@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
You don't have to be an expert in metals. You just need to know a very little bit about how coins are made. Dies wear are polished then wear some more. Not all the strikes off a single die have the same "grain". And a rusty die that has been cleaned won't have the same surface at all as the die when fresh. Look at some of the confederate restrikes from rusty dies. The surface differences are obvious.
And let's not forget that those 40 "perfect coins" would still have a 50 peso understrike that a real coin would not have.
@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
You don't have to be an expert in metals. You just need to know a very little bit about how coins are made. Dies wear are polished then wear some more. Not all the strikes off a single die have the same "grain". And a rusty die that has been cleaned won't have the same surface at all as the die when fresh. Look at some of the confederate restrikes from rusty dies. The surface differences are obvious.
And let's not forget that those 40 "perfect coins" would still have a 50 peso understrike that a real coin would not have.
50 pesos were likely used for the gold, but were certainly not used as directly as planchets. They would have had to be melted and remade into proper weight planchets. These planchets would have to be annealed. Also, striking the high relief $20 required numerous strikes to bring them up at the mint. I think a private strike would also have similar problems bringing up the design.
TTTT- The double eagle die records that were posted and removed are not the smoking gun that you (and us) hoped for.
The records were handwritten and what looked like it could have been "'67" or "'77" as a return date for the die was in fact "'07" in my opinion. We are looking at a cramped handwritten area that was written over a second time creating the confusion. I read it as the die was removed for about 2 weeks, and did not note where it went (home?).
Also, these records were for 1907 double eagle dies. Nowhere did I see that these were for High reliefs. In fact, the number of strikes from each die (maybe except the first?) was above the 11,250 coins struck, so we know that these weren't high relief dies.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
You don't have to be an expert in metals. You just need to know a very little bit about how coins are made. Dies wear are polished then wear some more. Not all the strikes off a single die have the same "grain". And a rusty die that has been cleaned won't have the same surface at all as the die when fresh. Look at some of the confederate restrikes from rusty dies. The surface differences are obvious.
And let's not forget that those 40 "perfect coins" would still have a 50 peso understrike that a real coin would not have.
50 pesos were likely used for the gold, but were certainly not used as directly as planchets. They would have had to be melted and remade into proper weight planchets. These planchets would have to be annealed. Also, striking the high relief $20 required numerous strikes to bring them up at the mint. I think a private strike would also have similar problems bringing up the design.
4T's has stated unequivocally that that is not what happened. He declares they were rolled flat, trimmed and annealed multiple times.
@sellitstore said:
TTTT- The double eagle die records that were posted and removed are not the smoking gun that you (and us) hoped for.
The records were handwritten and what looked like it could have been "'67" or "'77" as a return date for the die was in fact "'07" in my opinion. We are looking at a cramped handwritten area that was written over a second time creating the confusion. I read it as the die was removed for about 2 weeks, and did not note where it went (home?).
Also, these records were for 1907 double eagle dies. Nowhere did I see that these were for High reliefs. In fact, the number of strikes from each die (maybe except the first?) was above the 11,250 coins struck, so we know that these weren't high relief dies.
According to 4T's own testimony, the dies were recovered in the dark of night from a garbage dump after being improperly disposed of by a Mint employee who was supposed to, but didn't, cancel the dies first.
I'm not sure why anyone would expect to find a record of anything.
@drwstr123 said:
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
You don't have to be an expert in metals. You just need to know a very little bit about how coins are made. Dies wear are polished then wear some more. Not all the strikes off a single die have the same "grain". And a rusty die that has been cleaned won't have the same surface at all as the die when fresh. Look at some of the confederate restrikes from rusty dies. The surface differences are obvious.
And let's not forget that those 40 "perfect coins" would still have a 50 peso understrike that a real coin would not have.
50 pesos were likely used for the gold, but were certainly not used as directly as planchets. They would have had to be melted and remade into proper weight planchets. These planchets would have to be annealed. Also, striking the high relief $20 required numerous strikes to bring them up at the mint. I think a private strike would also have similar problems bringing up the design.
4T's has stated unequivocally that that is not what happened. He declares they were rolled flat, trimmed and annealed multiple times.
Correct. And based upon my experience as an Authenticator, this would not have obliterated all of the original designs on every coin.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
It was called the 50 dollar Mexican Peso. It was also 22k, a bit bigger than the 1904, and was readily available and cheap. It would need to be rolled by a roller to flatten it and squish it down and it would need to be milled to the right diameter, but you then had the proper gold and size. The only downside was this coin would go thru a lot of annelling (sic) before it was finished that presented a slight problem.
Bonanno amassed a huge amount of 50 peso Mexican gold coins to be used as blanks for restrike
You have bags of pesos, you have pesos pancaked, you have mistrikes (sic) or defects waiting to be pancaked
It (a peso) would need to be rolled by a roller to flatten it and squish it down and it would need to be milled to the right diameter,
He (Bonanno) gave me one of THOSE coins (a peso) before it was rolled into a pancake
There are a few more similar comments but I think it's pretty well established that, just as @jmlanzaf says, TTTT disagrees with EagleEye's assertion.
I don't agree that rolling the 50 Pesos and repeated restriking at high pressure would leave an undertype visible. We really don't know with trying and using the same planchets and a high striking pressure.
Gold is much softer than copper or even silver, where restruck coins sometimes (but not always) have a bit of the undertype visible.
@jmlanzaf It is necessary to comment on everyone else's comment, especially when you comments aren't relevant or add nothing. My previous post corrected a current misconception that TTTT might now have and is currently discussing. TTTTs original account is not the subject. We're talking about the mint $20 die records that were posted and removed a couple of days ago. This is why your final sentence makes no sense to me.
"I'm not sure why anyone would expect to find a record of anything." Uh, because they were posted and a subject of TTTTs latest posts.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
Good morning, well last night sure got people posting. lots to read. Had to swallow my pride last night for trying to get the wrong man (roger to repost something he never posted in the first place. Guess what, pride goes right down without choking and doesn't cause indigestion. Too much to address but I would like to stress one thing. Much of what I have told you about was my recollection of what others claim. Then forum members go nuts and say that's impossible or that would never happen and attack me. Case in point: a young man showed up in Tucson with a story. The story is unbelievable to many here. He produced a die set. He stuck around while it was evaluated. Joe Bonnano bought them. I can only pass on what I heard and saw. For all I know, this young man bought the die set on Amazon and then after he couldn't sell them on craigslist, he made up a story to entice JB. Now some go nuts on me and play jokes to fan the fire. How dare I impugn the integrity of this posters icons. I didn't, I just passed on what I was told. I also clearly remember a man identified as an expert to evaluate the die use the word "collapse". Now others argue that doesn't happen so lets shoot the messanger again. DCARR says metal does collapse and his description of what happens is very similar to what I was told. When they went it happened quick. The coins did not show a crack or rent or gaps, they progressively lost their quality to the point that were deemed very poor quality. I was not there, this is what was told to me. It is memorable because they initially worked and produced a handful of quality coins. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN KNOW WHY THE EXPERT WAS ABLE TO PREDICT COLLAPSE, BUT HE DID.
Some who absolutely are determined to undermine this story because they don't buy it engage in well known tactics to support their argument. Misquotes, misrepresentations, changing whole paragraphs of info or accusing me of destroying reputation by being a messenger. They also will never apologize when things they claim are impossible or wrong are indeed verified by other memebers. Metal collapses from fatique related to continuous exposes to extreme pressures.
The document that Kbbppl produced is critical because it shows for a fact that mint die walk out the front door unsecured. Maybe not the right die, but die go out. This young man claimed he was the son of a prominent Mint worker, this was confirmed by Bonanno. Did anyone ever consider that this young man made up the dump story as he didn't want to reveal that his dad stole them or copied them or did something very bad? Bonanno did his best to confirm as much as he could, but you can't confirm it all.
Lastly, Bonanno did not respond to an ad in the paper on how to get into the coin minting business. He was contacted by an individual who wanted to sell a possibly priceless item that only had value to certain people. I have no idea what he was thinking, but I never heard any talk about making coins until after he bought them. I remember that when they were revealed, they were considered treasure by everyone in the room. Think how you react when you first see a extremely rare, priceless coin. People gasp. I believe Bonanno just wanted to make sure they were real when an expert looked at them. It was this expert who claimed they were still usable and could produce coins. For all I knew, Bonanno was just a mint die collector. What happened after he bought them is because he bought them. I refuse to believe that he wanted to make coins in the first place and buying the die was his first move. I think he wanted to quick sell them for a small fortune, making coins was an after thought, but it was his possession of these die that moved him down that road. The die are irrelevant, a distraction? Are you also making a joke? Do u really believe that? Kbbppl you blame me for denigrating those who you believe are of utmost intergrity. Do you shoot the messenger of all news you don't like? Try swallowing your pride, you won't choke on it. I assure you I will accept your apology. For GODS sake, be the man that you are.
By the way RogerB, you denigrated my integrity because I wanted to make my country great again and serve my country. Did I miss your apology, what thread was it? Could you direct me to it? Are you going to answer my questions?
I hope the movie is less confusing then these threads
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@ChrisH821 said:
Please let's keep the drama out this time. That's what got the old thread deleted.
It isn't too much to ask.
and the politics.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
The coins were NOT STRUCK from a Mint die by 4T's own testimony. It's a distraction.
We will stipulate to the fact: a broken down U.S. Mint die appeared in Arizona in the 1960s.
Let's move on...
You were involved in getting the 50 tonne press. Can you tell us more about that? Maybe we can trace that angle.
I was being sarcastic. The story is that 40 "perfect" Omegas were struck and then the die collapsed. These perfect Omegas were struck from a collapsing die after the rust was cleaned off and have "grain" that perfectly matches originals.
I think that someone understanding the molecular structure of metals would be in position to answer that to satisfaction.
You don't have to be an expert in metals. You just need to know a very little bit about how coins are made. Dies wear are polished then wear some more. Not all the strikes off a single die have the same "grain". And a rusty die that has been cleaned won't have the same surface at all as the die when fresh. Look at some of the confederate restrikes from rusty dies. The surface differences are obvious.
And let's not forget that those 40 "perfect coins" would still have a 50 peso understrike that a real coin would not have.
50 pesos were likely used for the gold, but were certainly not used as directly as planchets. They would have had to be melted and remade into proper weight planchets. These planchets would have to be annealed. Also, striking the high relief $20 required numerous strikes to bring them up at the mint. I think a private strike would also have similar problems bringing up the design.
TTTT- The double eagle die records that were posted and removed are not the smoking gun that you (and us) hoped for.
The records were handwritten and what looked like it could have been "'67" or "'77" as a return date for the die was in fact "'07" in my opinion. We are looking at a cramped handwritten area that was written over a second time creating the confusion. I read it as the die was removed for about 2 weeks, and did not note where it went (home?).
Also, these records were for 1907 double eagle dies. Nowhere did I see that these were for High reliefs. In fact, the number of strikes from each die (maybe except the first?) was above the 11,250 coins struck, so we know that these weren't high relief dies.
4T's has stated unequivocally that that is not what happened. He declares they were rolled flat, trimmed and annealed multiple times.
According to 4T's own testimony, the dies were recovered in the dark of night from a garbage dump after being improperly disposed of by a Mint employee who was supposed to, but didn't, cancel the dies first.
I'm not sure why anyone would expect to find a record of anything.
Correct. And based upon my experience as an Authenticator, this would not have obliterated all of the original designs on every coin.
I will need the pops to watch your documentary ...... Welcome back and best of luck with the production!
@EagleEye Some quotes from @totellthetruth 's first time here:
It was called the 50 dollar Mexican Peso. It was also 22k, a bit bigger than the 1904, and was readily available and cheap. It would need to be rolled by a roller to flatten it and squish it down and it would need to be milled to the right diameter, but you then had the proper gold and size. The only downside was this coin would go thru a lot of annelling (sic) before it was finished that presented a slight problem.
Bonanno amassed a huge amount of 50 peso Mexican gold coins to be used as blanks for restrike
You have bags of pesos, you have pesos pancaked, you have mistrikes (sic) or defects waiting to be pancaked
It (a peso) would need to be rolled by a roller to flatten it and squish it down and it would need to be milled to the right diameter,
He (Bonanno) gave me one of THOSE coins (a peso) before it was rolled into a pancake
There are a few more similar comments but I think it's pretty well established that, just as @jmlanzaf says, TTTT disagrees with EagleEye's assertion.
I don't agree that rolling the 50 Pesos and repeated restriking at high pressure would leave an undertype visible. We really don't know with trying and using the same planchets and a high striking pressure.
Gold is much softer than copper or even silver, where restruck coins sometimes (but not always) have a bit of the undertype visible.
@jmlanzaf It is necessary to comment on everyone else's comment, especially when you comments aren't relevant or add nothing. My previous post corrected a current misconception that TTTT might now have and is currently discussing. TTTTs original account is not the subject. We're talking about the mint $20 die records that were posted and removed a couple of days ago. This is why your final sentence makes no sense to me.
"I'm not sure why anyone would expect to find a record of anything." Uh, because they were posted and a subject of TTTTs latest posts.
Good morning, well last night sure got people posting. lots to read. Had to swallow my pride last night for trying to get the wrong man (roger
to repost something he never posted in the first place. Guess what, pride goes right down without choking and doesn't cause indigestion. Too much to address but I would like to stress one thing. Much of what I have told you about was my recollection of what others claim. Then forum members go nuts and say that's impossible or that would never happen and attack me. Case in point: a young man showed up in Tucson with a story. The story is unbelievable to many here. He produced a die set. He stuck around while it was evaluated. Joe Bonnano bought them. I can only pass on what I heard and saw. For all I know, this young man bought the die set on Amazon and then after he couldn't sell them on craigslist, he made up a story to entice JB. Now some go nuts on me and play jokes to fan the fire. How dare I impugn the integrity of this posters icons. I didn't, I just passed on what I was told. I also clearly remember a man identified as an expert to evaluate the die use the word "collapse". Now others argue that doesn't happen so lets shoot the messanger again. DCARR says metal does collapse and his description of what happens is very similar to what I was told. When they went it happened quick. The coins did not show a crack or rent or gaps, they progressively lost their quality to the point that were deemed very poor quality. I was not there, this is what was told to me. It is memorable because they initially worked and produced a handful of quality coins. THERE IS NO WAY I CAN KNOW WHY THE EXPERT WAS ABLE TO PREDICT COLLAPSE, BUT HE DID.
Some who absolutely are determined to undermine this story because they don't buy it engage in well known tactics to support their argument. Misquotes, misrepresentations, changing whole paragraphs of info or accusing me of destroying reputation by being a messenger. They also will never apologize when things they claim are impossible or wrong are indeed verified by other memebers. Metal collapses from fatique related to continuous exposes to extreme pressures.
The document that Kbbppl produced is critical because it shows for a fact that mint die walk out the front door unsecured. Maybe not the right die, but die go out. This young man claimed he was the son of a prominent Mint worker, this was confirmed by Bonanno. Did anyone ever consider that this young man made up the dump story as he didn't want to reveal that his dad stole them or copied them or did something very bad? Bonanno did his best to confirm as much as he could, but you can't confirm it all.
Lastly, Bonanno did not respond to an ad in the paper on how to get into the coin minting business. He was contacted by an individual who wanted to sell a possibly priceless item that only had value to certain people. I have no idea what he was thinking, but I never heard any talk about making coins until after he bought them. I remember that when they were revealed, they were considered treasure by everyone in the room. Think how you react when you first see a extremely rare, priceless coin. People gasp. I believe Bonanno just wanted to make sure they were real when an expert looked at them. It was this expert who claimed they were still usable and could produce coins. For all I knew, Bonanno was just a mint die collector. What happened after he bought them is because he bought them. I refuse to believe that he wanted to make coins in the first place and buying the die was his first move. I think he wanted to quick sell them for a small fortune, making coins was an after thought, but it was his possession of these die that moved him down that road. The die are irrelevant, a distraction? Are you also making a joke? Do u really believe that? Kbbppl you blame me for denigrating those who you believe are of utmost intergrity. Do you shoot the messenger of all news you don't like? Try swallowing your pride, you won't choke on it. I assure you I will accept your apology. For GODS sake, be the man that you are.
By the way RogerB, you denigrated my integrity because I wanted to make my country great again and serve my country. Did I miss your apology, what thread was it? Could you direct me to it? Are you going to answer my questions?
I hope the movie is less confusing then these threads
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Please let's keep the drama out this time. That's what got the old thread deleted.
It isn't too much to ask.
Collector, occasional seller
and the politics.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I like chocolate chip cookies...
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I'm confused, is the movie about the Zodiac killer or the Omega double eagles?
I'm still rooting for guest appearance in the movie by some shapely molls.
Well, just Love coins, period.