Do you think the amount of magnification used to **GRADE** a genuine coin should be restricted?
Insider2
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We all use different powers of magnification and different devices to examine our coins. The ANA and the coin grading guides have suggested a maximum power of magnification and so have the TPGS. I believe 4X to 7X are the most commonly applied powers we read about. What do you think? Should there be a standard for the coin market and at the TPGS? What type of magnifier do you commonly use to examine your coins and what power of magnification is it.
I've posted some general answers for the poll but your personal opinion is more important after you vote. Please remember that no mention of the magnification needed for authentication is necessary. Thanks
Do you think the amount of magnification used to **GRADE** a genuine coin should be restricted?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Comments
I’ve been informed that the TPGs use no magnification, so I’m tossing it out there. Except maybe for determining FB on a Mercury dime.
How often do you use a binocular microscope when grading?
Some people with excellent loupes don’t see as well as others do with unassisted vision. At least that’s what I’ve observed over many years while doing spine and hand surgery.
I don’t see a compelling reason to mandate or stipulate how a professional grader does his work. Nobody tells me what to use in the operating room and what we do seems at least equally important.
@planetsteve said: "I’ve been informed that the TPGs use no magnification, so I’m tossing it out there. Except maybe for determining FB on a Mercury dime.
How often do you use a binocular microscope when grading?"
Trust me, you do not want to know the answer to that question.
I know that you grade with a microscope, Insider, but I could never do that. Using a scope for grading would be like getting lost in forest for me. I am near sighted and can see more things with my naked eye than most people. I use nothing, 3X or a 10X to look for cleaning or counterfeits. I have a scope at home, but once more it's mainly for alterations and conterfeits.
Nearsighted guys like us are "blessed."
Everyone’s eyes are different. Magnification is, in some ways, the great equalizer. Take JA’s glasses for example! I’m always amazed at the ability of some dealers to grade accurately without a glass. Me, I need every edge I can get. I once took a microscope to an auction preview, before deciding that was overkill. The key is consistency. Learn the standards, and use a consistent system when grading-sometimes hard to do on the bourse floor. At shows, I use a B&L 7 power.
Tom
For US coins I only buy graded coins. So, I'm buying on eye appeal, which doesn't really call for a loupe. However, I do use a loupe if something doesn't look right and for proofs to judge the degree of hairlining. It would be an insult to the professionals to say that I "grade" coins in the numerical sense, except for fun as in GTG.
What ever it takes to get the job done. Jmo
I can see someone, somewhere, sometime floating the idea that the next big thing in assessing and determining the grade (condition, or state of preservation) of a coin is viewing same and any toning that has developed on same at the molecular, atomic or even subatomic level.
In the never ending competition to have the best of the best coins, collectors may want a condition report on each coin that they acquire which includes Scanning Electronic Microscope photographs and the results of other cutting edge testing technology.
If one molecule or atom or proton, neutron, electron, or quark of the material in a coin is misaligned; or if toning is determined to be of a substance which falls outside of what would be present in a coin that has NT, then the coin, no matter how eye appealing would have to be rejected.
No truly enlightened, sophisticated collector whose standards are impeccable would allow any coin other than the best of the best of the best to reside in his or her collection.
As I typed the above I thought about whether my speculations could ring true with someone who collects.
At first I thought, no..........................., but then I thought about it again and admitted to myself that it would not surprise me to see a collector have the mindset described above [I have seen this mindset in the area of real estate disputes that end up in court, many times because the persons simply refuse to live within their means because they want to keep up with and even be ahead of their neighbors].
I use a 10x after a visual inspection under good lighting.
It is my understanding that graders usually don't go more than 10x.
I will take a lot of time with a coin as opposed to grader who only takes a few seconds.
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I don't think you need worry about that idea "floating" into the market. IMO, the next big ripple will come when folks decide to differentiate between Mint State coins as they are today and truly Mint State coins with no "Cabinet Friction" as its called. I proposed this idea twice in the past. Identifying true MS coins. It's a stupid idea that will never work because it would have a similar affect as the CAC sticker only hundreds of thousands more coins would be impacted.
Best to leave things as they are with a slowly evolving standard.
I'm near sighted so I don't really need magnification to grade most coins. I do use a loupe to look for tooling, hairlines, and other problems which I consider to be a integral part of the grading process. A good light source is every bit as important as a good magnifier. I use an incandescent or halogen light for grading and a florescent light for authenticating coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think that 5x in most cases is fine but, there are times more is needed,
Eye appeal don’t need any magnifying!
My most commonly used loupe is 10x with a light built in. I don't always use the light but I often do. Sometimes, to get a clear understanding of a coin, I will use it both with and without the light.
However, I will say it is a bit of overkill. With 10x and the LED light you can see every little thing.
I have another loupe which is I believe 7x and that one gives me a more natural view of the coin, imo.
As long as the TPGS is satisfied with the grader's performance, why should it matter what tool(s) the grader chooses to use?
Electron microscopes should be used. That way misplaced atoms can be detected.
That's funny.
One day in the near future, many here will be wringing their hands because very few peeps have studied coins for authenticity in the past using an SEM. Of course, when those "perfect" counterfeits get cheap enough we'll all be able to assemble wonderful Type Sets. Do I care? No, I won;t be around.
When you whip out an electron microscope, I think you have gone too far and are splitting hairs.
For me, I examine coins with no magnification to get an overall "feel" or "big picture" and then use 5x to look for ticks or hairlines.
I don't think it MATTERS what magnification you use...as long as you are consistent.
Someone grading with a 2x magnifier will see a different coin than the guy using the 16x. But if they are serious about being a grader, they will translate what they see to what the standard is, (at their magnification), and should be able to consistently determine a grade reasonably close to each other..
One guy will see little ticks....the other gaping gashes. One will know that X number of little ticks = MS65...the other will know that X number of gaping gashes = MS65.
I'm very nearsighted and can see details of a coin that "normal" sighted folks would need a glass to see.
So I agree that in this business nearsighted folks are blessed.
I rarely use magnification for grading... I do use it to scrutinize certain details or conditions. I would not think that graders would need magnification generally... however, there are always situations that challenge the skills of even the best... so 5X should certainly fill the need. Cheers, RickO
I have a 60 X 100 hand scope - use it a lot on stuff - it never lies.
WS
I use whatever magnification I deem appropriate. I like to know what I am buying as I have to live with the consequences. I doubt my view of magnification flies with the so called experts that constantly remind me I am using the wrong magnification, the wrong loupe in the wrong lighting and I politely remind them who is buying the coin.
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I picked "whatever it takes". If you're not Superman, can anybody really tell wear from weak strike on the hair of a Barber dime without magnification? And since a "grade" involves potential "details", what magnification limit should be set on determining altered surfaces, tooling, repairs?