<< <i>O2 cannot tarnish silver and most of what you've said on the subject is absurd. Here is the chemical reaction: >>
Again you fail to see the point, 02 is part of the process, I have said repeatedly that there are other variables that aid in a oxide growth on silver, when it comes to the coins in mint sets the sulphur in the cardboard with 02 as a variable causes a reaction on the coins surface, if one took a coin and put it in a chamber that was 02 rich and 02 only, and (heres another one of those variables) introduced heat oxide would grow. It would not grow as fast as it would on bare silicon but it would grow. The old mint sets not only had the problem of the sulphur rich cardboard, but many of them also suffered from poor forms of storage which again opens the door to many variables, some were stored in humid envoriments, others dry, its hard to say. One of the elements that I was leaving out was heat with some of the previously mentioned variables, since I refered you to a furnace and I was specifically talking about a atmospheric furnace and not a Chemical Vapor deposition furnace I thought you would have realized heat was involved. The website you link to are very basic and were not built with toning a silver coin in mind. Heres a perfect example of how water can grow an oxide on silver. If you put a silver coin in a chamber, introduce heat, then at pre-determined ratios you flow H2 and 02 you would basically get water which would then become a steam due to the heat and the result is a fast and low quality oxide growth. It basic semiconductor theory what a wet oxide is, but a wet ox isn't the point to the original post. A dry ox is the prefer'd because it is more controllable and of better quality. I wont go into dry ox theory, I don't think you may get the point?
You keep using the term 'oxide ion', and you have asked many questions, I'll ask a few now.
What is an 'oxide ion'? You realize that to use these two terms together is an oxymoron. A simple diffinition to the term oxide is a reacted oxygen molucule. An Ion implies that it is a charged atom (singular) found with either a negative or positive charge. It doesn't make sense using these terms together.
Do you even understand what a grown oxide is and its composition? Since you use the term oxide Ion? When I stated it's a non-amphorous structure do you know what that means?
Do you know what would affect an oxide growth in a controlled chamber or enviroment?
Do you know what a Atmospheric Diffusion furnace even is?
I could keep going, but this will cause you to surf the internet all night linking sites which don't defend your position very well.
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Lucy, sulfur can't "outgas", it's a solid. >>
I may be just a dumb country boy but I live close to a paper mill and was wondering what that yellow smoke was that use to come from the tank car that say sulfur on them. they don't smoke now like they use to back in the 1970s must EPA thing.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Mac, the yellow smoke might have been sulfur dioxide. Before epa regulations, lots of that crap was pumped into the air.
Yeah Truth, I lost the argument and Lucy says "oxide ion" is an oxymoron........how much more absurd can this conversation get. Tom, I know you're laughing too. Feel free to tell Lucy what an oxide is.
Lucy, for some obscure reason you keep saying that hydrogen and oxygen is involved in toning a coin. Tell us how. Incredible as it seems, you have now introduced a pressure chamber, steam, atmospheric diffusion furnace and a deposition furnace into the discussion of silver tarnish. Although I'm sure these are all interesting subjects, they are hardly relevent to why a coin turns brown.
Here's my last attempt to educate you in high school chemistry. Oxide is a -2 ion composed of one oxygen atom. That's ALL it is. Peroxide is a -2 ion composed of two oxygen atoms. Hydroxide is a -1 ion composed of OH. Toning on a coin is silver sulfide and doesn't involve the oxide ion. There is no oxide growth on coins, in fact strictly speaking there is no oxide growth anywhere. Oxide ions cannot exist free unless bonded with a positive ion or disolved in a solvent. Yes people do use the term oxide when refering to a compound like silver oxide, iron oxide, etc. Somehow I doubt you have any idea this is the case.
Lucy, it appears you didn't follow my links previously so it's a waste of time to post them now. Ask Tom if anything I am saying is incorrect. You can also ask him if "oxide ion" is an oxymoron. I also suggest a good community college if you want to learn more about chemistry.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
first Iwog says this remark in his original post:Creating an oxidation layer on a silver coin is extremely easy, and it's the pattern of oxidation that is difficult but attainable. Then all of the sudden his story changes and he now has this to say:There is no oxide growth on coins, in fact strictly speaking there is no oxide growth anywhere.
Which are we to believe?????? He fails to see that he even argues and contradicts himself. It is very apparent that Mr. TomB is your final court of arbitration, since you constantly seek his approval.
<< <i>Oxide is a -2 ion composed of one oxygen atom. >>
Silly! How do you explain SiO2 which is not an ion it is neither positively nor negatively charged and has two Oxygen atoms bonded to a Silicon atom? Yet it exists readily in nature!
Now to clarify your misunderstanding of what an Ion is, it is a charged particle that results from the addition or removal of electrons from atoms or molecules.
An Oxide is this: A reaction between oxygen and some other substance. You can't speak of an oxidation without a corresponding reduction. But enough of this high school chemistry, you might consider middle school and work your way up.
You stated:Peroxide is a -2 ion composed of two oxygen atoms. Peroxide is the name given to that compound, but it does not imply that a reaction with any substance has taken place. The oxide that Lucy is referring to implies that the O2 molecule has reacted with some other substance (ie silver).
Oxidation results in toning, though not all toning is a result of oxidation as you argue, Sulphur can result in toning as well but 02 is a catalyst in that reaction.
Again your very 1st post you talked about creating an oxide layer, when you were hit with the facts on how and why this occurs, you ran to every website you could find, contradicted yourself, called on TomB for help.....The advanced concepts of oxidation growth via a Furnace of some sort is very foreign to you, you need matches and rotten eggs.
Lucy has spoken freely and on her own.
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>How to create an AT coin? Post a pic of an authentic bag toned Morgan on this forum and let all the experts have a wack! Presto chango, an AT'd coin! GSAGUY >>
Only because it deserves to be read twice.
Lucy- You're my brand new hero! Suddenly I'm finding Dew-Whop much more attractive.
I learned in high school chemistry that OH- was the hydroxyl ion. Don't know where you get the hydroxide ion from this. By definition once you oxidize something you've created a molecule that is neutrally charged. Doesn't ionic indicate the molecule is broken up into it's charge components like H+ and OH- for water? The tailpipe of your SUV spews forth Carbon dioxide (CO2), Nitrogen Oxides (NOX), Sulfur dioxide (SO2), and Carbon Monoxide (CO). None of these are ions.
Oxide is the name of an ion. Silver oxide is formed when a silver ion is bonded to an oxide ion. Roadrunner, you must remember that I wasn't even discussing oxides since toning on a coin is silver sulfide. Please ask Lucy why she wants to talk about ions since she keeps bringing up oxides.
Because of her lack of knowlege in chemistry, Lucy doesn't understand that oxidation in science often refers to the reduction of electrons in a chemical reaction. She assumed, incorrectly, that oxidation must require oxygen and therefore built her entire argument on toning using O2. Now she's created a mountain of VERY bad science which should be entirely ignored.
H2S + 2Ag ---> Ag2S + H2 is an oxidation reduction reaction which means the silver is losing electrons and becoming a silver ion/electronegative in the process. In this case, the silver is being oxidized by the sulfur.
This debate has gotten silly. For one thing, Lucy is making up stuff as she goes. I can't stand people who display their credentials because it's arrogant and generally no prediction of someone's knowlege on a particular subject, however it seems that Lucy cannot discuss any topic without getting personal. (In this case, a reference to high school chemistry) My major was biology and genetics at the University of California. I was top of the class for 2 years of chemistry and I tutored molecular chemistry for an additional two years. I used to be able to balance complex oxidation-reduction reactions in my head. Forgive me, that's all I will say about my credentials.
Back to the original topic. Applying brown gunk to commemortive coins is easy, and it will raise the value and make them ugly. Try not to defraud anyone.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
It's rather pointless to continue, Iwog failed to address why he changed his story and contradicted himself.
<< <i>Lucy doesn't understand that oxidation in science often refers to the reduction of electrons in a chemical reaction. >>
He points this out yet if one goes back to my last post they will read this: An Oxide is this: A reaction between oxygen and some other substance. You can't speak of an oxidation without a corresponding reduction.
He's either learning from my posts or ignoring them cause he makes my point and then pretends I didn't know.
He could not answer this: How do you explain SiO2 which is not an ion it is neither positively nor negatively charged and has two Oxygen atoms bonded to a Silicon atom? Yet it exists readily in nature!
Which was stated in response to one of his forumulas that isn't found in any of my text books.
Then he says this:I can't stand people who display their credentials because it's arrogant.
And then he goes on to display his credentials.
I will only say this about my credentials, in this field I have 16 years experience and companys like Intel, AMD and anyother semiconductor company need not fear Iwogs understanding of an oxide. As far as creating a mountain of bad science, I do not claim to know it all, but that is not the case. The point of the original thread was his statement of growing an oxide on a silver coin, a statement which he later contradicted and said an oxide cannot grow. I presented a very advanced technique of growing an oxide through controlled enviroments and proper chemical control. I can see how it must not make sense to one who prescribes to matches and rotten eggs.
I will refrain from answering anymore cause the board is at this point probably growing very tired of this discussion and by doing so is in no way an admission to anything on my part, I stand by what I have said on this subject, on oxide growth, on oxide quality and on a oxide definition.
the HepKitty!
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
You've said the stupidiest things such as "oxide ion is an oxymoron"
Your credentials have nothing to do with molecular chemistry.
Nothing you are posting has anything to do with silver sulfide. (toning on a coin)
You're arrogant, rude, and not very smart. The only reason I told you my scientific background is because you lied about my education and I appologized for stating it.
You think that sulfur, a solid, can "gas out".
You've said numerous times that O2 is involved in toning yet you have absolutely no idea and refuse to post any chemical process that involves oxygen at room temperature and air.
You think oxygen is a catalyst. (nonsense)
You think oxidation must involve oxygen which is false although you've stated it several times.
You owe me and the board an appology for spreading misinformation and lying.
I think that covers it.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Rainbows are beautiful in the sky Chemicals on teeth to make them whiter is nice, too.
I like my coins looking like they came from the MINT, not a paint shop, coated with PVC nor RUINED by some chemical reaction to the metal.
and of course , in a PCGS slab.
wow, old thread re-visited, eh ?
Excellent lesson in the process of chemistry as it pertains to the toning of silver... be it AT, NT or CT (chemically toned)... maybe PCGS should consider regrading them all as "chemically toned" because basically, isn't that what toning is ? Yuck... they should be bodybagged... all of them !
I once bought a pretty coin from the Hep Cat Kitty. It still is pretty. She got it from a mint set and the natural surroundings toned the coin. She's had some others that have looked fantastic! Wish I was the lucky one to get them. Did SHE use chemistry? No way. They are natural. Others that HAVE replied to this thread ARE faking the colors and selling them both here and E-bay. Whom do you trust? I HAVE bought one of the fakes knowing it because I liked the coin! YES, I paid too much, but, whom here hasn't? Do I need a chemistry degree to know how it all happens, no! How can I know the difference? YEARS of knowledge, gathered by talking with others, looking at tens of thousands or more of coins, practicing making fakes to see what to look for. Yes, I have taken my coins and placed them in an oven, gas and electric range, open fire etc MANY years ago when I was a kid learning all I could about coins. My dad said white coins were more desirable, but not to me. God creates rainbows, and so does man. But those whom have experience, can usually tell the difference. NOT by photos, but, looking at the coin in hand. Picasso made a lot of money in his day, BUT, his painting are worth hundreds of times what he sold them for after he died. I wouldn't give a wooden nickel for any of his paintings. But many people do. Buy what you like, NOT what others hype and tell you to buy. Buy the coin, NOT the holder. The TPG companies have been fooled on MANY occassions, none of us are perfect. Does it matter if Hep Kitty or IWOG are right? NO!! BUt at least they can bring this up to the table and help us attain knowledge as to the process so we can have an understanding the basics. It would be nice for a coin doctor(s) out there to show us examples on different types of materials (coin types) during the before, during and after process. If I knew a coin was fake I would stil buy it at a REASONABLE level. The same holds true for ANY coin I buy. Raw or otherwise. Please lets drop our gloves and be civil. We can all have some input here on the boards to help this wonderful hobby grow and teach the newbies something so it will continue to flourish. That's just my fifty cents... Ray
You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!
<< <i>lol.Ah yes ,And then there are the unsanitary methods of toning. I heard a story of curio shop owners abroad that had their goats `pass` fake acients to give them an old nasty toned look that the tourists would buy as authentic. Yuck. >>
This reminds me of a guy that made "ancient coins" over in Turkey who forced his coins down a roosters throat so it would mix with the stones in the gizzard. after 6 weeks or so, he'd kill and eat the rooster and take his coin out that now had a beautiful natural looking patina.
Ray >>
What if the rooster crapped it out (a crap-out artist)?
Wow...........LucyBop, gsaguy, TomB, jom, roadrunner, truthteller, bear, and the infamous Iwog all in the same thread. I really miss threads like these. Where is Iwog anyway?????
<< <i>Wow...........LucyBop, gsaguy, TomB, jom, roadrunner, truthteller, bear, and the infamous Iwog all in the same thread. I really miss threads like these. Where is Iwog anyway????? >>
Iwog is now the omniscient political guru at OFR... if you don't believe me, just ask him.
One thing about taking a break from the hobby and then coming back is you notice things that are significantly different from a few years ago. There are a ton of Morgans out there with "color" in new holders. I don't remember that many from the past. Seems like this is a recent trend. Also - the explanation back in the day is that most morgan's got their color from lying in a mint bag for years and reacted with the sulfur in the bag. Most of these had crescents with a distinguishable color band as another coin was usually laying on top of it. Made sense. Some were envelope toned from sitting an envelope for years. Made sense. Most of the color I see on today's Morgan's seems too bright, devoid of depth and without a pattern - I can't make sense of it. I just consider them Fugazi's and move on. In response to IWOG's original post from back in the day, I do think you can tell real old color vs the commercial rush jobs.
I remember a video from John Campbell (I think that was his name) on how to detect artificial toning on coins. He explained things pretty simply. I still remember most of those points. Its a good watch if you care about this subject.
<< <i>Most of the color I see on today's Morgan's seems too bright, devoid of depth and without a pattern - I can't make sense of it. I just consider them Fugazi's and move on. >>
You sound like you're fitting in just fine. Welcome back. The issue, these days, is to try to catch the fazools. Then, minimum, five days in the electric chair. Only problem is, nobody can define a fazool. But, we have experts, you understand, and so we're hardly going to let a little detail like that worry us.
This has been going on way before any of us was a gleen in anyones eyes. But, we can change it. Just takes some strong personalities to make it happen. Can't hide behind the burning bush. Personally, I have never purchased a coin that I had any doubt to it's originality. Not much help, but something I can sleep good at night about.
<< <i>This has been going on way before any of us was a gleen in anyones eyes. But, we can change it. Just takes some strong personalities to make it happen. Can't hide behind the burning bush. Personally, I have never purchased a coin that I had any doubt to it's originality. Not much help, but something I can sleep good at night about. >>
Lee,
Wasn't the OP's point that he could make this coin with his toning method?
The probability is extremely high that everyone who collects toned coins has owned an AT at one time or another, even if they didn't know it.
@Diamond70 said:
Iwog is on the money, no pun intended. Mark Twain Quote: “No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.” Or idiots in this case, plural.
Considering that his post was from 2002, the best you could have said of him was that he "was", not "is" on the money. But that would have been incorrect, too. Based on his two statements (copied below), it's clear that he didn't understand that tab toning doesn't automatically add significant value to silver commemoratives. And he was incorrect in thinking that dark tab-toned examples sell almost as well as attractive ones and/or higher quality ones do.
In the first example below, the extra $5000 in price wouldn't have resulted just from the presence of typical tab toning. And in the second example, a near-$18,000 price achieved (for a coin that usually brought "a few bills") wouldn't have resulted just from the presence of typical tab toning, either. In failing miserably in his attempt to make his case, he totally ignored differences in value that are due to differences in quality/condition and eye-appeal.
1) The guy I watched do this put a very light patina on a Roanoke and slapped about $5000 onto the sales price. For some reason, dark tab toned commems sell almost as well as the pretty ones do."
and
2) "Here's a genuine naturally tab toned commem that recently sold for an absurd amount of money so you can see what it should look like when finished. Example It realized almost $18,000 for a coin that could be bought brilliant for a few bills".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Diamond70 said: @MFeld
I mean this in a nice way. I don't actually care about whether you think I should have referred to him in the past or present tense. I decided to use the present tense on the basis that Iwog is probably still alive and may have been a bit offended that I referred to him in the past tense if he read it. Moreover. If you work for Heritage Auctions as you claim, then you're exactly the type coin aficionado that he was rebuking. It doesn't make you the best candidate to pass comment really, does it? You've obviously got 'your knickers in a twist' to use the vernacular. Talk to yourself if you like, but I won't be wasting my time indulging you any further. Toodle pip.
You needn’t have prefaced your comments by telling me you meant them in a nice way. Your exceptionally nice tone came through quite clearly.😉
Seeing as how Iwog’s post was in the past, a reference to them should be in the past tense, regardless of whether he’s alive today. And yes, I understand that you don’t care.
If I work for Heritage Auctions as I claim? It’s easy enough to confirm that. But regardless of where I work, I or anyone knowledgeable about classic silver commemoratives would know that Iwog’s comments about tab toning missed the mark badly.
Have a very nice day.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You could pick up a used Thermal Furnace for just under 300,000 from Switzerland if you act fast. Don't forget these furnaces come both in horizontal and vertical styles to match your home space.
@bsshog40 said:
This may be a record for a post being brought back to life. Started in 2002, came back in 2005, then in 2009, again in 2010 and now in 2023. Lol
The span between years almost doubles. Next time we see it won’t be until the 2040’s.
Comments
<< <i>O2 cannot tarnish silver and most of what you've said on the subject is absurd. Here is the chemical reaction: >>
Again you fail to see the point, 02 is part of the process, I have said repeatedly that there are other variables that aid in a oxide growth on silver, when it comes to the coins in mint sets the sulphur in the cardboard with 02 as a variable causes a reaction on the coins surface, if one took a coin and put it in a chamber that was 02 rich and 02 only, and (heres another one of those variables) introduced heat oxide would grow. It would not grow as fast as it would on bare silicon but it would grow. The old mint sets not only had the problem of the sulphur rich cardboard, but many of them also suffered from poor forms of storage which again opens the door to many variables, some were stored in humid envoriments, others dry, its hard to say. One of the elements that I was leaving out was heat with some of the previously mentioned variables, since I refered you to a furnace and I was specifically talking about a atmospheric furnace and not a Chemical Vapor deposition furnace I thought you would have realized heat was involved. The website you link to are very basic and were not built with toning a silver coin in mind. Heres a perfect example of how water can grow an oxide on silver. If you put a silver coin in a chamber, introduce heat, then at pre-determined ratios you flow H2 and 02 you would basically get water which would then become a steam due to the heat and the result is a fast and low quality oxide growth. It basic semiconductor theory what a wet oxide is, but a wet ox isn't the point to the original post. A dry ox is the prefer'd because it is more controllable and of better quality. I wont go into dry ox theory, I don't think you may get the point?
You keep using the term 'oxide ion', and you have asked many questions, I'll ask a few now.
What is an 'oxide ion'? You realize that to use these two terms together is an oxymoron. A simple diffinition to the term oxide is a reacted oxygen molucule. An Ion implies that it is a charged atom (singular) found with either a negative or positive charge. It doesn't make sense using these terms together.
Do you even understand what a grown oxide is and its composition? Since you use the term oxide Ion? When I stated it's a non-amphorous structure do you know what that means?
Do you know what would affect an oxide growth in a controlled chamber or enviroment?
Do you know what a Atmospheric Diffusion furnace even is?
I could keep going, but this will cause you to surf the internet all night linking sites which don't defend your position very well.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
TRUTH
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
<< <i>Personally, after reading this thread again, I am glad my shoes have velcro rather than strings ... >>
Is that cause it got alittle too deep and you wanted to save your shoes?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
roadrunner
<< <i>Lucy, sulfur can't "outgas", it's a solid. >>
I may be just a dumb country boy but I live close to a paper mill and was wondering what that yellow smoke was that use to come from the tank car that say sulfur on them. they don't smoke now like they use to back in the 1970s must EPA thing.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
Post a pic of an authentic bag toned Morgan on this forum and let all the experts have a wack!
Presto chango, an AT'd coin!
GSAGUY
Yeah Truth, I lost the argument and Lucy says "oxide ion" is an oxymoron........how much more absurd can this conversation get. Tom, I know you're laughing too. Feel free to tell Lucy what an oxide is.
Lucy, for some obscure reason you keep saying that hydrogen and oxygen is involved in toning a coin. Tell us how. Incredible as it seems, you have now introduced a pressure chamber, steam, atmospheric diffusion furnace and a deposition furnace into the discussion of silver tarnish. Although I'm sure these are all interesting subjects, they are hardly relevent to why a coin turns brown.
Here's my last attempt to educate you in high school chemistry. Oxide is a -2 ion composed of one oxygen atom. That's ALL it is. Peroxide is a -2 ion composed of two oxygen atoms. Hydroxide is a -1 ion composed of OH. Toning on a coin is silver sulfide and doesn't involve the oxide ion. There is no oxide growth on coins, in fact strictly speaking there is no oxide growth anywhere. Oxide ions cannot exist free unless bonded with a positive ion or disolved in a solvent. Yes people do use the term oxide when refering to a compound like silver oxide, iron oxide, etc. Somehow I doubt you have any idea this is the case.
Lucy, it appears you didn't follow my links previously so it's a waste of time to post them now. Ask Tom if anything I am saying is incorrect. You can also ask him if "oxide ion" is an oxymoron. I also suggest a good community college if you want to learn more about chemistry.
Which are we to believe?????? He fails to see that he even argues and contradicts himself. It is very apparent that Mr. TomB is your final court of arbitration, since you constantly seek his approval.
<< <i>Oxide is a -2 ion composed of one oxygen atom. >>
Silly! How do you explain SiO2 which is not an ion it is neither positively nor negatively charged and has two Oxygen atoms bonded to a Silicon atom? Yet it exists readily in nature!
Now to clarify your misunderstanding of what an Ion is, it is a charged particle that results from the addition or removal of electrons from atoms or molecules.
An Oxide is this: A reaction between oxygen and some other substance. You can't speak of an oxidation without a corresponding reduction. But enough of this high school chemistry, you might consider middle school and work your way up.
You stated:Peroxide is a -2 ion composed of two oxygen atoms.
Peroxide is the name given to that compound, but it does not imply that a reaction with any substance has taken place. The oxide that Lucy is referring to implies that the O2 molecule has reacted with some other substance (ie silver).
Oxidation results in toning, though not all toning is a result of oxidation as you argue, Sulphur can result in toning as well but 02 is a catalyst in that reaction.
Again your very 1st post you talked about creating an oxide layer, when you were hit with the facts on how and why this occurs, you ran to every website you could find, contradicted yourself, called on TomB for help.....The advanced concepts of oxidation growth via a Furnace of some sort is very foreign to you, you need matches and rotten eggs.
Lucy has spoken freely and on her own.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>How to create an AT coin? Post a pic of an authentic bag toned Morgan on this forum and let all the experts have a wack! Presto chango, an AT'd coin!
Only because it deserves to be read twice.
Lucy- You're my brand new hero!
Suddenly I'm finding Dew-Whop much more attractive.
peacockcoins
AL
Gotta love them Mercs
Don't know where you get the hydroxide ion from this. By definition once you oxidize something you've created a molecule that is neutrally charged. Doesn't ionic indicate the molecule is broken up into it's charge components like H+ and OH- for water? The tailpipe of your SUV spews forth Carbon dioxide (CO2), Nitrogen Oxides (NOX), Sulfur dioxide (SO2), and Carbon Monoxide (CO). None of these are ions.
roadrunner
Because of her lack of knowlege in chemistry, Lucy doesn't understand that oxidation in science often refers to the reduction of electrons in a chemical reaction. She assumed, incorrectly, that oxidation must require oxygen and therefore built her entire argument on toning using O2. Now she's created a mountain of VERY bad science which should be entirely ignored.
H2S + 2Ag ---> Ag2S + H2 is an oxidation reduction reaction which means the silver is losing electrons and becoming a silver ion/electronegative in the process. In this case, the silver is being oxidized by the sulfur.
This debate has gotten silly. For one thing, Lucy is making up stuff as she goes. I can't stand people who display their credentials because it's arrogant and generally no prediction of someone's knowlege on a particular subject, however it seems that Lucy cannot discuss any topic without getting personal. (In this case, a reference to high school chemistry) My major was biology and genetics at the University of California. I was top of the class for 2 years of chemistry and I tutored molecular chemistry for an additional two years. I used to be able to balance complex oxidation-reduction reactions in my head. Forgive me, that's all I will say about my credentials.
Back to the original topic. Applying brown gunk to commemortive coins is easy, and it will raise the value and make them ugly. Try not to defraud anyone.
<< <i>Lucy doesn't understand that oxidation in science often refers to the reduction of electrons in a chemical reaction. >>
He points this out yet if one goes back to my last post they will read this: An Oxide is this: A reaction between oxygen and some other substance. You can't speak of an oxidation without a corresponding reduction.
He's either learning from my posts or ignoring them cause he makes my point and then pretends I didn't know.
He could not answer this: How do you explain SiO2 which is not an ion it is neither positively nor negatively charged and has two Oxygen atoms bonded to a Silicon atom? Yet it exists readily in nature!
Which was stated in response to one of his forumulas that isn't found in any of my text books.
Then he says this:I can't stand people who display their credentials because it's arrogant.
And then he goes on to display his credentials.
I will only say this about my credentials, in this field I have 16 years experience and companys like Intel, AMD and anyother semiconductor company need not fear Iwogs understanding of an oxide. As far as creating a mountain of bad science, I do not claim to know it all, but that is not the case. The point of the original thread was his statement of growing an oxide on a silver coin, a statement which he later contradicted and said an oxide cannot grow. I presented a very advanced technique of growing an oxide through controlled enviroments and proper chemical control. I can see how it must not make sense to one who prescribes to matches and rotten eggs.
I will refrain from answering anymore cause the board is at this point probably growing very tired of this discussion and by doing so is in no way an admission to anything on my part, I stand by what I have said on this subject, on oxide growth, on oxide quality and on a oxide definition.
the HepKitty!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
GSAGUY
You've said the stupidiest things such as "oxide ion is an oxymoron"
Your credentials have nothing to do with molecular chemistry.
Nothing you are posting has anything to do with silver sulfide. (toning on a coin)
You're arrogant, rude, and not very smart. The only reason I told you my scientific background is because you lied about my education and I appologized for stating it.
You think that sulfur, a solid, can "gas out".
You've said numerous times that O2 is involved in toning yet you have absolutely no idea and refuse to post any chemical process that involves oxygen at room temperature and air.
You think oxygen is a catalyst. (nonsense)
You think oxidation must involve oxygen which is false although you've stated it several times.
You owe me and the board an appology for spreading misinformation and lying.
I think that covers it.
maybe we should start calling you the Keebler cookie girl.
Camelot
Chemicals on teeth to make them whiter is nice, too.
I like my coins looking like they came from the MINT, not a paint shop, coated with PVC nor RUINED by some chemical reaction to the metal.
and of course , in a PCGS slab.
wow, old thread re-visited, eh ?
Excellent lesson in the process of chemistry as it pertains to the toning of silver... be it AT, NT or CT (chemically toned)... maybe PCGS should consider regrading them all as "chemically toned" because basically, isn't that what toning is ? Yuck... they should be bodybagged... all of them !
Okay, let's throw stones again
I HAVE bought one of the fakes knowing it because I liked the coin! YES, I paid too much, but, whom here hasn't? Do I need a chemistry degree to know how it all happens, no! How can I know the difference? YEARS of knowledge, gathered by talking with others, looking at tens of thousands or more of coins, practicing making fakes to see what to look for. Yes, I have taken my coins and placed them in an oven, gas and electric range, open fire etc MANY years ago when I was a kid learning all I could about coins. My dad said white coins were more desirable, but not to me. God creates rainbows, and so does man. But those whom have experience, can usually tell the difference. NOT by photos, but, looking at the coin in hand.
Picasso made a lot of money in his day, BUT, his painting are worth hundreds of times what he sold them for after he died. I wouldn't give a wooden nickel for any of his paintings. But many people do. Buy what you like, NOT what others hype and tell you to buy. Buy the coin, NOT the holder. The TPG companies have been fooled on MANY occassions, none of us are perfect. Does it matter if Hep Kitty or IWOG are right? NO!! BUt at least they can bring this up to the table and help us attain knowledge as to the process so we can have an understanding the basics.
It would be nice for a coin doctor(s) out there to show us examples on different types of materials (coin types) during the before, during and after process. If I knew a coin was fake I would stil buy it at a REASONABLE level. The same holds true for ANY coin I buy. Raw or otherwise. Please lets drop our gloves and be civil. We can all have some input here on the boards to help this wonderful hobby grow and teach the newbies something so it will continue to flourish. That's just my fifty cents... Ray
<< <i>
<< <i>lol.Ah yes ,And then there are the unsanitary methods of toning.
I heard a story of curio shop owners abroad that had their goats `pass` fake acients to give them an old nasty toned look that the tourists would buy as authentic.
Yuck. >>
This reminds me of a guy that made "ancient coins" over in Turkey who forced his coins down a roosters throat so it would mix with the stones in the gizzard. after 6 weeks or so, he'd kill and eat the rooster and take his coin out that now had a beautiful natural looking patina.
Ray >>
What if the rooster crapped it out (a crap-out artist)?
<< <i>Actually, silver reacts with lots of elements, including nitrogen, iodine, ........flourine, .... and whatever is in cat urine!
If you want to see proof about cat urine - try it, it works! >>
I think I'd prefer rooster guts!
<< <i>Hep Kitty, with all this knowledge you have absorbed on toning,
maybe we should start calling you the Keebler cookie girl.
lol bear, i was wondering who dug this gem up
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>Wow...........LucyBop, gsaguy, TomB, jom, roadrunner, truthteller, bear, and the infamous Iwog all in the same thread. I really miss threads like these. Where is Iwog anyway?????
Iwog is now the omniscient political guru at OFR... if you don't believe me, just ask him.
Lucy in the Sky, hands down.
btw, I once had reservations at a Holiday Inn Express.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I remember a video from John Campbell (I think that was his name) on how to detect artificial toning on coins. He explained things pretty simply. I still remember most of those points. Its a good watch if you care about this subject.
<< <i>Most of the color I see on today's Morgan's seems too bright, devoid of depth and without a pattern - I can't make sense of it. I just consider them Fugazi's and move on. >>
You sound like you're fitting in just fine. Welcome back. The issue, these days, is to try to catch the fazools. Then, minimum, five days in the electric chair. Only problem is, nobody can define a fazool. But, we have experts, you understand, and so we're hardly going to let a little detail like that worry us.
<< <i>This has been going on way before any of us was a gleen in anyones eyes. But, we can change it. Just takes some strong personalities to make it happen. Can't hide behind the burning bush. Personally, I have never purchased a coin that I had any doubt to it's originality. Not much help, but something I can sleep good at night about.
Lee,
Wasn't the OP's point that he could make this coin with his toning method?
The probability is extremely high that everyone who collects toned coins has owned an AT at one time or another, even if they didn't know it.
Iwog is on the money, no pun intended. Mark Twain Quote: “No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.” Or idiots in this case, plural.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
What ever happened to our LucyBop? 🤔
Dave
Considering that his post was from 2002, the best you could have said of him was that he "was", not "is" on the money. But that would have been incorrect, too. Based on his two statements (copied below), it's clear that he didn't understand that tab toning doesn't automatically add significant value to silver commemoratives. And he was incorrect in thinking that dark tab-toned examples sell almost as well as attractive ones and/or higher quality ones do.
In the first example below, the extra $5000 in price wouldn't have resulted just from the presence of typical tab toning. And in the second example, a near-$18,000 price achieved (for a coin that usually brought "a few bills") wouldn't have resulted just from the presence of typical tab toning, either. In failing miserably in his attempt to make his case, he totally ignored differences in value that are due to differences in quality/condition and eye-appeal.
1) The guy I watched do this put a very light patina on a Roanoke and slapped about $5000 onto the sales price. For some reason, dark tab toned commems sell almost as well as the pretty ones do."
and
2) "Here's a genuine naturally tab toned commem that recently sold for an absurd amount of money so you can see what it should look like when finished. Example It realized almost $18,000 for a coin that could be bought brilliant for a few bills".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
She was last active in Dec. 2018.
Iwog was here a few years ago selling remnants of his collection. I bought a nice Boone in an OGH that CAC'd when I sent it in.
He popped into the OFR a few years ago.
You needn’t have prefaced your comments by telling me you meant them in a nice way. Your exceptionally nice tone came through quite clearly.😉
Seeing as how Iwog’s post was in the past, a reference to them should be in the past tense, regardless of whether he’s alive today. And yes, I understand that you don’t care.
If I work for Heritage Auctions as I claim? It’s easy enough to confirm that. But regardless of where I work, I or anyone knowledgeable about classic silver commemoratives would know that Iwog’s comments about tab toning missed the mark badly.
Have a very nice day.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
_ It's a way of saying goodbye usually used only among close friends. The expression is believed to have Cockney origins._
You could pick up a used Thermal Furnace for just under 300,000 from Switzerland if you act fast. Don't forget these furnaces come both in horizontal and vertical styles to match your home space.
This may be a record for a post being brought back to life. Started in 2002, came back in 2005, then in 2009, again in 2010 and now in 2023. Lol
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