1795 'MS61' Half-Dime in Stacks Bowers Baltimore Sale May 23
grivennik
Posts: 29 ✭
NGC grade far too low. This is my coin and it has ALL hair strands separate (which even 'MS67' graded coins don't have), sharp leaf veins, feathers on chest, and ultra-sharp eagle feathers. Excellent surfaces, and beautiful toning. Dreadful reverse photo online.
See photos of it, taken with my old cheap camera - contact me: frmnmich@btinternet.com
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Comments
This one ? https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-IAUQ2
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
This one? https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-IAUQ2
Yeah, what he said.
Collector, occasional seller
Like I always say, the coins collectors tend to overgrade the most are those with unoriginal surfaces but few marks
A coin with a great strike can still get a low MS grade for other reasons (cabinet friction, cleaning., other problems that may cause a net grade). Your coin "LOOKS" under graded. Unfortunately, without the coin in hand...
Nevertheless, with a coin as pleasing as this, unless a group of bidders cuts up the auction to keep the price of your coin low, it should bring good money. If it were mine, I'd let a major dealer place it for an agreed on price I was satisfied with or put a reserve on the coin.
If you think your coin is under graded why didn’t you have it regraded or sent to PCGS before consigning? I’m not even going to mention CAC.
How can I post my own photos here?
Actually, if you compare it to the 1794 MS-62 in the same auction, it pales in comparison.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-IAVKZ
It is better than the 1794. I have photos to prove it, but don't know how to put them up here. The surfaces are original. NGC would have said, if they weren't.
Not necessarily. I’ve seen many coins, especially from this era where most pieces have had something done to them at one time or another, with something less than original surfaces. Sometimes a lot less than original.
To post photos, look at the toolbar buttons above the blue text box when you are creating a post.
The buttons start with B I S and the button on the right is a box photo of a mountain with a moon in the corner.
Click on this button to choose a photo or photos to attach to your post.
This is the coin; and my camera is old.
Too bad NGC doesn't take better full slab shots. Here is the cert page.
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4842890-001/61/
Collector, occasional seller
Well, you are incorrect if you believe that NGC (or PCGS) would necessarily note a coin with non-original surfaces. They both certify such coins all the time, if they think the manipulation is within market acceptance, and neither notes it on their slab. Good luck with your sale, but on a coin such as this I would have strongly recommended a trip to CAC because for a few dollars you may have netted a fair bit more than that in bidding activity.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Current Bid $130
How do you know it hasn't been?
Honestly, I would have graded it AU58, so I think 61 is a gift. But that is a market 61 these days
Having participated in many auctions, I would not be concerned. Usually most of the bidding occurs in the last couple of minutes before the hammer falls. A $130 bid at this point means nothing.
Actually not! According to the ANA Grading Guide and seen in the market a totally unoriginal coin (continuous hairlines over surfaces) that has been improperly cleaned can straight grade in low MS.
The Stack's auction turned this thing into a real beauty!
Hi. Welcome to the forum. Cool coin. Nice advertisement.
As I have said, ownership adds a point or more. Still a pretty nice coin.
The low grade on this piece, relative to the amount of detail, probably has something to do with a lack a luster due to cleaning.
I purposefully stated the CAC portion of my response as a recommendation because I have no way of knowing if the coin has or has not been to CAC already. However, my gut reaction to the lot listing is that the auctioneer would have been remiss not to have sent a coin of this price level to CAC already.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
That looks like a great coin to me, which should have graded higher than 61.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I'm high bidder.
I would be very surprised if Stack's didn't send it to CAC. In which case, contrary to the OPs pronouncement, this coin isn't even a top end 61 much less higher.
That holder is doing that poor little coin no favors
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@grivennik .... Welcome aboard....Nice coin, but looks fairly graded... Cheers, RickO
Looks like 61 is a gift, and highly doubt it would CAC.
JMHO
edited to remove disagree - big like for that 62 and agreed.
Thanks MF
More than a point or two. Five is a better average, in my professional opinion, for all owner-graded coins.
Back when I was grading I would have called this an AU-58 at best.
sucks that the prong is covering up the cud on the obverse
I wouldn't try to grade. I compared online photos of other 1795 Half-dimes with my own, and saw none - of any MS grade - as sharp as mine. Try doing that.
Even using my amateurish equipment, my photos show my coin having far better details. and, as the cataloger wrote, '....with an uncommonly smooth appearance for the assigned grade'.
If mine is correctly graded, there have been an awful lot which were overgraded.
Details and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks
"Sharp" is only one part of the grade.
Thank you for acknowledging this.
I bought it in an auction in Britain, where I live.
You are talking to a bunch of people who have each graded dozens if not hundreds of these coins. I'm sure your COMPLETELY objective comparison of internet photos is superior to hundreds of years of cumulative grading experience involving thousands of coins.
This part is funny:
"Charming steel-olive surfaces also reveal splashes of reddish-apricot patina here and there around the peripheries."
Has the coin been dipped in olive oil, or possibly it fell into someone's apricot tart while on The Great British Bake Off ?
Here are the SB images at their full published resolution (slow loading). Right-click to upload to your computer for a sharper view. This might help members with their comments about the coin.
Still looks like a market 61 to me, maybe 62 on a lucky day.
IMO, either "commercial" grade is correct for this AU-58 coin.
A coin doctor would grade 59 thinking he could tone it and get it into a 63 holder, but only if he could buy it at 53 money, because the reverse is very lightly cleaned and won't take color well. I guess the rub counts a little bit too, but not if the toning goes well
However, I can't grade from pictures
I hope you do well.
Whoever noted the (lack of) importance of anything reasonable being bid online more than four hours before an auction session was on target. It is more the case than not that we see a coin listed at the start of the auction as having a bid of $1,650 then rocket to $$4,000 and grind its way to $6,000
Amazing !!!
Technically as to wear it's a 58.
@ColonelJessup Are you professing to having coin doctoring skills?
I think you guys are all nuts trying to pick out 58 from 61 on a coin minted in 1795 from pictures
@scubafuel said: "I think you guys are all nuts trying to pick out 58 from 61 on a coin minted in 1795 from pictures."
It's usually very easy. Lots of us "NUTS" who have been examining coins very closely
for decades know what and where to look for evidence of the friction wear (say that fast three times) that is called "cabinet friction." If you are not color blind, look for the change of color on the high points where the original surface is no longer original.
After we see it, we need to ignore our personal beliefs/standards and apply the prevailing standards of "modern" times so folks will not actually consider us to be "NUTS!" In this case (as I wrote above) this technical graded AU-58 is correctly graded as an MS-61 or MS-62. That's just my nutty opinion.
Since John Albanese asked me to be on the PNG Coin Doctor Definition task force as a technical consultant (@MFeld a valued member too) and I irregularly discuss and consult with him, you should assume I am in possession of such skills. I am not currently demonically possessed by that fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. and I no longer writhe in agony as I let each opportunity to violate another piece of sacred metal pass me by.
Hours by appointment only
I taught some basic tricks to students at ANA Summer Seminar so that they would recognize what poorly-doctored coins might look like.
Someone else here must know how to make money off of 89-CC $1's in strong AU details with light cleaning at below XF bid. That would be a very rapid immersion in bleach followed by a rapid immersion in EZ-Est. Really masks the cleaning well without significantly reducing the rest of the reflectivity. Usually turn out 53. Maybe two a year at most when I was looking for them intently in every auction. I may have stopped paying attention in 2013.
Did I say that out loud?
Yes you did say that out loud and I am shocked! Hope it's a learning lesson for those who participate here!
Excellent post BTW!