RD-SMS-Lincoln-Memorial-cent-RED/183783100140?hash=item2aca538eec:g:8doAAOSwU4FcqRAM

amwldcoin · May 2, 2019 4:52PM

Looks like the sellers from your neck of the woods. Perhaps you know him or could arrange a look at it?

@Cameonut said:
If that seller offered a return privilege, I would have bought that coin at that price level and would have been happy if it truly was a dcam. I think the obverse looks great, but the reverse is lacking for the designation.

ricko · May 2, 2019 5:04PM

Nice looking cent... actually, very nice... but that price is beyond reasonable, for me. Cheers, RickO

Unknown · May 2, 2019 6:27PM

This content has been removed.

keets · May 3, 2019 3:44AM

Probably because the chances of making a better one are high, considering the number of 1965 SMS sets out there.

this is just an incorrect statement probably not based on actually looking for such a coin, more of a numbers assessment. it's the same logic that says true Deep Cameo Jefferson Nickels from the 1950's are easily found because there were so many sets produced..........................yet the (n)ever increasing PCGS pop report suggests otherwise.

in truth, all of the 1965-1967 SMS/SP issues are prohibitively scarce in true Deep Cameo grades despite the large production numbers. looking at the pop report reveals that 1965 is the worst year for all denominations, especially the Lincoln Cent. I doubt there will ever be more than a handful.

cmerlo1 · May 3, 2019 6:27AM

@keets said:
Probably because the chances of making a better one are high, considering the number of 1965 SMS sets out there.

this is just an incorrect statement probably not based on actually looking for such a coin, more of a numbers assessment. it's the same logic that says true Deep Cameo Jefferson Nickels from the 1950's are easily found because there were so many sets produced..........................yet the (n)ever increasing PCGS pop report suggests otherwise.

in truth, all of the 1965-1967 SMS/SP issues are prohibitively scarce in true Deep Cameo grades despite the large production numbers. looking at the pop report reveals that 1965 is the worst year for all denominations, especially the Lincoln Cent. I doubt there will ever be more than a handful.

I'm the one who said that. Here's why:

I have a hard time believing that with 2.3 million sets made and only a very small fraction of those cents submitted for grading that there isn't at least one 65 DCAM out there somewhere. The pops only reflect what was submitted, and that's a very small fraction of what is still out there, still in mint packaging, sitting in dealer stock, collections, and accumulations.

Edited to add: Even if collectors have examined half of the total mintage, looking specifically for DCAM coins, there are still 1.15 million sets not yet examined.

keets · May 3, 2019 7:04AM

I understand and accept your reasoning, it is correct to think like that. it is also correct to think that since so much time has passed with so many looking for these coins that it is reasonable to presume that they don't exist.

your argument will always win out because it is impossible to prove the negative(short of having every set on my desk to search). yet we will all continue to search in the face of long odds. also, I am not taking exception with the idea that there may indeed be some as yet undiscovered Deep Cameo 1965 SMS Lincoln Cents, only with the belief that the chances of making a better one are high because time has proved that the chances are not high.

I hope some of the others who have responded so far will offer up more of what their searching tells them. what does it tell me: on average, 1965 SMS Lincoln Cents will grade SP65RD/66RD with maybe a few hundred grading RD Cameo. I seriously doubt there will ever be 10 coins that grade RD Deep Cameo............................and time is running out.

I will add that the discussion coin is even doubted to be a two sided DC, though the obverse seems a lock.

jmlanzaf · May 3, 2019 7:48AM

@cmerlo1 said:

@keets said:
Probably because the chances of making a better one are high, considering the number of 1965 SMS sets out there.

this is just an incorrect statement probably not based on actually looking for such a coin, more of a numbers assessment. it's the same logic that says true Deep Cameo Jefferson Nickels from the 1950's are easily found because there were so many sets produced..........................yet the (n)ever increasing PCGS pop report suggests otherwise.

in truth, all of the 1965-1967 SMS/SP issues are prohibitively scarce in true Deep Cameo grades despite the large production numbers. looking at the pop report reveals that 1965 is the worst year for all denominations, especially the Lincoln Cent. I doubt there will ever be more than a handful.

I'm the one who said that. Here's why:

I have a hard time believing that with 2.3 million sets made and only a very small fraction of those cents submitted for grading that there isn't at least one 65 DCAM out there somewhere. The pops only reflect what was submitted, and that's a very small fraction of what is still out there, still in mint packaging, sitting in dealer stock, collections, and accumulations.

Edited to add: Even if collectors have examined half of the total mintage, looking specifically for DCAM coins, there are still 1.15 million sets not yet examined.

By your own logic, if half the sets have been searched and there's only a handful of CAM much less DCAM, then at most there are two handfuls.

And 30 years into the slabbing era when the only way to make any money on SMS sets is to find a "special" coin, I'd be willing to bet that more than half have been looked at.

The other thing to consider is that these are NOT proof strikes. You wouldn't expect to find many DCAM coins at all.

amwldcoin · May 3, 2019 8:05AM

With all the talk on how scarce 65 SMS's are I'm surprised I haven't gotten nibbles on this 1 and it been for sale for a lot less than that penny!

SanctionII · May 3, 2019 8:10AM

I have looked for Cameo and DCAM SMS coinage for about 20 years after returning to the hobby as an adult. During this time I have found some coins that have frosted devices that give the coins a Cameo look. However, most of the coins I have found that have frosted devices have fields that are not what I would consider adequately "mirrored", particularly the cents, dimes and quarters.

The 1965-1967 SMS cents that reside in my best SMS sets are very nice coins, but I think only the 1966 cent has a shot at receiving a CAM designation. It has fields that are deeply mirrored and frosted devices. The obverse frost is thick enough to warrant a CAM designation, however the reverse frost may not be good enough to warrant the designation.

My experience looking for Cameo and DCAM SMS cents in the wild is similar to my experience looking for 1957 Cameo and DCAM proof nickels. I have found only one 1957 proof nickel in the wild that would warrant a Cameo designation. 3 or 4 others I have found have some frost on the devices, but not enough to warrant the designation.

The point made by jmlanzaf above is very good, if half of the 1965 SMS sets have been searched and only a few DCAMs have been found therein, the remaining unsearched half of these sets would likely have the same number of DCAMs. I do not think that in the unsearched half of the sets there is a huge number of DCAMs just waiting to be discovered.

keets · May 3, 2019 9:22AM

** I'm surprised I haven't gotten nibbles on this**........................

I can suggest an answer: the reverse fields look cloudy and not sufficiently mirrored enough to warrant anything close to the sheet price. to that end, the 1965 Nickels often have nice, mirrored fields and nice frost, just not the two at the same time very often. on top of that the strikes are often weak and result in coins with poor step detail and ragged jawlines.

happily, the Mint improved during the next two years and when they resumed with Proofs they were nice. I think 1968 has some of the best frosted coins from the 60's.

Cameonut · May 3, 2019 11:16AM

** I'm surprised I haven't gotten nibbles on this 1**........................

I can suggest an answer: the reverse fields look cloudy and not sufficiently mirrored enough to warrant anything close to the sheet price. to that end, the 1965 Nickels often have nice, mirrored fields and nice frost, just not the two at the same time very often. on top of that the strikes are often weak and result in coins with poor step detail and ragged jawlines.

happily, the Mint improved during the next two years and when they resumed with Proofs they were nice. I think 1968 has some of the best frosted coins from the 60's.

I agree, the NGC example pictured doesn't really have the mirrors required to make cam at PCGS. In my opinion, PCGS is much tougher than NGC on SMS cameos from 1965-67.
For comparison, here is my 1966 SMS deep cameo nickel. (Sorry, don't have a TV of either of my 1965's) Note the deep mirrors and frosted devices. PCGS loves deep mirrors on their cameos in addition to frosty devices.

I have also looked at thousands of 1965-7 SMS sets. Finding a two sided cameo is a rare treat and is usually the nickel or half, sometimes the dime. Cameo cents and quarters are few and far between. Deep cameos are even tougher.

yspsales · May 3, 2019 3:17PM

Somebody bought it ..

ChrisH821 · May 3, 2019 4:46PM

@yspsales said:
Somebody bought it ..

Hopefully we'll see some better pictures here soon then.

Cameonut · May 8, 2019 11:17AM

As Paul Harvey used to say - "and that's the rest of the story".

I contacted the seller to find out if he would be at the Raleigh show this past weekend. He wasn't, but was willing to negotiate a deal.

Bottom line is that I took delivery on the coin today and have a return privilege which I don't think I will take advantage of at this point.
Some observations on the coin - cell phone photos below. The planchet had numerous little scratches and some haze. As struck there is also a hit on Abe's chin. Hence the 64 grade which I agree with. The debate will now come as to whether it is a dcam. The obverse photo below shows plenty of frost on the devices and deep mirrors. There is haze in the upper left. I'd normally call it a "just makes dcam" piece. The reverse has haze and chatter in the fields. As you rotate the coin under the light, it also seems to have deep mirrors. The devices are also nicely frosted. Note especially, the frost between the pillars.

So what would I grade it if sent in raw? I'd probably give it a cameo ++ or a dcam -. You get cameo some days and dcam on other days. I will probably keep it - if nothing more as an example of a dcam sms cent.

Bigbuck1975 · May 8, 2019 11:34AM

Dumb question here. Would it be worth sending that coin back in for conservation to attempt to remove some haze and reholder with trueview?

I assume if conserved it would be graded as raw so probably not a worthwhile gamble?

ModCrewman · May 8, 2019 2:13PM

Congrats Cameonut. Neat coin.

SanctionII · May 8, 2019 3:51PM

The newest photo of the coin shows frost that likely is good enough for a DCAM designation. Again the fields are what would make a DCAM designation on a crossover attempt iffy.

Nice pick up. I would enjoy seeing this SMS cent in hand.

amwldcoin · May 8, 2019 4:41PM

LOL!

RogerB · May 8, 2019 4:44PM

A 'hit" is not "as struck."

Good detail on the reverse. Cannot evaluation for PL from the photo.

Cameonut · May 8, 2019 5:29PM

@RogerB said:
A 'hit" is not "as struck."

Good detail on the reverse. Cannot evaluation for PL from the photo.

Agreed, I don't think that is what I wrote, but I may not have been perfectly clear in my description. The dies were likely new or near new, and the planchet was below average for an SMS coin as it had lots of small scratches that were likely there before striking. The hit on the chin happened after striking.
In any event, an interesting coin, I am glad I took the advice of @amwldcoin and contacted the seller.

MarkJude · November 19, 2019 6:03PM

It's nice to see a discussion on a SMS coin.
Personally, I wonder what it would be like to find a dream coin like a 1965 Lincoln in 67DCAM.
I own a 1965 in 66CAM and 67CAM and those coins are beautiful but just not good enough for that coveted DCAM designation.
Maybe someday I'll find that unopened envelope that contains a little bit of history.
Mark

Pop 1 DeepCam 1965 Penny go's unsold

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