Why is it legal for collectors to own this coin, or is it??
BUFFNIXX
Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭
Why can collectors own this 1913 liberty head nickel but not the 1933 double eagle?
Would seem to me that the secret service could show up some day at a future ANA convention and scoop up any
1913 liberty head nickels that happened to be in attendance!
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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I never understood the logic there either.
What’s the problem😂
Makes sense to me🤪
The answer to your question is that the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel has escaped being placed on the Treasury Department's numismatic hit list. There is no statutory law that makes the 1933 Saints illegal either. Rather, the government has declared them "stolen" and seized the pieces at will, forcing people to defend their claims in court.
Because it is made of nickel and not silver or gold?
There legally in limbo if the government changes there mind they could go after them
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I'd be generally ok with the government confiscating the 1913 Liberty Nickels and 1894-S Barber Dimes, among others. They were originally coined in a deceptive manner.
Actually, I'm not sure that the government can even prove that the U.S. Mint struck those coins. So, they could be patterns, they could be counterfeits, they could be accidental strikes. Does anyone really know where they came from?
To that end, if they cared enough they could probably make a determination that they were counterfeits or stolen and then seize them. But I don't think they have any official standing at the moment.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You are sadly mistaken
Do tell why? Samuel Brown was a seller of all 5 examples of the 1913 Nickels at one point. He also worked at the mint. Have either of these facts been debunked?
I'll admit I was wrong about the 1894-S, they actually served a purpose.
The situations concerning these and several other extremely rare or 'controversial' coins are constantly being confused by collectors. Hence, the interminable repetition of the same questions that can be answered by reading modern factual research rather than accepting speculation and ignorance as truth.
The similarities between 1913 Liberty nickels and 1933 double eagles are: they are both round, and both are made of metal.
So you’re completely wrong about half your assertion and repeating an unfounded wive’s tale about the other half....other than that, I guess you’re spot on.
Yes, I admit my recollection regarding the 1894-S was incorrect.
Are you disputing that Samuel Brown didn't own the coins and work at the mint?
@RogerB, can you set the record straight?
No, I’m saying no one knows the circumstances surrounding the production of the 5 coins. They could have been legitimate test pieces subsequently awarded to a long term employee (or some other equally benign circumstance). Innuendo and supposition is not enough to convict in this instance ...which is why the Mint Director in the past has specifically stated they have no intention of going after the coins.
One small difference (perhaps) is that "authorized" possession of the 1933 double eagle was preempted by a gold ban. It seems the feds were loaded for bear on this one from the start.
I don't necessarily agree with it but the gold 1933 $20 was targeted for confiscation early on.
Can we please just not make comparisons such as this? And then to see this discussion go further on the rocks by bringing other coins that involve different facts and circumstances into the mix completes the train wreck.... The Government has been on notice of the 1894-s Barber Dime and the 1913 Liberty Nickel for well in excess of 100 years. So the idea of confiscation today just does not pass the straight face test for whatever reason as the time to do that has come and gone.
The 1933 Double Eagle has been the subject of litigation and discussed on this forum to the point that revisiting the subject would be counterproductive...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
A U.S. Government bureaurcrat found out that he could make his career by going after these coins. It took little imagination on his part. It was just a matter of big brother flexing his might. That legacy has been extruded to another generation of bureaucrats. The fact that the policies of the iconic Franklin Roosevelt were involved have been undoubtedly in the mix.
The public has not benefited one bit from these confiscations and legal maneuverings. It’s simply a matter of big government saying, “I can do this, and there is nothing you can do about it.”
RE: 1913 Liberty Nickels. TDN's comment is on point "I’m saying no one knows the circumstances surrounding the production of the 5 coins."
RE: 1933 Double Eagles. They were produced exactly like all other regular issue double eagles. FDR's gold hoarding EO had no effect on them. After the Gold Act of 1934, they were, again, handled the same as other DE. The "1933" DE had no more significance than any other DE until Leland Howard's ignorant and incompetent allegations of 1945. No pieces were ever reported missing at any time including at the 2011 trial. If nothing is missing, nothign can have been stolen and the government conclusively showed no loss of gold. How a jury could decide against the Langboard family is not knowable. But neither can I understand many other things involving irrational group dynamics.
Now, since Omega $20s were struck on 50 peso planchets, can the Mexican government seize them...
Inquiring minds want to know...or I'll just wait for the movie
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I am not sure I understand this logic. The feds maintain that the 1933 $20 coins were never released prior to the gold ban and were therefore never legal to own. If the ban had not been imposed they would have been released, so of course the ban was a factor.
I do understand and agree with this logic, but unfortunately I was not on the jury.
Well, I have mixed feelings. I believe in the rule of law, but I also believe that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Mostly I wish the government would expend its energy fixing actual problems.
RE:
@RogerB said:
" RE: 1933 Double Eagles. They were produced exactly like all other regular issue double eagles. FDR's gold hoarding EO had no effect on them. After the Gold Act of 1934, they were, again, handled the same as other DE."
I am not sure I understand this logic. The feds maintain that the 1933 $20 coins were never released prior to the gold ban and were therefore never legal to own. If the ban had not been imposed they would have been released, so of course the ban was a factor.
No, your understanding of events and Treasury practice of the time is wrong.
During most of the 1920s and 1930s, the Treasury had US Mints produce double eagles. Nearly all DE made at San Francisco and Denver were immediately put in storage. The practice extended into 1933. This was done because the law required part of the specie backing for gold certificates to be in coin. But, merchants did not want the coins, and for much of the time, Philadelphia Mint output was sufficient for export requirements. Further, the practice of "earmarking" gold and making paper transfer - without actually shipping gold - facilitate much faster, safer and cheaper financial transactions.
Given economic conditions, past Treasury practice and applicable law, 1933 DE and 1933 E were handled normally and would have been treated just like those of any other year. FDR's EO did not stop production, it did not stop testing, it did not stop reservation for Annual Assay, it did not stop formal delivery, it did not stop anything the Mints usually did. In fact, more than a month after the first EO, Mary O'Riley, acting director of the mint had to write to Treasury asking for instructions -- the Mints are not mentioned or included.
Also - a coin was legal tender when the Coiner said it was AND when the Superintendent accepted delivery. These were done for all 1933 DE just as for every year before. ALL of this was standard practice and no coins were treated differently. When gold coins were melted en mass between 1934 and 1938, 1933 DE went to the crucibles the same as others in the vault. We know the date range -- possibly the day -- this was done.
Also, while we're at it, let's get the EO correctly understood. First, it prohibited the hoarding of gold; second, it exempted $100 in gold per person; third, it excluded coin collections both individual and institutional; fourth, it DID NOT prohibit or prevent circulation of gold coin (confirmed by decision of Treasury counsel).
Absolutely nothing about 1933 DE was different until Leland Howard promoted his ignorance as fact. (He is not the first Mint officer to do this. A. Piatt Andrew set up a "sting" operation in an attempt to ensnare collectors of certain pattern coins. Director Kimball tried to confiscate part of the Linderman pattern collection as "illegal." In these instances, smarter people in the Attorney General's office saw through the bogus claims and quashed the "coin grab." In 1945, the US was at war and Treasury Sec Morgenthau had more on his plate than a few gold coins, and did not intervene although he did not endorse Howard's actions.)
Samuel Brown did work at the mint. Other than that, not much else said is actually known for fact.
On my roku device there was a Smithsonian video about the double eagle. It was quite informative and about 30 minutes in length. The Smithsonian channel is free to download
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Smithsonian’s short take on the double eagle coin:
Teaser Intro.
“Years after all double eagles were supposedly destroyed, the Secret Service traces the reappearance of two of the rare coins back to a deal between jeweler Israel Switt and Mint cashier George McCann.”
https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/the-double-eagle-investigation/14773
Glad you were able to find it!!!. Not a ton of tv shows on coins that exist for information distribution
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I guess you would be okay with going after patterns, transitional strikes, errors, etc. too.
The Mint legitimately distributed many pattern coins to William Hartman Woodin so I don't think there should be any question about the legality of those.
The 1933 gold Double Eagle story is a sad tale of government over reach and excessive authority. There was no proven theft and there was ample opportunity for a legal transaction. I do not understand - and likely never will - the decision in the Langbord case. Cheers, RickO
I think a very unfortunate thing in the case is that one of the Langbord’s key expert witnessses (perhaps their most important one) was discredited by a forum post made here. I wonder if things would have turned out differently if that post had never been made, giving the witness more credibility.