How to create an AT coin

Iwog · November 29, 2002 2:13PM

I've had enough of this nonsense. No one can identify a good AT coin from a NT example. Anyone who claims this should put up a large sum of money for a controlled test and bring the coin doctors out of the closet.

Sadly this will never happen. Toning elitists will continue to claim they can see something you cannot because they know that evidence either way will never be forthcoming. Creating an oxidation layer on a silver coin is extremely easy, and it's the pattern of oxidation that is difficult but attainable.

So to help destroy the myth about "natural toning" I am sharing a method that works. I have no interest in doctoring coins, but I have a vested interest in seeing this absurd market bubble break. Therefore I will give a simple recipe for creating a certifiable tab toned commemorative coin that will pass any certification service. It's quite easy to do and will increase the sale price by thousands. Please don't commit fraud using this process, but if you do, have some ethics and only sell them to dealers who say they can identify any artificially toned coin.

#1 Purchase an original tab holder on ebay. They are generally pretty easy to come by. Example

#2 Saturate the holder with silver powder. This is the same method that silver box makers use to protect silverware with, although they use felt. The idea here is to keep the covered areas of the coin untarnished.

#3 Clamp an original undipped commem (preferably from an original roll) firmly in the middle of the round part leaving the track around the edge of the coin exposed. The trick here is to protect the center from oxidation and since you'll be speeding up the process, you need a tight fit.

#4 expose the entire package to hydrogen sulfide gas. You can get this from gunpowder, match heads, rotton eggs, etc. The guy I watched do this put a very light patina on a Roanoke and slapped about $5000 onto the sales price. For some reason, dark tab toned commems sell almost as well as the pretty ones do. (Hint: applying oxidation over a few weeks works far better than trying to do it quickly)

Here's a genuine naturally tab toned commem that recently sold for an absurd amount of money so you can see what it should look like when finished. Example It realized almost $18,000 for a coin that could be bought brilliant for a few bills. As you can see, it's quite ugly but the buyer apparently wanted originality at any cost. Why? Dunno.......there's no way to distinguish between AT and NT coins unless you get lucky with an old holder.

LucyBop · November 29, 2002 2:24PM

Amatuer! The real secret is to buy a diffusion furnace, or maybe two, both a Chemical Vapor Deposition and an Atmospheric. On the CVD furnace one can add a nice uniform layer of polysilicon or nitride to beautifully tone your silver coins. and since you can control, temp, time and pressure you can control your deposition rate and get any spectrum of coloring that is completely natural and undetectable... For those stubborn coppers, we turn to the atmospheric furnace, and grow a slight layer of a high quality oxide at a slow rate, cause one has to remember that a grown oxide consumers its underlying surface as well as growing upwards....... Ok, enough of the revealing the biggest trade secrets, man this Margarita is good.

bennybravo · November 29, 2002 2:50PM

Here we go.

TomB · November 29, 2002 3:15PM

I'll just mention one thing right here, and that has to do with step four-

<< #4 expose the entire package to silver sulfide gas. You can get this from gunpowder, match heads, rotton eggs, etc. >>

You may want to expose it to a sulfide gas, however, I doubt you will obtain a silver sulfide gas from rotten eggs.

Iwog · November 29, 2002 3:16PM

Yeah, I screwed up. Hydrogen sulfide gas is what you want. Silver sulfide isn't a gas. Editing for error.

LucyBop · November 29, 2002 3:33PM

an atmo furnace with Hydrogen or h2 has to be properly mixed with 02 which then results in h20, a wet form of oxide growth which would not look natural and is of a lower quality and grows relatively fast, a dry oxide with heat and o2 and an added solvent such as tca or dce to remove impurities is the way to go Daddy-o, also, an n2 enviroment prior to temp up and growth is critical so one can avoid low quality native oxides, the more sophisticated systems use a pump to pump down the mini enviroment freeing all the area of 02 and creat a rich n2 inert enviroment... But I think I've said too much already...

jom · November 29, 2002 3:35PM

Nice post IWOG. Although, I certainly don't hold the distain you have of toned coins I do agree the "bubble" is rather idiotic. But, then again, people do what they want to do. In fact, this "bubble" is no different that the high prices being paid for super-grade coins. It's the same idea you bring up: Not many people can tell the difference between 66 and 67 (like your analogy of AT vs NT) but yet pay huge sums of dough. Go figure but that is what makes life itself so interesting, no?

As for AT vs NT: I've said this many times: the subject is over-blown. I, for one, don't really give a damn because the "doctors" are getting so good at it the definition of AT is being more and more blurred as time goes on. If I like a coin for the price I buy it, if not I don't. What slab it's in or who graded it or what color the slab label is or what grade it is is irrelevant once I decide on a price to pay. Simple really...

jom

dragon · November 29, 2002 5:04PM

Hey, wait a minute.......is this the same Iwog who 8 months ago refused to post pics of coins he claimed were AT'd (via firsthand knowledge) and were in PCGS holders due to being afraid of exposing a coin doctors work and being sued..........and now he is publicly posting detailed instructions for how to artificially tab tone coins, supposedly deceive PCGS, make thousands of dollars, and dupe unsuspecting dealers in the process??

Also, since as you claim:

" it's quite easy to do and will increase the sale price by thousands. Please don't commit fraud using this process, but if you do, have some ethics and only sell them to dealers who say they can identify any artificially toned coin."

would you mind getting the ball rolling and post pics of a few untoned comemms, apply your easy process (then post the 'after' pics) and get them all in PCGS holders, and sell them to dealers for THOUSANDS of dollars???

dragon

CarlWohlforth · November 29, 2002 11:36PM

Hey Dragon, it sounds like you are asking the wrong person. Perhaps the Hep Kitty herself can bake us a few toners. I'd be happy to donate some Jeffersons if that process works on Nickels...

fantasiize · November 29, 2002 11:56PM

Carl,

I agree with you, it looks like the Hep Kitty could pass as the "Chief Mixologist" (to include the AT'ing and Margaritas) for this thread at this time (but I guess it is easy for me to say that as chemistry was not in my top 10 courses in school).

agentjim007 · November 29, 2002 11:58PM

Amatuer! The real secret is to buy a diffusion furnace, or maybe two, both a Chemical Vapor Deposition and an Atmospheric. On the CVD furnace one can add a nice uniform layer of polysilicon or nitride to beautifully tone your silver coins. and since you can control, temp, time and pressure you can control your deposition rate and get any spectrum of coloring that is completely natural and undeteckable... For those stubborn coppers, we turn to the atmospheric furnace, and grow a slight layer of a high quality oxide at a slow rate, cause one has to remember that a grown oxide consumers its underlying surface as well as growing upwards....... Ok, enough of the revealing the biggest trade secrets, man this Margarita is good.

Wow!!! LucyBop really knows how to sweet talk a guy...Keep drinking those Margarita's.

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 12:20AM

His technique is risky and a crap shoot as to a viable successrate and I would venture to guess one would wind up with more ruined coins then anything.

<< Creating an oxidation layer on a silver coin is extremely easy, and it's the pattern of oxidation that is difficult but attainable. >>

Any silver coin already has some type of oxidation on it, simply from the silver reacting with 02 and any oils such as sodium which is a contaminant from human sweat. A quick dip is required to remove 'some' of the native oxides in order to grow a clean and high quality oxide, but one has to be careful, the dip is a precrusor prior to oxide growth. Since oxide growth is affected by the layer it is growing on, the cleaner the surface the better, as trying to grow a quality oxide on native oxide is very diffulcult and amaturish at best. Unless this is occuring naturally over many years such as found in the Frankies in original mint sets from the 50s. These have taken many years of the coins reacting with the sulfur rich content of the cardboard where the coins reside. If one tried to dip all the oxide off of these type of coins they would ruin it since oxide also consumes as it grows. An oxide is a non-amphorus sub structure that can be predictable in a controlled enviroment with the proper equipment and proper chemical control, rather then using matches or rotten eggs.

The one thing I like about using quality tequila in my margaritas is I wake up the next day and never have a hangover...

MacCoin · November 30, 2002 12:37AM

thats the way teach these dealer another way to cheat old MacCoin on toned coins

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 12:41AM

<< I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling. >>

this is so true, on the VW New Beetle forum you can view your post before you upload it......

whoops another typo that needed to be corrected.

fantasiize · November 30, 2002 12:49AM

Wait a minute, I may have something here ... vinegar ... some baking soda ... look at all of those tiny little bubbles ...

pontiacinf · November 30, 2002 1:09AM

thanks IWOG

You ACCOMPLISHED what the supposed Doc's running their mouths (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) couldnt do. I dont wanna
create toned coins, just wanna know the process. Knowing can help one distinguish

PERIOD

thanks again IWOG

Iwog · November 30, 2002 3:56AM

Lucy, applying tab toning is very easy. There's very little chance of ruining the coin other than the obvious fact that tab toned commems are generally brown and ugly and ruined to begin with. As far as your explanation of how "natural" toning occurs, it is silly. I don't mean to offend you, but silver doesn't form oxides spontaneously in air and sulfur contained in paper isn't responsible for toning. It's clear you have no idea of the chemistry behind oxidation of silver.

Dragon, I could have written your response before you did. Nothing has changed and I will never reveal any coin not in my possession to be AT. (unless somehow I get brain damage) It's really non-sequitur to the process however so I'm not sure what you're complaining about. I'd be happy to tab tone a Kennedy half for you, just send me an original holder. I'll even post pictures.

Pontiac, tis my pleasure. I doubt however that a genuine tab toned coin can be distinguished from a fake. The toning is generally a cruddy brown or orange and the pattern is applied from an original holder. I'm sure making a rainbow Morgan is more difficult but I'm sure people are using something similar to do textile toning. Dunno, I really have no experience with AT beyond what I learned from an associate and posted.

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 4:08AM

<< but silver doesn't form oxides spontaneously in air and sulfur contained in paper isn't responsible for toning. It's clear you have no idea of the chemistry behind oxidation of silver. >>

Wrong, the sulfur in the cardboard out gasses and reacts with the 02 and forms an Oxide on the silver of a coin. This process takes sometime, we can discuss the chemistry of oxidation and silver in greater detail if you'd like. And gee, my Professors would dis-agree with the notion that I have no idea behind the oxidation of silver. So would my grades as well. Its clear your not very clear of the oxidation process as a whole.

Russ · November 30, 2002 4:29AM

Interesting discussion. As soon as I figure out what the hell you people are talking about, I'll post something pithy.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 4:32AM

<< Interesting discussion. As soon as I figure out what the hell you people are talking about, I'll post something pithy. >>

I think I need another Margarita, its hard trying to think when your sober!

Iwog · November 30, 2002 5:12AM

Lucy, toning isn't silver oxide it's silver sulfide. There is no oxide ion involved so you're wrong on count 1.

In tab toning, the area of the coin closest to the cardboard is often UNTONED while the area exposed by the cutouts is TONED. The hydrogen sulfide comes from the air. If it was leeching out of the cardboard, you'd expect most of the toning to occur closest to it. Thus you are wrong on count 2.

Silver is inert with respect to normal air and will only react with ozone, hydrogen sulfide and other sulfur-containing molecules. Silver does NOT react with O2 as you stated so you are wrong on count 3. Here's proof

Please don't post anything else on the subject of silver chemistry. You've presented some VERY poor information which is obviously incorrect. When Tom pointed out the mistake I made regarding silver sulfide being the reactive gas, I corrected it and admitted my error. Don't let your arrogance about toned coins interfere with your judgment.

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 5:34AM

Well, then we'll just have to diasgree, cause Toning on original mint sets is a result of sulfur out gassing and combining with 02 and even mositure that is found in the atmosphere. I have seen my share of these mint sets, and some have very even ugly toning, others have uneven splotchy toning, the other factors are how these sets were stored, either in a humid envoriment or who knows what other variables where added. So that dismisses your statement of :

<< In tab toning, the area of the coin closest to the cardboard is often UNTONED while the area exposed by the cutouts is TONED. The hydrogen sulfide comes from the air. If it was leeching out of the cardboard, you'd expect most of the toning to occur closest to it. Thus you are wrong on count 2. >>

Silver is not a great choice for a conductive material (but thats another discussion) But it still oxidizes and 02 is one of the factors in this process, and the link you have posted in heres proof said this as well: or air containing sulphur. which makes the Kitty realize I'm mis=spelling yet another word.... This sulphur again outgasses from the cardbord and mixes with the n2 and 02 that is the air that we breath and in an enviroment where the air is stagnant, it will cause a reaction with the coins surface. O2 in the atmosphere does play a role, as unless you have a chamber and you pump it down to say 5 millitorr and n2 purge it and deplete any o2 content, you will always have 02 which buy the way plays a role in an oxide coating on silverware which is commonly reffered to as tarnish.

<< Please don't post anything else on the subject of silver chemistry. You've presented some VERY poor information which is obviously incorrect. When Tom pointed out the mistake I made regarding silver sulfide being the reactive gas, I corrected it and admitted my error. Don't let your arrogance about toned >>

Since Tom is you reference him Pm'd me and didn't dispute any of the phyics of the oxidation process that I stated. Keep searching the web for this info, I do wonder what is out there about oxides and their formations. Though I don't expect Tom to agree with everything, His background is very scientific and he is very educated, I doubt he has to search the web for information. At a job I had in the past these subjects were often debated amongst the Process Engineers...

You started the thread and I am free to post and kindly debate your info in a civil manner.

Cam40 · November 30, 2002 6:26AM

Ya,I love reading about the subject of toning and the AT vs NT debates and coin doctoring.
Funny how it ends up with a few splitting hairs on the most technical aspects of the toning process.
Nonetheless,It sure makes for some enlightening reading...please continue.

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 6:48AM

<< His technique is risky and a crap shoot as to a viable successrate and I would venture to guess one would wind up with more ruined coins then anything. >>

Not necesarily, if you mean by "ruin", destroy. Just remove the oxides from the surface and start again. As you know, chemistry is just that, chemistry.

If you're going to AT a coin, you want to start off with a nice, clean, oxide free, oil free, "dirt free" surface.

Then use some of that tequila to wash the coin, and dry immediately!

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 6:54AM

<< Not necesarily, if you mean by "ruin", destroy. Just remove the oxides from the surface and start again. As you know, chemistry is just that, chemistry. If you're going to AT a coin, you want to start off with a nice, clean, oxide free, oil free, "dirt free" surface. >>

Makes alot of sense however one would want to avoid having to remove an oxide and trying again. And the tequila part of your post, interesting that there is actually other uses for this liquid gold then my homemade frozen Margaritas!!! I have to ponder this new and exciting concept!

agentjim007 · November 30, 2002 7:28AM

Ya know I really don't care who is exactly right with this scientific crap. I got enough from this thread to realize that artificially toning coins can be taken to a very high level and all you guys buying $5K MS65 Morgans should be sweating.

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 7:39AM

Can't you just imagine the segment on 60 Minutes. "Coin Doctors Exposed", with video of coins moving through elaborate furnaces like bagels on a bagel toasting machine. Interviews with doctors (their faces electronically blanked out), dealer - doctor syndicates exposed!
Interviews with prominent chemists and metallurgists on how the AT process works. NT gurus screaming that its all a "media sham - that they really know AT from NT. What a great media circus.

WOW - makes one want to hire a private detective and try and see if such a story could be found. Any TV producers looking for a good expose (thats expose with the little "thingy" over the "e")?

LucyBop · November 30, 2002 7:43AM

It does make for an entertaining Saturday.

ClausUrch · November 30, 2002 7:45AM

Imagine the heated competition once these AT "doctors" get going. Slogans such as, "We Char-Broil ours", or "57 Different Toned Varieties" would abound!

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 7:48AM

I've had some success wrapping coins in cloth and leaving them in the bottom of the cat's litter box for days or weeks. Is that AT or NT? I think a good case could be made that its NT - but probably best not to advertise too much.

Cam40 · November 30, 2002 7:58AM

lol.Ah yes ,And then there are the unsanitary methods of toning.

I heard a story of curio shop owners abroad that had their goats `pass` fake acients to give them an old nasty toned look that the tourists would buy as authentic.
Yuck.

Steve27 · November 30, 2002 8:04AM

Hey, you should all just stop saying nasty things about my baby Link to beauty.

DHeath · November 30, 2002 8:04AM

And I thought the guys who rubbed dilute liver of sulphur around the edge of the whitman holes and laid the coins in a sunny spot for a few months were sophisticated!

lathmach · November 30, 2002 8:07AM

<< lol.Ah yes ,And then there are the unsanitary methods of toning.

I heard a story of curio shop owners abroad that had their goats `pass` fake acients to give them an old nasty toned look that the tourists would buy as authentic.
Yuck. >>

This reminds me of a guy that made "ancient coins" over in Turkey who forced his coins down a roosters throat so it would mix with the stones in the gizzard. after 6 weeks or so, he'd kill and eat the rooster and take his coin out that now had a beautiful natural looking patina.

Ray

DHeath · November 30, 2002 8:15AM

Here is my most sophisticated piece of work. I'm hoping the blue jumps from my mother-in-laws old spoon to the Morgan.

Morgan experiment

dragon · November 30, 2002 8:15AM

Hi Iwog,

I certainly don't doubt that you or anyone else can tone a coin using about $3.00 worth of readily available materials. The only thing is that in 99% of the cases, you end up with a dark, unattractive, unslabable, and easily detectable fake coin.

Both myself and everyone else here would definately like to see you back up your claims and get one of your "creations" in a holdered by PCGS (with before and after pics) and then SOLD for THOUSANDS of dollars as you claim......until you show us all that, it's all talk, and not overly impressive and nothing new.

dragon

Tonekiller · November 30, 2002 8:20AM

I would like to also see the proof before getting sucked into another AT thread.

TBT

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 8:27AM

The trick with the cat's litter box is to ensure proper diet. Too much salmon or tuna and not enough very rare beef tends to darken the coin too much. A live goose is perfect for the blues and reds, but cleaning up the house, especially vacuuming all those little feathers, is really a drag. Chef's Blend dry food seems to work well with copper - if you want to try and create that "original mint tissue paper blazing blues and purples". WARNING, leave the coin too long and it will be pitted and worthless.

Iwog · November 30, 2002 8:35AM

Lucy, sulfur can't "outgas", it's a solid.

O2 cannot tarnish silver and most of what you've said on the subject is absurd. Here is the chemical reaction:

H2S + 2Ag ---> Ag2S + H2 The reaction is exothermic and doesn't require oxygen.

Question: The link I provided stated that silver is non-reactive in pure air and water although it's clear you think otherwise. In fact, I checked several sites just to confirm this. Are you saying the entire scientific establishment is wrong and you are right? Reference

AGAIN you talk about oxides. Silver sulfide does not contain the oxide ion and silver cannot spontaneously combine with oxygen in the air to form it. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up other than you're stubborn and not willing to admit you're wrong. The oxidation of silver into silver sulfide does NOT involve oxygen.

clackamas · November 30, 2002 8:37AM

>>Silver is inert with respect to normal air and will only react with ozone, hydrogen sulfide and other sulfur-containing molecules. Silver does NOT react with O2 as you stated so you are wrong on count 3. Here's proof

Point of order, IWOG you are also wrong with the above quoted statement. Silver also reacts with Chlorine. Its turns silver blue.

Spooly · November 30, 2002 8:44AM

Both myself and everyone else here would definately like to see you back up your claims and get one of your "creations" in a holdered by PCGS (with before and after pics) and then SOLD for THOUSANDS of dollars as you claim......until you show us all that, it's all talk, and not overly impressive and nothing new.

I would like to see the proof also..... but I don't think anyone would want to go to jail just to prove a point to us, do you?

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 8:47AM

Actually, silver reacts with lots of elements, including nitrogen, iodine, ........flourine, .... and whatever is in cat urine!

If you want to see proof about cat urine - try it, it works!

JMOORE · November 30, 2002 8:57AM

I found this article today and thought that it was interesting reading.
A Dynamite Case of Silver Dollars (Link)

Jim

Bulldog · November 30, 2002 9:10AM

Thought you guys & Gals could TONE it down a bit. I never would have guessed that CHEATS exist, amongst Numismatists.

Bulldog

What the *ell was I drinking? LOL

IrishMike · November 30, 2002 9:37AM

The reason you see very few toned 99.9% silver coins is because it is very unreactive as elements go, however Morgans are not 100% silver they are 90% silver and 10% copper. Indeed copper is obtained from copper sulphate ores and copper oxide ores. It would be very interesting to hear what a metallurgist could add to this discussion.

relayer · November 30, 2002 9:43AM

If you want to see proof about cat urine - try it, it works!

Even if it's the most beautiful coin in the world - nobody want's cat piss on their coins.

Iwog · November 30, 2002 9:43AM

Yes silver reacts with countless agents however we're talking about toning on coins and chlorine is generally not present in household air. Hydrogen sulfide is in the air because it is released by bacteria, food, matches, gunpowder, and many other things that are around every day. Anyway, we're talking about tarnish on silver and almost all of it is silver sulfide.

ccrdragon · November 30, 2002 9:44AM

Point of order Iwog - how do you define 'pure air'?!?!?

I know that if I leave silver (like candle holders, silver rounds, etc) exposed to the air in my house, they will tarnish. I also know that sulfer does occur in a gaseous state - it is a natural emmission of both the human body and of any internal combustion engine, so if
there is sulfer in the paper or cardboard, it will be released and will combine with the hydrogen in the air to create hydrogen sulfide.
This gas is what causes the silver to tarnish or discolor (or to create the tab toning that are talking about).

Also, silver will react with almost any other metal to create wild colors!

IrishMike · November 30, 2002 9:47AM

It should also be noted that hydrogen sulphide is a natural by product of natural gas, so get out your bunsen burners.

I have heard it does wonders on Ikes.

Pushkin · November 30, 2002 9:58AM

Excellent point - the alloy makes all the difference!

<< The reason you see very few toned 99.9% silver coins is because it is very unreactive as elements go, however Morgans are not 100% silver they are 90% silver and 10% copper. Indeed copper is obtained from copper sulphate ores and copper oxide ores. It would be very interesting to hear what a metallurgist could add to this discussion. >>

Actually you can find out a lot about the properties of the different alloys by just checking the ASM Metals Reference Book - I used to work as a research engineer at a metallurgical research laboratory - just moved and can't find my copy. But, just a small amount of other elements can greatly change the properties of alloys. For example, stainless steel is stainless because of chromium, and many hard steels are hard because of very small amounts of carbon. If I find the book, I'll list some of the properties of coin silver - i.e. what it likes to react with.

Iwog · November 30, 2002 11:06AM

Ccr, the definition of "pure air" is not a point of order. It's an issue of semantics.

Cardboard may contain sulfur when it's produced, but it is not responsible for toning on coins since sulfur is very reactive and is used up quickly. This is a very common misconception in the coin collecting community and probably results from toned coins being found in cardboard albums and mint sets. What is really happening is the pourous cardboard allows hydrogen sulfide gas to pass from the air to the coin resulting in rim toning in album coins and one sided even toning in mint sets.

If you want proof of this, look at my tab toning Example again. The light areas are those COVERED by the cardboard while the dark areas are those exposed to the air. Old mint sets tone coins evenly, NOT from the rim inward which would be expected since the cardboard holder is in contact with the coin on the rim.

How to create an AT coin

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