What is going on with this 1909 SVDB Lincoln MS64RD??
Edthelorax
Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
I want to believe I am missing something but can't convince myself that I am.
This 1909-S VDB currently on Ebay is in a PCGS holder with a grade of MS64RD.
I wouldn't grade this as a RB let alone red.
I wouldn't grade it a 64.
Even with the lower quality images the coin has the appearance of a counterfeit. Actually, I would bet a 09SVDB on it.
If you look the cert# up on Coinfacts, you can find the listing from the last time it sold on Ebay just over a month ago.
This points to the current seller not being involved with that coin in that holder, but possibly knowing it is fake by taking a loss in a month. I think the holder and the coin are fake because there is no way anyone would holder that coin as a 64RD IMHO.
The MM is wrong and the reverse is easier to pick apart because of the better images.
The current Ebay listing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-PCGS-MS64-LINCOLN-CENT-RARE-KEY-DATE-CERTIFIED-COIN-WONT-LAST-PRICE/192898964669?hash=item2ce9ac9cbd:g:UcQAAOSwCrtcwlIv&LH_BIN=1
The listing from 3/16/19:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cent-PCGS-MS-64-/223443772367?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
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Comments
The holder is fake.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
The coin and holder are both fake.
Counterfeit coin and holder. The lettering on the holder is wrong and reverse has the usual Chinese shoe polish toning. The obverse is not shown in detail because would not hold up to close-up scrutiny.
Looking at the seller’s other auctions I agree that the seller probably does not know coins. But knows enough to try and fake it.
IMO
It's too bad Ebay doesn't care about counterfeits, coins, or us.
They will take down the listing when they are forced to and that is all. I wil; l try to get it removed before it sells. Poor guy trying to sell it, he is probably going to get stuck with a $1500 loss. Ebay will get the $150 from the last sale, probably $150 from this sale and maybe even a couple more times too.
If it sells like the counterfeit SVDB did last night before Ebay did anything, it will be up to the buyer to know enough to return it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cent-wheat-penny-i-got-this-one-from-the-Antique-store-/202661569056?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
I bet Ebay is going to let this one run too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202660092094?ul_noapp=true
Often I wonder why I waste so many hours playing Whack-A-Mole getting these removed all the while helping ebay keep their site clean so they can profit from my buying.
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Counterfeit coin in fake holder. Good chance both sellers know what they have. All of these will have the same number on the slab so sellers may not know each other or be working together.
SOLD
Ebay is making a mint off of ruining our hobby. This can and should be prevented. I am doing what I can to stop it and so are a few others. Taking down a few listings just so they can be re-listed is NOT working.
Anyone that wants to force things to change can PM me. Collectively we can stop this.
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Such a shame.... and it hurts the hobby and the individuals that buy these coins...some may just be angry enough to leave the hobby... Cheers, RickO
Such an obvious fake to most of us on this forum but uninitiated buyers on eBay are being taken for as ride every day. We need to be diligent and report these things when we see them. We can't catch them all but every one we do will help.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
my first thought is it's fake
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
RE:
Ebay is making a mint off of ruining our hobby. This can and should be prevented. I am doing what I can to stop it and so are a few others. Taking down a few listings just so they can be re-listed is NOT working.
Anyone that wants to force things to change can PM me. Collectively we can stop this.
Why do you use Ebay? Stop immediately. When you have, then you can say you are "doing what I can".
Bummer to see that
eBay constantly removes counterfeits. I don't know why anyone thinks that is such an easy job. They need to verify the problem with any coin reported.
The only thing they could do slightly better about is removing repeat offenders. But they have shut down a lot of people. I'm not sure how some of the people have skated through. But it is a much harder job than you think.
disagree
I spend many hours a week looking for counterfeits so that Ebay will remove them. At least they will take them down unlike other sites. My complaint is that they allow sellers to continue even after having dozens of listings removed. Like this seller for example has had many listings removed, yet they continue to list fakes. How many can you find? I'm not that good, LMK so they can be removed please.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_sop=10&_ipg=200&LH_PrefLoc=2&_ssn=1516mn27_0&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true
I know it isn't easy, I help do it for them. Ebay doesn't have a single coin expert on staff any more. They rely on numismatists that care about the hobby to do it for them. People skate through because Ebay won't remove an offender after only 3, 7, or 10 violations, it takes more like 30 times being caught before they will close a seller account.
There is no way this should be allowed, they haveknown about the seller for months.
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I'm curious what PCGS is doing about this. I've seen these fake slabs on the Chinese website with PCGS blacked out. Like they're more afraid of getting busted for copyright infringement than counterfeiting.
I know our host here cares. I am so very grateful for this forum and the return of additional images on Coinfacts. Is there a way to alert them so that they can flag this cert# as a problem #?
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/28829024
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Yes. Call CS or PM @HeatherBoyd.
Contact Us
You can reach the PCGS customer service department Monday - Friday 7:00am - 5:00pm Pacific Time.
In the United States call toll free at 800-447-8848. Outside the United States call 949-833-0600.
https://www.pcgs.com/contactus
@Hemispherical Done.
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"Is there a way to alert them so that they can flag this cert# as a problem #?"
Only problem with that is the bidders that are not smart enough to see problems with the coin & holder would most likely not be smart enough to check the cert #.
Copyright infringement is enforced, probably because movie studios have lawyers.
Counterfeiting is not enforced except in rare cases. My goal is to raise awareness until those responsible for enforcement are forced to start taking action. It wouldn't take much to put the fear of conviction into the sellers of this crap for it to make a huge difference.
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I look at so many counterfeits that Ebay's algorithms find them for me.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-AU55-San-Francisco-Mint-Copper-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent/312585476218?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=57475&meid=1355ed45206540aaaf56c6f775cca4c0&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=223495156146&itm=312585476218&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
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Sad. Another example of 'buy the coin, not the holder/stickers'.
Wow...
Dave
Hello... apologies for resurrecting an old thread...
I AM THE GUY who bought one of these off of eBay in April 2019. I knew enough to check the cert with PCGS and it checked out. The coin was not bright red like I would expect from an MS64RD grade, but I had just assumed that the coin got a little browner in the slab.
I received the coin from the seller (who had decent feedback and was super communicative in 2019) and I put it away in the drawer for a couple of years. I now have a few bills due, and the 1909-S VDBs have climbed in value a bit, so I thought I'd pull it out and sell it. I guess I must have been super busy at the time, because now that I'm slowing down to look at it, many things about the coin look wrong. The color is off, the surface is off, and when I compare the slab side-by-side with other PCGS slabs, there are issues.
The corners of the slab are more rounded, the slab is thinner, there is cracking and crazing along the sides of the slab, and the label font is wrong in many ways. However, the hologram looks really good.
I could kick myself! That's a $1,500 mistake I made. I won't perish from losing $1,500, but it sure stings a lot. Thank goodness I didn't simply post the coin on eBay tonight. I would have been responsible for selling a counterfeit.
I found this thread by typing the cert number into Google. I guess going forward, especially on eBay, I will check the cert number with the TPG, and I will also Google the cert number to see what else shows up. In fact, more copies of this same coin, with the same number and the same bad slab and bad label are still for sale on Aliexpress for $125.
A previous poster suggested that it would be great if PCGS could somehow flag the cert lookup for known counterfeits. While there truly is a legit 1909-S VDB floating around out there with this cert number, it would be great to see a note on the verification site that indicates known counterfeits with that cert number are around.
Lesson learned. Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder for occasional hobbyists like me. I hope this can help the next guy. Ugh.
^
And this is why the fight to eliminate these fake slabs/coins from the market is so vital.
peacockcoins