Authenticating 1909-S VDB pennies
Barucci911
Posts: 63 ✭✭
Wanted some opinions on a coin I just picked up; thanks in advance. 
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I'm no expert, but does that 'S' look a little bit funky?
As a non-expert, a 1909 S VDB is a coin I would never buy raw.
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Coin Facts pic for comparison:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1909-s-vdb-1c-rd/2428
I used this resource to buy mine:
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/
Agree. The S mintmark looks off to me. There is a small die chip within the top loop of the S on the real ones.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Does the MM or VDB come off? Amazing what super glue can do.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-vs-authentic-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cents
Based upon the OP’s pics the VDB and MM are suspect.
The MM is a different color and positioning appears off. Maybe it’s the pics but there looks like indents/depressions and a slightly different coloration on the east/west sides of the MM.
The the B in VDB does not appear to have the slanted middle cross bar.
Never buy a raw 1909-S VDB raw unless YOU are an expert in authenticating them yourself. Check the rim of your coin to see if there is any evidence of drilling. The weakness of the mintmark makes me wonder if it isn't a punch-up.
I'm no expert on these and would never buy a raw one myself.
I just checked it over a little more, I believe it’s genuine, the “B” has the slight slant, not coming off either LOL. > @Hemispherical said:
Mint mark position looks like it is close to #3. The shape of the S looks off and the dots on the VDB are missing and center bar of the B look off. Based on the photos provided I would say it is very questionable.
I should have noted I bought mine slabbed and CAC actually but informed myself about the legit variations prior to shopping for one.
Please post clear close ups of the MM and VDB.
Here you go man, I just got better pictures and It looks good.
What is going on with the surface of the cent? Looks... porous/pitted.
If you think it’s authentic you’ll need a third party to authenticate it to find the true value of the cent.
Good luck!
I think the whole coin is fake, don't like the mint mark- can't see die chip is upper loop of S and the missing dot after V in vdb- its there usually even on low grade coins. Also crossbar in B looks off.
Well just have to see what the grading gods say. I think it’s worth a shot and a good lesson if not.
A bit of numismatic tuition. Hopefully the fee was at a community college level versus Harvard.
Let us formites know how it goes @Barucci911.
The D & B don't look right plus no dots.
Might wait to send it until you get a few more replies here.
2 dots missing
Correct, and the one that is there is too close to the D.
How did you check the MM and VDB?
Did you dip it in acetone? Pure acetone will not affect the cent but if there is super glue involved it’ll soften/dissolve it.
To Op you have quite the track record of purchases. This and your so called Branch Mint Proof.
Care to say purchase amount?
Live and learn?
The dot next to the D appears to be too close to it, and the one after the V isn't even there. I'm in the added VDB or MM crowd.
I would not suggest any sort of contact effort to check if authentic because you risk damaging it. The detailed analysis using provided resources should reveal its authenticity. If it appears to be one of the authentic variations send it in for grading.
Where’s @Insider2?
He was last seen ducking this discussion this afternoon. Probably OK, The Image is too blurred to tell for sure. If the edge is sharp and shiny, that's a bad sign.
I hope I'm wrong but I'm voting against it being authentic.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Rather than tinker with the coin, suggest sending it for authentication. Might also be good to let the seller know you are doing that -- sometimes it causes a "change of heart" and interesting things happen.
The spacing between the dot and D is not right for the S-VDB. It is much like the Philly VDB (below).
The position of the S is closest to die 4. Here is an animated gif of die 4 and OP's coin.
Looks like a Philly VDB with an added MM.
Lance.
(edit typo)
Nice work @Ikeigwin
This is the way the Mint proved that the 1959 " mule" was a counterfeit. Note how the date numerals stay fixed in all the images as they change. When the mule was viewed with a genuine 1959, they could see that the die was not the same due to the transfer process used to create the fake.
PS I'll need to look into that "dot" position you mention. It may be a really good diagnostic.
Now that I am home and have access to my reference material I have no problem saying this is not genuine.
It might be a real 1909-S with VDB added, I recall looking into this a while back and determining that the 4 S-VDB mint mark positions were also on the no-VDB, or really close. The size, shape, and position of VDB look good to me though; maybe somebody wants to overlay that. OP coin on left, real no-VDB on right.
I would refer to this. There are only 4 known die pairs for authentic SVDB's. All 4 have a small die chip in the top of the S.
All 4 are shown here. https://www.pcgs.com/news/Counterfeit-Vs-Authentic-1909-s-Vdb-Lincoln-Cents. With the Chinese having free reign copying anything they want, they don't have to glue on legends, they make their own dies. They are getting better and better every day with the massive funding from Ebay, Etsy, Amazon et.al. helping them market their crap.
TPG is the only way to be sure.
http://www.silverstocker.com
Anyone can PM me Any Time about Any thing.
I'm in the not real camp
the dot between D and B looks its from Philly
No good. Dot between the D and B is in the wrong place. Surface looks processed to me. Is this a sandwiched coin? What does the edge look like?
Collector, occasional seller
Not your average counterfeit from China.
I haven't given this a good look. But I would question why anyone would mess with a valuable 09-S to turn it into an S-VDB worth only marginally more.
Lance.
"why anyone would mess with a valuable 09-S to turn it into an S-VDB"
Genuine coin was used to copy but was not harmed doing so.
A quick search brought this up. Almost anything for $67.50. And it looks like it includes our host’s slabs.
——-
“I am a Chinese coin collectors,I have a factory of production coin.
I could provide the best coins and best service for you.”
“All the pictures are taken ourselves. For most coins we sell, we have more than one. After we sold one coin, we relist the same listing and use the same/ So you may not receive the same coin as in the picture, however the coin you’ll receive will be in the same condition or even better in condition as the coin in the picture. The coa No or the coin No will be randomly selected if it is not declared clearly in the description.”
https://m.aliexpress.com/storesearch/list/.html?sortType=TC3_D&searchType=storeSearch&trace=store2mobilestoreNew&storeId=412632#!
Depressing to look at... even more depressing reading some of the feedback by buyers.
Maybe you can elaborate on the copy method and how the VDB was added?
And why not get the VDB right? The position of the dot between D and B, vis-a-vis the Philly and SF coins, is pretty well known.
Lance.
Just me speculating. But price guide for 63RD shows $475 vs $2100, so there might be enough incentive there.
"Maybe you can elaborate on the copy method and how the VDB was added?"
Anything I could say would just be a guess without the coin in hand.
The section on transfer die maybe involved here.
https://www.pcgs.com/News/The-Fundamentals-Of-Counterfeit-Detection--Part-1
Usually counterfeit 1909-S VDB cents are either struck from false dies or they take common genuine 1909 VDB cents and attach an S mintmark using glue or solder. I've never heard of taking a genuine 1909-S which is a relatively expensive coin and adding a near microscopic "V.D.B." which would seem to be a very difficult undertaking to accomplish in a convincing manner.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just judging from the pictures, this is a coin I would not purchase....While not a 'S-VDB' expert, there are enough red flags even for me to skip this one....Cheers, RickO
Look real close. The "S" is very slightly slanted on die#3 on a genuine coin (which to me is the closest match).
The "dot" between the D and B is wrong. It's from a 1909 V.D.B. Philly coin.
You have a genuine 1909-P V.D.B. with an added mintmark.
Bummer.
Pete
I'm in the added mm camp as well. One thing that struck me on this piece was the coloring and the porous fields for a coin that has nice details.
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Wondering if this was sent to PCGS.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
V.D.B. looks like it was etched on as it's very rough and irregular. The S is in the wrong position for any of the three known positions of S mintmark for 1909 S-V.D.B.
Now, there are 6 mintmark positions for 1909-S. If that mintmark doesn't fall off after soaking the piece in acetone it could be a genuine 1909-S that has had a V.D.B. added by acid etching. Won't hurt the piece a bit to soak in acetone if done properly.
I would let the piece soak for an hour or so in acetone. Then try to gently push the mintmark off with a toothpick unless of course it hasn't fallen off while soaking. Can't get the mintmark off after soaking in acetone? Think genuine 1909-S was used to make this fake.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Let’s ask.
@Barucci911 Any updates? Sent it anywhere to get authenticated?