Authenticating 1909-S VDB pennies

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Barucci911
Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Wanted some opinions on a coin I just picked up; thanks in advance.






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  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 1:40PM
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    Coin Facts pic for comparison:

    https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1909-s-vdb-1c-rd/2428

  • matt_dac
    matt_dac Posts: 963 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I used this resource to buy mine:
    https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @CoinPhysicist said:
    I'm no expert, but does that 'S' look a little bit funky?

    As a non-expert, a 1909 S VDB is a coin I would never buy raw.

    Agree. The S mintmark looks off to me. There is a small die chip within the top loop of the S on the real ones.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 1:52PM
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    Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

    Based upon the OP’s pics the VDB and MM are suspect.

    The MM is a different color and positioning appears off. Maybe it’s the pics but there looks like indents/depressions and a slightly different coloration on the east/west sides of the MM.

    The the B in VDB does not appear to have the slanted middle cross bar.

  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Never buy a raw 1909-S VDB raw unless YOU are an expert in authenticating them yourself. Check the rim of your coin to see if there is any evidence of drilling. The weakness of the mintmark makes me wonder if it isn't a punch-up.

    I'm no expert on these and would never buy a raw one myself.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    I just checked it over a little more, I believe it’s genuine, the “B” has the slight slant, not coming off either LOL. > @Hemispherical said:

    Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 1:50PM
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    Mint mark position looks like it is close to #3. The shape of the S looks off and the dots on the VDB are missing and center bar of the B look off. Based on the photos provided I would say it is very questionable.

  • matt_dac
    matt_dac Posts: 963 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I should have noted I bought mine slabbed and CAC actually but informed myself about the legit variations prior to shopping for one.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:
    I just checked it over a little more, I believe it’s genuine, the “B” has the slight slant, not coming off either LOL. > @Hemispherical said:

    Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

    Please post clear close ups of the MM and VDB.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Here you go man, I just got better pictures and It looks good.




    @Hemispherical said:

    @Barucci911 said:
    I just checked it over a little more, I believe it’s genuine, the “B” has the slight slant, not coming off either LOL. > @Hemispherical said:

    Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

    Please post clear close ups of the MM and VDB.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What is going on with the surface of the cent? Looks... porous/pitted.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If you think it’s authentic you’ll need a third party to authenticate it to find the true value of the cent.

    Good luck!

  • kevinstang
    kevinstang Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭
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    I think the whole coin is fake, don't like the mint mark- can't see die chip is upper loop of S and the missing dot after V in vdb- its there usually even on low grade coins. Also crossbar in B looks off.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    Well just have to see what the grading gods say. I think it’s worth a shot and a good lesson if not.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:
    Well just have to see what the grading gods say. I think it’s worth a shot and a good lesson if not.

    A bit of numismatic tuition. Hopefully the fee was at a community college level versus Harvard.

    Let us formites know how it goes @Barucci911.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The D & B don't look right plus no dots. :/

    Might wait to send it until you get a few more replies here.

  • Barucci911
    Barucci911 Posts: 63 ✭✭
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    2 dots missing

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    The D & B don't look right plus no dots. :/

    Might wait to send it until you get a few more replies here.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:
    2 dots missing

    Correct, and the one that is there is too close to the D.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Barucci911 said:
    I just checked it over a little more, I believe it’s genuine, the “B” has the slight slant, not coming off either LOL. > @Hemispherical said:

    Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents

    How did you check the MM and VDB?

    Did you dip it in acetone? Pure acetone will not affect the cent but if there is super glue involved it’ll soften/dissolve it.

  • giantsfan20
    giantsfan20 Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭✭
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    To Op you have quite the track record of purchases. This and your so called Branch Mint Proof.

    Care to say purchase amount? :#

    Live and learn?

  • cmerlo1
    cmerlo1 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 3:53PM
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    The dot next to the D appears to be too close to it, and the one after the V isn't even there. I'm in the added VDB or MM crowd.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • matt_dac
    matt_dac Posts: 963 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I would not suggest any sort of contact effort to check if authentic because you risk damaging it. The detailed analysis using provided resources should reveal its authenticity. If it appears to be one of the authentic variations send it in for grading.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Where’s @Insider2?

  • Insider2
    Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 4:13PM
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    He was last seen ducking this discussion this afternoon. Probably OK, The Image is too blurred to tell for sure. If the edge is sharp and shiny, that's a bad sign.

  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I hope I'm wrong but I'm voting against it being authentic.

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • RogerB
    RogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Rather than tinker with the coin, suggest sending it for authentication. Might also be good to let the seller know you are doing that -- sometimes it causes a "change of heart" and interesting things happen.

  • Insider2
    Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019 6:00PM
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    Nice work @Ikeigwin

    This is the way the Mint proved that the 1959 " mule" was a counterfeit. Note how the date numerals stay fixed in all the images as they change. When the mule was viewed with a genuine 1959, they could see that the die was not the same due to the transfer process used to create the fake.

    PS I'll need to look into that "dot" position you mention. It may be a really good diagnostic.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Now that I am home and have access to my reference material I have no problem saying this is not genuine.

  • kbbpll
    kbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭
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    It might be a real 1909-S with VDB added, I recall looking into this a while back and determining that the 4 S-VDB mint mark positions were also on the no-VDB, or really close. The size, shape, and position of VDB look good to me though; maybe somebody wants to overlay that. OP coin on left, real no-VDB on right.

  • Edthelorax
    Edthelorax Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
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    I would refer to this. There are only 4 known die pairs for authentic SVDB's. All 4 have a small die chip in the top of the S.
    All 4 are shown here. https://www.pcgs.com/news/Counterfeit-Vs-Authentic-1909-s-Vdb-Lincoln-Cents. With the Chinese having free reign copying anything they want, they don't have to glue on legends, they make their own dies. They are getting better and better every day with the massive funding from Ebay, Etsy, Amazon et.al. helping them market their crap.
    TPG is the only way to be sure.

    http://www.silverstocker.com
    Anyone can PM me Any Time about Any thing.

  • PTVETTER
    PTVETTER Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm in the not real camp
    the dot between D and B looks its from Philly

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • ChrisH821
    ChrisH821 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No good. Dot between the D and B is in the wrong place. Surface looks processed to me. Is this a sandwiched coin? What does the edge look like?

    Collector, occasional seller

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not your average counterfeit from China.

  • lkeigwin
    lkeigwin Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @kbbpll said:
    It might be a real 1909-S with VDB added, I recall looking into this a while back and determining that the 4 S-VDB mint mark positions were also on the no-VDB, or really close. The size, shape, and position of VDB look good to me though; maybe somebody wants to overlay that. OP coin on left, real no-VDB on right.

    I haven't given this a good look. But I would question why anyone would mess with a valuable 09-S to turn it into an S-VDB worth only marginally more.
    Lance.

    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    "why anyone would mess with a valuable 09-S to turn it into an S-VDB"

    Genuine coin was used to copy but was not harmed doing so.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    Not your average counterfeit from China.

    A quick search brought this up. Almost anything for $67.50. And it looks like it includes our host’s slabs. :/

    ——-

    “I am a Chinese coin collectors,I have a factory of production coin.
    I could provide the best coins and best service for you.”

    “All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same listing and use the same/ So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description.”

    https://m.aliexpress.com/storesearch/list/.html?sortType=TC3_D&searchType=storeSearch&trace=store2mobilestoreNew&storeId=412632#!

    Depressing to look at... even more depressing reading some of the feedback by buyers.

  • lkeigwin
    lkeigwin Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Maybe you can elaborate on the copy method and how the VDB was added?

    And why not get the VDB right? The position of the dot between D and B, vis-a-vis the Philly and SF coins, is pretty well known.
    Lance.

    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • kbbpll
    kbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭
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    @lkeigwin said:
    I haven't given this a good look. But I would question why anyone would mess with a valuable 09-S to turn it into an S-VDB worth only marginally more.
    Lance.

    Just me speculating. But price guide for 63RD shows $475 vs $2100, so there might be enough incentive there.

  • ifthevamzarockin
    ifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,915 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    "Maybe you can elaborate on the copy method and how the VDB was added?"

    Anything I could say would just be a guess without the coin in hand.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The section on transfer die maybe involved here.

    https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Fundamentals-Of-Counterfeit-Detection--Part-1

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Usually counterfeit 1909-S VDB cents are either struck from false dies or they take common genuine 1909 VDB cents and attach an S mintmark using glue or solder. I've never heard of taking a genuine 1909-S which is a relatively expensive coin and adding a near microscopic "V.D.B." which would seem to be a very difficult undertaking to accomplish in a convincing manner.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Just judging from the pictures, this is a coin I would not purchase....While not a 'S-VDB' expert, there are enough red flags even for me to skip this one....Cheers, RickO

  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019 6:14AM
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    Look real close. The "S" is very slightly slanted on die#3 on a genuine coin (which to me is the closest match).

    The "dot" between the D and B is wrong. It's from a 1909 V.D.B. Philly coin.

    You have a genuine 1909-P V.D.B. with an added mintmark.

    Bummer.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • lkenefic
    lkenefic Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm in the added mm camp as well. One thing that struck me on this piece was the coloring and the porous fields for a coin that has nice details.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • 1Mike1
    1Mike1 Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Wondering if this was sent to PCGS. :)

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 8:27AM
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    V.D.B. looks like it was etched on as it's very rough and irregular. The S is in the wrong position for any of the three known positions of S mintmark for 1909 S-V.D.B.

    Now, there are 6 mintmark positions for 1909-S. If that mintmark doesn't fall off after soaking the piece in acetone it could be a genuine 1909-S that has had a V.D.B. added by acid etching. Won't hurt the piece a bit to soak in acetone if done properly.

    I would let the piece soak for an hour or so in acetone. Then try to gently push the mintmark off with a toothpick unless of course it hasn't fallen off while soaking. Can't get the mintmark off after soaking in acetone? Think genuine 1909-S was used to make this fake.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @1Mike1 said:
    Wondering if this was sent to PCGS. :)

    Let’s ask.

    @Barucci911 Any updates? Sent it anywhere to get authenticated?

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