Did you get out of your wheelchair?
Sellit..thank you...the thread indicated that he moved to Chicago and worked for the Chicago mob. In LA he would have been in the Jewish mob with Bugsy Siegal. The reason I asked was there is acceptance but friction and hard feelings between the organizations. It is not all kumbaya. Bonanno was New York Commission Mafia. Most people think of New York mob as the big boys on the block, but the Chicago mob was huge. The New York mob was dwarfed by the Chicago outfit in money and power. Peter Licavoli was the leader of the Detroit purple gang and they were affiliated with the Chicago mob and he also retired to Tucson. Licavoli's outfit was smaller than the Bonanno family but he had the Chicago mob credentials on his lapel. Bonanno was famous, after all, he was the Godfather. Interesting alpha male testosterone contention.
Lots of sneers, friction, but politeness to each others face and spitting on the ground when out of site. What does this have to do with the Omega coin Heather says. Well, as Bonanno's relationship with Battaglia began to sour badly, Batts knew he would someday be out and it would be suicide for a Bonanno soldier to follow Batts out the door. Batts needed new gumba's and he knew where to get them. It was a feather in Licavoli's cap that Batts was now running with Licavoli associates and it really p.o. ed JB. Batts at one time was his right hand man, his most loyal and his assassin. Now Batts is already diverting crimes to his brother John in LA. John is most likely LA Jewish mob or Chicago. Hope that helps Fred Weinberg.
1990 and I am practicing medicine in Tucson when a high ranking old time Licavoli soldier appears at my office. He is about 10 years older than me and we had always been very friendly to each other over the years despite the complicated relationship of JB an Licavoli. We are both thrilled and happy to see each other. Then he drops the bomb on me. In his car is a man very down on his luck who is sick with pneumonia. No money, no food, nowhere to stay and I am asked if I will help him out medically. I also know this man and we have always been friendly but he is a killer. He also was a high ranking associate of the Licavoli family. He had to be carried into the office and he had no idea who I was. I can not violate patient confidentiality so no names, but I agreed to treat him as an outpatient and he would live in the first mans house to get better. In 24 hours he was awake, alert and out of danger albeit, very weak. Most pneumonia is treated outpatient today unlike the old days. He was thrilled that I was there taking care of him and they always called me by my Irish name Patti. I made a house call daily for a week or so and we always sat around and talked of the old days. I enjoyed it very much. I had always been told who my dad and JB thought was involved in the murder of Newton Pfieffer so I brought up the subject. Without hesitation and while laughing about the incident, I was told Batts Battaglia.his brother (john), Jerry Paisley and one I won't name threw him out the window. You can read all about the crazy gang Batts and Jerry put together to murder Bonanno and his wife with a crossbow at the El Corral restaurant in Tucson. My brother and I are sure Pfeiffer was selling Omegas in 1968 now that we know when he was killed.
I found my notes I was keeping last year. I got to the timeline/notes part - the March 29, 1969 death of Pfeffer - said JB's gold coins were sold there prior/up to his death. Was this the ~40 original unmarked coins from the original dies, or part of the big batch of marked Omega coins from the new dies made?
Here is what i had last time, with Pfeffer's line inserted. I know you were recollecting the best you could last time for the actual years, and were basing some things on you starting to drive, and other events in your life - just curious now a year or so later how what I typed up from your comments still fit or need adjusted.
TIMELINE:
1907? - Mint employee disguises nearly used up production dies as being cancelled, which get disposed in the Philadelphia Town Dump under normal procedures (Except the dies weren't properly confirmed cancelled before leaving mint), where they're dug up, and held for many years by the mint worker.
Early 1967? - Relative (son?) of the prominent mint worker comes to Bonanno with the dies "I was present when a man produced to my father two chunks of metal each about the size of the head of a small sledge hammer. He called them transfer or production die." "THE METALLURGIST SAID THE DIE HAD A HIGH CARBON CONTENT" Man was in his late 30's or early 40's (so born approx ~1930) from the east coast. (Was told in person from the relative/mint worker about the dies) so mint worker/relative lived at least until at least ~1945 (Assuming a secret like this would be told to at least a teenager). Another clue: "It is 1907, and you a master engraver, maybe not the top but still a master engraver and you want these die as part of your collection at home". The Relative during his visit to Tucson to sell the dies was put up in a high end hotel for an extended stay during his vetting.
"At the time of the purchase of the die, an expert was brought in to authenticate them as genuine and remark on their condition. His opinion was they were real, used and could still produce coins. How many? Unknown. At that time, they were not collapsed or damaged in any way. Based on this mans assessment, Bonanno purchased the die. Never saw that man again. "
"I would like to address the dies I personally saw in my fathers office. They were in a briefcase and covered in cosmoline (gun grease), except the hub with the engraving. The hub had a mixture of Vaseline and wax."
"Everyone new the dies had a very limited life so sophisticated moldings were done as well as other technical procedures I was not made aware."
"Remember, before the die were used, various substances and resins were used to make impressions."
"The first new man to arrive was a retired mint worker who was a coin press operator and some sort of machine shop director or foreman. He also evaluated the die based on his experience of working with them. They were worn, but not worn out. They were also quite old and based on usage and age, he predicted they would fail. I believe that he predicted they would collapse."
Mid 1967? - 16 ton press owned by the Argentine government disappeared from a storage warehouse. shipped from Buenos Aires via truck and train all the way to Papadious Junk Yard on Stone ave. in Tucson, Az.
Late 1967? The original mint dies were polished by a metallurgist initially due to fine rust. Everyone knew the dies had a very limited life so sophisticated moldings were done as well as other technical procedures I was not made aware.
Late '67-Early '68? (Before March 1969) Approximately 40 1907s were produced with the original dies with no Omega mark(Tuscon Restrikes) using Mexico $50 Peso coins. "The coins were authenticated and sold. There were no critics. The experts deemed them authentic."
"The original die were used and did produce very acceptable coins initially. Then something happened. A failure of some sort occurred and the quality of the coins changed rapidly and then they were bad. I wasn't there and was only told this by my dad or JB. I did ask my brother what he remembered and he said one of the die collapsed."
"The die stunk up my dads office if that helps. The metallurgists opinion was that they collapsed. It began on one strike and progressed. You could not see it on the die that well, but the coins went from great to bad immediately. He predicted this would happen. Multiple impressions of the engravings were made of different substances and resins before they were used at his suggestion."
1968?. Bonanno has put together the equipment and the manpower. He has a pressman from a mint and mill man and a few others, but no master engraver. The expertise of the people he has is questionable when it comes to determining the quality of the first batch of around 40. He needs to sell these to recoup his money. This has been nearly a year in the making.
1968? Phase 2 - "downtime for preparations for the big blast" - The Syndicate was brought in and the operation was overseen by them.
1968? Master carver who worked for the Italian Mint arrived "The master coin engraver came well after the first phase". "you have one of the most talented master engravers in the world whose work is incredible". He was kept completely isolated from the production facility (apparently in Mr. B's house)
"the reduction transfer mill was used in a very unique way other than the way it was intended" and "The machine can be reversed with the aid of a master watch and clock technician. I am referring to a grandfather clock guy and the experts can explain. Has to due with gears. A skilled instrument technician could reverse the mill and feeler probe."
"Eventually, a new master hub was created. It was my understanding this hub had to be polished after about 500 coins were stamped"
"The master engraver stayed at Bonannos house. He sculpted the clay model that was about the size of a pizza. Two sets of "Wormy tool marks" were made on accident due to too much cognac by hitting the now produced die with his hammer."
"People are celebrating the near completion of a phase of a project and then it happens. Your employee has had more cognac than you knew. He shifts his weight, loses his balance for just a second while striking his tiny little die with his tiny little hammer and oh no. What happened? What do we do now? Oh well, the two little wormy intertwined marks can't be any worse than that "god damn flag waving in the wind" (Omega Mark).
1968? Approximately 20,000 Mexico $50 Peso coins procured
1968? til end - Production of approximately 19,900 Omega coins were sold to the public - Most through investment brokers or houses but also jewelry stores. TTTT also said "this was a hugh operation and one phone call shut it down. A trove of coins had never left the building" - Exact distribution # unknown
July 22, 1968 - Bonanno's house bombed
September 12, 1968 - Joseph Sebastian's Auto Body shop at 1920 N. Stone Avenue bombed (out-building on site was coin production facility)
Important because "when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production" and "Keep in mind that the bombings happened right around the same time of the coins being made.
March 29, 1969 - Newton S. Pfeffer died (Suicide/mob hit?) fall from the pioneer Hotel in Tucson. Pfeffer has sold the Omega's in his store - was this the ~40 original unmarked, or part of the larger marked group? - Likely the original 40, timeline puts the 19,900 after this.
1970? - All the equipment was destroyed and saw by TTTT - (Watched from roof, moved from Body Shop to junkyard, torched/cut up and crushed at junkyard).
1971 - August 10-14 - Omega 1907s appear at ANA Convention
? - The $3 Omega was not a Bonnano venture, but might be a Syndicate
Wow, that's a lot. Mostly right on. Couple of points. At the time of the purchase of the die, an expert was brought in to authenticate them as genuine and remark on their condition. His opinion was they were real, used and could still produce coins. How many? Unknown. At that time, they were not collapsed or damaged in any way. Based on this mans assessment, Bonanno purchased the die. Never saw that man again. The first new man to arrive was a retired mint worker who was a coin press operator and some sort of machine shop director or foreman. He also evaluated the die based on his experience of working with them. They were worn, but not worn out. They were also quite old and based on usage and age, he predicted they would fail. I believe that he predicted they would collapse. If he used other descriptors like crack or crumble etc...I don't know. I remember they were handled like precious glass. If damaged from a drop or bump would be a disaster. I can't tell you if the replica die were done or not, but a decision was made to use the original die when the press and men were ready to go. I believe they felt if there was an accident or mistake, it would be better to damage the original die than the new replica's. The engraver was a very difficult, complaining, lazy man. We called him the prima donna. I don't think Bonanno could have gone thru another round of waiting for this man to make a new set of die. The operation was far more expensive and time consuming than expected and JB wanted to recoup some money. The original die were used and did produce very acceptable coins initially. Then something happened. A failure of some sort occurred and the quality of the coins changed rapidly and then they were bad. I wasn't there and was only told this by my dad or JB. I did ask my brother what he remembered and he said one of the die collapsed. I have talked to a metallurgist as I had to testify in court about the injuries a mechanic suffered from a jackstand made in china that allegedly exploded and failed according to all witnesses. I specifically asked if metal could collapse and his answer was yes and that was his findings in this jackstand. According to him, with age and continued usage, some metal will fatigue in a manner where the space in the atoms of the metal is compressed and distorted. It is progressive and will eventually lead to rapid failure. In this case the jackstand exploded.
My brothers and I were used to drive these guys around, including to the shop. I have pictures of it from this weekend. I turned 16 in 1971, my oldest brother turned 16 in 67, 2nd oldest in 69. Put a big question mark next to the years in your timeline as they are only guestimates.
We all drove them or rode along.
No idea if the coins in Pfeiffers store were from original batch or later. I never saw or was ever told of anything related to sales or distribution. Only knew there was a very big distribution organization. Eagle Eyes and I both agreed, the infrastructure of people needed to distribute these coins thru out the U.S. and the years it went on for (and to have kept their mouths shut) must have been enormous and it would be very unlikely for this to have been done by a small group or lone wolf. The syndicate on the other hand was a very good candidate to have achieved this. That's enough.
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
@StrikeOutXXX said:
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
I did and it is linked in the other thread where many holes in the story are also discussed
During my time as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer you go thru extensive training which includes a lot of Federal Prosecutors who come in and lecture on their field of practice or expertise. This gave me the opportunity to ask some odd questions without revealing the nature as to why I was asking. The Supreme Court has ruled that items that are discarded and are commonly known as trash, rubbish etc are no longer the property of the owner once they leave the original owners property. Your trash out on the street is no longer yours and is free picking to the public.Trash is now part of the public domain and can be taken by anyone without fear of criminal prosecution. Possession is the law. Finders keepers really does apply as long as it was found in public domain. That includes items disposed of in a private or public dump. A private dump has slightly more rights. Possession of the original die was not a crime, nor where they stolen. They were discarded per procedure by the Federal government and were free to be taken by anyone who could have located them. Failure of the federal institution employee to damage them with a strike to make them unusable was also not a crime. Possible negligence, but intent is part of the law. If the person responsible for rendering them useless failed his duties unintentionally...too bad..no crime. Don't believe me, get a shovel and go up to the Carson City park, look for a 3 foot high rock wall and start digging. Whatever die you find, struck or unstruck is yours and you cannot be prosecuted for taking it or possessing it. The only possible crime is the deliberate actions of an individual who may have prevented the strike, or told an officer they had been struck etc. Once again without a confession of intent, no prosecutor would have touched the case. The worst case outcome was FIRE HIM.
@totellthetruth said:
During my time as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer you go thru extensive training which includes a lot of Federal Prosecutors who come in and lecture on their field of practice or expertise. This gave me the opportunity to ask some odd questions without revealing the nature as to why I was asking. The Supreme Court has ruled that items that are discarded and are commonly known as trash, rubbish etc are no longer the property of the owner once they leave the original owners property. Your trash out on the street is no longer yours and is free picking to the public.Trash is now part of the public domain and can be taken by anyone without fear of criminal prosecution. Possession is the law. Finders keepers really does apply as long as it was found in public domain. That includes items disposed of in a private or public dump. A private dump has slightly more rights. Possession of the original die was not a crime, nor where they stolen. They were discarded per procedure by the Federal government and were free to be taken by anyone who could have located them. Failure of the federal institution employee to damage them with a strike to make them unusable was also not a crime. Possible negligence, but intent is part of the law. If the person responsible for rendering them useless failed his duties unintentionally...too bad..no crime. Don't believe me, get a shovel and go up to the Carson City park, look for a 3 foot high rock wall and start digging. Whatever die you find, struck or unstruck is yours and you cannot be prosecuted for taking it or possessing it. The only possible crime is the deliberate actions of an individual who may have prevented the strike, or told an officer they had been struck etc. Once again without a confession of intent, no prosecutor would have touched the case. The worst case outcome was FIRE HIM.
The dies are a distraction. They didn't need them at all to make these coins. They were striking counterfeits with them so that is crime enough, if you want a crime. [Or, if you prefer, since the omega makes them not counterfeits they were just committing fraud with the dies.] But none of that has much bearing on the rest of the story. Ultimately, they made their own hub with an artist. They could have easily started with a real coin to do that work. In fact, since a real coin only would have cost a couple thousand bucks and would have been in better condition, they probably should have done that anyway.
There are enough crimes here anyway: fraud (or counterfeiting or counterfeiting AND fraud), smuggling, pedophelia, murder, loan sharking, bribery. Who cares if the dies were legal or illegal or even in existence at all?
Are there any other new details you have recalled that you can add to the story? For example, were any of the other Omega coins struck on the same press to your knowledge?
@jmlanzaf said:
The dies are a distraction. They didn't need them at all to make these coins. They were striking counterfeits with them so that is crime enough, if you want a crime.
But from a numismatic perspective, it's super interesting to imagine US Mint dies out there for these.
@jmlanzaf said:
The dies are a distraction. They didn't need them at all to make these coins. They were striking counterfeits with them so that is crime enough, if you want a crime.
But from a numismatic perspective, it's super interesting to imagine US Mint dies out there for these.
Except that part of the story has the least meat to it as that crime was committed 50 years before TTTT was born so we're not going to learn anything more about that. And all this "is it a crime or not?" is just empty discussion. There are sooo many crimes here, who cares if they stole the dies right out from under the sleeping Mint Superintendent's nose? By the time you've got murder, narcotics, smuggling etc...
@jmlanzaf said:
The dies are a distraction. They didn't need them at all to make these coins. They were striking counterfeits with them so that is crime enough, if you want a crime.
But from a numismatic perspective, it's super interesting to imagine US Mint dies out there for these.
Except that part of the story has the least meat to it as that crime was committed 50 years before TTTT was born so we're not going to learn anything more about that. And all this "is it a crime or not?" is just empty discussion. There are sooo many crimes here, who cares if they stole the dies right out from under the sleeping Mint Superintendent's nose? By the time you've got murder, narcotics, smuggling etc...
Perhaps it doesn't need to be in the movie as lots of things are often cut from movies to get a short plot together, but overall, I still think it's one of the most interesting things from a numismatics perspective.
The jeweler was helping JB. But the jeweler was killed by Batts Battaglia because of debts. Wasn't JB mad about this? Especially since Batts was working with Licavuli who was running Arizona and a direct competitor of JB?
Help please. There are 3 different threads going on at the same time about the Omegas. I was told that there is a post that is documented about an engraver taking a die set home. Is this true? Experts has claimed no die ever left the mint. When did the die leave the mint and wouldn't it be documented when they returned. Please clarify this post
Enough is enough! There is an individual on this site that I believe is deliberately trying to sabotage this conversation. If you don't believe, then don't. That's Ok with me. Many people are enjoying the story of the Omega and it makes them happy. It is good for the site. The historians were in Tucson this weekend and they were reading this forum and loved it. Please stop with your tactics. We know what you are doing and you can't play dumb. You engaged in these very same tactics last time to cause dissention and outright hostility. You have not changed. You earned your nickname last time. Stop with the made up facts, the misquotes, telling whole episodes of the story your way and not the way I told it. I know that you are intelligent, but these are tactics of the intellectually dishonest. I told this site I had an agenda for coming back and it is complete. I am still here as I enjoy talking about something so huge in my childhood. I had goosebumps and palpitations photographing JB's old house, the south face of the Pioneer Hotel, but I almost cried when we arrived at the shop where these coins were born. If you can't be honest, go away.
@StrikeOutXXX said:
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
In the above under 1969 you have Mexican $5 Pesos. Should be 50 Pesos.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@StrikeOutXXX said:
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
In the above under 1969 you have Mexican $5 Pesos. Should be 50 Pesos.
Drats - I fixed it earlier in 1 spot, missed the 2nd, thanks.
In the year+ since this came about - I read some posts from folks who desired to get an Omega, normal 1907 $20, as well as a $50 Peso gold coin of the era scanned or analyzed for some actual scientific reference points.
@StrikeOutXXX said:
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
In the above under 1969 you have Mexican $5 Pesos. Should be 50 Pesos.
Drats - I fixed it earlier in 1 spot, missed the 2nd, thanks.
In the year+ since this came about - I read some posts from folks who desired to get an Omega, normal 1907 $20, as well as a $50 Peso gold coin of the era scanned or analyzed for some actual scientific reference points.
Has anybody gone about this yet?
That would be an interesting analysis to see. I would expect to see a bit of silver in a genuine piece.
FWIW, I have handled several Omega $20's professionally over the years, and never noticed any sign of an understriking on one.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe Bonanno had something to do with it. I have serious doubts about other matters. If you are unwilling (as before) to answer questions that challenge you, I'll stop asking. Let me know if you remember something new.
this is awesome! You got the mob, counterfeiting, shady caricatures, crazy engraver guy, junk yard, mint workers, Tucson you have everything to make a great movie 🍿
"My brothers and I were used to drive these guys around, including to the shop. I have pictures of it from this weekend. I turned 16 in 1971, my oldest brother turned 16 in 67, 2nd oldest in 69. Put a big question mark next to the years in your timeline as they are only guestimates."
After 50 years, I don't blame you if you're off a year or two. I'm just trying to document it as best I can.
But.. since I've been working on the timeline today, and going back through old notes and posts, I just added this to the timeline I posted earlier up above:
July 22, 1968 - Bonanno's house bombed
September 12, 1968 - Joseph Sebastian's Auto Body shop at 1920 N. Stone Avenue bombed (out-building was coin production facility)
Important because TTTT stated: "when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production" and "Keep in mind that the bombings happened right around the same time of the coins being made."
Add that to: March 29, 1969 - Newton S. Pfeffer died - who sold gold coins in his store.
Given those dates above, we've always started the modern timeline from your first visit here where you thought it was 1968 when the dies were first presented to Bonanno. You thought the Master Engraver came from Italy in 1970 and the 20,000 (Omega) production was also around 1970-71
If coins were being made at the time of the bombings (1968) - do you remember if this was the ~40 restrikes, or the ~20,000 "Omega" marked ones? This would change the dates quite a bit in the timeline to get it more accurate. Is it possible the dies were presented to Bonanno prior to 1968 shifting all of this back a year or two?
I missed this post of yours at the tail end of the deleted one, but read it in the summary .pdf where you thought it was even earlier than that. Referencing your brother and yourself:
"We both believe the entire episode began in 64/65 and ended in 67/68. Brand new coins were coming on to the market in 1973/74. We base this on how old we thought we were and that when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production. We both believe many thousands of coins were still in existence after the shutdown."
Does any of that kind of rearrange the dates you initially thought of:
*Dies Presented
*~40 restrikes made
*Lengthy process for Frenchie to get the new dies done
*~20,000 Omega's are produced
*Operation shut-down ahead of Feds visit to junkyard after visiting the warehouse in Mexico
Strike out, I believe your synopsis is good. I was 11 years old in 1966. I can not give you the dates with certainty. I was hoping that figuring out when I started to drive would help, but when I couldn't drive, I went along with my brothers. My brother and I saw the coins in Newton Pfeiffer's store. We think we were there around Xmas, 68.,We both believe it was months sooner than the time of his death. Neither of us can give you better info, but the telling of the death of Pfeiffer reminded us of our visit. As you talk about things from 50 years ago, things come back. Best I can do at this time.
.
Members of this forum, something major occurred today on this forum that is huge in my opinion. Earlier today I posted something on one of the three threads regarding the Omega. I did not read all of the previous posts. The film historians were here and as I posted, they are reading the threads and loving it. While I was in the bathroom one of the historians began to yell "Doc, you have to see this" . Since I couldn't come to him, he came to the bathroom door and read me three posts. I can only guess at the majority of the details as it came fast. First and foremost, I am not forum savy and don't even know how to paste and copy. I also apologize to any member if I get my facts wrong. I BELIEVE the historian said Roger B just posted that an engraver way, way back checked the die in question out of the mint to take home. In addition, a copy of the Mint die chain of custody was included. It was handwritten, cursive I believe and it documented who the engraver was and when and it mentioned for home. Roger B again I apologize if it was not you. Another prominent poster followed it with a joke about disappeared in 1907 only to show up in 1970's . A third member posted to disregard the die, it is a distraction. I personally saw the copy of the US mint chain of custody, the name and the word home when we lost the page. I believe my post was next. We immediately tried to relocate those posts and two can,t be found. The one by Roger B and the joke. This information is huge as it not only destroys any position that the die never left the mint or were accounted for or secure at all time. There was also no mention anywhere of their return. I am going to assume that I don't know how to use this forum and can't find the posts, but I am asking those involved to help us find it. This is not only corroboration of my story, it is potential evidence of a huge crime that has been uncovered by the diligent investigation of members of this forum to prove or disprove my story. This discovery is newsworthy. Go way back and I posted that the son of an engraver was told to seek out Bonanno to sell these die. I ask all respected members to help find those posts which I believe were removed and not lost. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.
Fair enough - I adjusted the timeline working back from the known details (Primarily the bombing and jeweler's death), which shifts things back a year or likely more in most places, putting 1967 and early-mid 1968 as the bulk of the happenings. Should be in the ballpark - if you or your family ever remembers anything else, I can always update the timeline.
@RogerB - was that you who posted the page from the mint records of the 1907 dies? I remember seeing an image earlier too, but never got a chance to read/process it.
C'mom RogerB We only have 12 years and the earth is gunna go poof. Please don't pull a Breen and deny it, too many people saw it. It is a great discovery. The 1907 high relief die walked right out the front door of the US Mint to go to daddy's home. No record of being returned and documented in writing on the chain of custody documentation. I mean I realize you are not one of my biggest supporters and this discovery hurt your position against me (a lot), but what the heck, we all have stepped in dog poo at least once. So much for all the experts who said a die set would never , ever leave the mint. Gee Roger, do you think he kept them...that would be theft wouldn't it. We know the fakes were made and are high quality. Now we know the die walked out the door. Do you think the two are related. Funny how the son of an engraver was directed by his father to sell the die to Bonanno. I wrote that because I remembered it being said. They were not on craigslist you know. He only called a mobster. I can understand why the post was pulled after the joke about walking out the door in 1907 and showing up in 1970 might caused you to be upset, but just blame it on youthful exuberance
Please explain and produce authentication for your comments.
"too many people saw it." Who?
"The 1907 high relief die walked right out the front door of the US Mint." Who removed it? When?
(ditto) Describe the location of dies (complete and in process), and security at the Philadelphia Mint at the time they "walked right out the front door."
"to go to daddy's home." Where was this and into whose possession?
"No record of being returned and documented in writing on the chain of custody documentation." Post this document and it's source.
"Funny how the son of an engraver was directed by his father to sell the die to Bonanno." What engraver and what was the son's name?
"So much for all the experts who said a die set would never , ever leave the mint." What "experts" and when was this supposed to have happened?
Unfortunately in our society we have people that must win at all cost including denial of the truth. There is nothing more vile than a prosecutor who during the course of prosecuting someone obtains evidence that the defendant is innocent and conceals it. In my book the prosecutor should be executed. All eyes are on you now Roger. Your diligent research produced a great document, unfortunately it does go against you. Now you are concealing it and couldn't even state "I don't know what you are talking about". Have some honor, you are an expert, no question it just went the wrong way this time. Everybody is waiting for you to put your discovery back up.
Hey everybody, Roger b did it. Due to diligent, impressive reseach, he obtained the Phili mint chain of custody documentation regarding the die that made the Omega. They walked right out the front door and went home with the ingraver. Great job Roger. Take a bow, you did it. Put it back up Roger, everyone knows
I posted the image of a die "loaned" in 1907 mint records. I originally thought it would be funny to "feed the flames", but thought better of it in the morning and deleted it. If you want it, go find it. This whole thing goes off into la-la land when a "master engraver" is running off to the landfill with a lantern to rummage around. You're talking about Charles Barber or George Morgan here, or someone of that caliber. It's nuts. Stick to what you actually know.
You are insinuating first-hand knowledge of two people getting murdered. This belongs with law enforcement, not on a coin forum. I'm no longer amused.
Then I owe Roger B an apology for crediting him with the discovery you made. My apologies and my congrats to you for the discovery. Thank you for confirming the document exists an the die walked out the door. I also owe Roger B an apology for accusing him of posting and then hiding the discovery. Hope he accepts it as I am sincere . Not sure what flames you were fanning with such a discovery, It speaks for itself. I would say take a bow.
kbbppl….Here what I know. You posted that you posted a copy of a mint document that the die were loaned out to the engraver to take home. Now it's just a joke for Gods sake. Pardon my ignorance but I don't get the joke. The document you posted is no joke. The information it provides is actually quite serious. A whole bunch of people got ripped off, and no one believes the die could leave the mint, but they did and you found it. Why would you not want to share that document with this forum?
kbbppl you are not amused, but nor am I . You played the joke, not I. The document you presented is not a joke. You have a serious piece of evidence and it shines a lot of light on the Omega mystery. I appreciate you coming forward and correcting me for going after RogerB. Hope you enjoyed the show knowing I was wrong, but I have no problem for admitting when I am wrong and apologizing. What about you though. Now everybody is looking at you. You have found a critical document, used it "fan the flames" but it was only a joke. Something is very wrong here. Put the document back up, you're the one in everyone's sights now, not me'
kbbppl….I am not going away. You thought it would be funny to post an official Phili Mint document that the die for the Omega coin was loaned out to the engraver and he took them home. I was wrong with RogerB, I can put my tail between my legs and apologize. You talk about caliber of men. I don't think many thought your joke was very funny, nor did you so you took it down. Where is your apology to me? Why deny these hard working members proof that the die walked out the front door with the mints permission. Your joke was not funny at all.
For those of you that don't know, according to his own post, kbbppl found a document of very significant importance in the Omega coin mystery. The document is no joke. I have no doubt that it is real. The document lists the name of an engraver that checked the die in question out of the mint to take home. kbbppl even commented as to who knows what he did with them. Apparently his decision to post this document was not to educate or inform, but to play a joke. He then decided it was not funny after someone else posted a joke about losing the die in 1907 and being found in the 70's. The post with the document and the joke disappeared. It was read to me by another and I only saw it briefly before it disappeared. My colleague thought it was posted by RogerB and I initially had patience , but youthful exuberance took over and I attributed the discovery of the document to RogerB and accussed him of concealing it because it does not support his position that contrary to my story.
I know the importance of that document and I wanted it reposted so I continued to go after Rogerb. Kbbppl came forward and his post speaks for itself. He states'if you want it go find it. He talks of caliber of men, but clearly his joke prompted a lot of what happens.
KBBPPL, my story of how the Omegas came into existence will never change. I lived it and I don't need the document. I don't collect coins and only came back for one reason. My agenda is complete. I was asked to come back by the production company . They enjoyed the discussion about the forum and how I was going be challenged and proven to be a fraud. They wanted to know what you guys found after what 16-17 months time to rip me apart. they read for themselves that there is nothing to discredit me. As I stated, I am still here as I am enjoying it. Have learned alittle and now your discovery. I just tell the historians and they will have to dig it up if they want it. My question is why would you deny all these members the opportunity to see actual evidence that answers big questions. You are not hurting me but them. I find it interesting that you probably come here for enjoyment and like to learn new things about history. You take, but won't share. What does that say about your caliber. Not good my friend
It is one thing for the US Mint to discard dies that have been cancelled with a big "X" (like the ones buried next to the Carson City Mint). There are several known instances of this.
But it is an entirely different thing for the US Mint to let useable un-cancelled coinage dies escape. The only known instances of that are from the early 1800s. There have been no documented instances since then.
...I am also down to help a little with the film...I have some fun things from that time-period (non-numismatic) that could definitely be used as “props” in a mob-movie...I know nothing about nothing as far as the plot goes though
I was asked to comment on how could someone know ahead of time that a die was going to collapse if there was no visible evidence of that starting to occur.
I have had dies "collapse" on me. The cause was always improper heat-treating (insufficient hardening). Most people think that the purpose of heat-treating dies was to harden the surface of the die so that it won't wear during repeated strikings. But that is not really the main reason for heat-treating. Then main reason is that the core (shank) of the die has to be stiff enough so that it won't get crushed under the high tonnage of striking. A die might be hard on the surface but if the core is not as hard it can collapse. There are a couple things that can cause surface hardening without sufficient core hardening:
1) Insufficient time at the hardening temperature. When hot, the steel hardening process tends to start at the surface first and then slowly progress towards the core.
2) Cooling time too slow. For the hardening to be successful, after the proper duration at high temperature, the die steel needs to be cooled fairly quickly. If the cool-down time is too long, the hardening will not take. I have to take the crucibles containing my dies out of the kiln while they are still at 1,900 degrees F. I set them on a brick on the concrete floor and point a fan at them. If I just turned off the kiln and left the dies in there they wouldn't harden properly.
When I have had heat-treating failures, upon attempting to strike with such dies, what starts to happen immediately is the die diameter begins to increase. With every strike, the die diameter gets a little larger and the length of the die gets a little shorter. Eventually, the die gets too large in diameter to fit in the collar. Once this happens, the only thing that can be done is to grind some metal off the perimeter of the die so that it will fit in the collar again. Coins struck after that will have the appearance of having narrower rims. But usually within the first 10 strikes or so, a improperly-hardened die will have distorted to the point that the rims are gone from repeated grinding and the die is still getting stuck in the collar. At that point, the die is scrap.
If a hardness test is done on a die, that can only reveal the hardness at the surface (not at the core).
If the entire die (including the surface) was insufficiently hardened, a hardness test would reveal that.
If no hardness testing was done, there would be no way for a person to know ahead of time that the die was going to collapse, unless that person happened to know the production history of that die and that it was never heat-treated.
Upon attempting to use the die, it would quickly become apparent if the hardening was insufficient.
If 50 high-relief Saint-Gaudens coins were struck from the original dies while one or both dies were collapsing, there would be a visible progression (from one strike to the next) of the design details expanding in diameter while the rims would likely be getting thinner.
@dcarr said:
I was asked to comment on how could someone know ahead of time that a die was going to collapse if there was no visible evidence of that starting to occur.
t-treated.
Upon attempting to use the die, it would quickly become apparent if the hardening was insufficient.
If 50 high-relief Saint-Gaudens coins were struck from the original dies while one or both dies were collapsing, there would be a visible progression (from one strike to the next) of the design details expanding in diameter while the rims would likely be getting thinner.
You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.
Comments
Did you get out of your wheelchair?
Sellit..thank you...the thread indicated that he moved to Chicago and worked for the Chicago mob. In LA he would have been in the Jewish mob with Bugsy Siegal. The reason I asked was there is acceptance but friction and hard feelings between the organizations. It is not all kumbaya. Bonanno was New York Commission Mafia. Most people think of New York mob as the big boys on the block, but the Chicago mob was huge. The New York mob was dwarfed by the Chicago outfit in money and power. Peter Licavoli was the leader of the Detroit purple gang and they were affiliated with the Chicago mob and he also retired to Tucson. Licavoli's outfit was smaller than the Bonanno family but he had the Chicago mob credentials on his lapel. Bonanno was famous, after all, he was the Godfather. Interesting alpha male testosterone contention.
Lots of sneers, friction, but politeness to each others face and spitting on the ground when out of site. What does this have to do with the Omega coin Heather says. Well, as Bonanno's relationship with Battaglia began to sour badly, Batts knew he would someday be out and it would be suicide for a Bonanno soldier to follow Batts out the door. Batts needed new gumba's and he knew where to get them. It was a feather in Licavoli's cap that Batts was now running with Licavoli associates and it really p.o. ed JB. Batts at one time was his right hand man, his most loyal and his assassin. Now Batts is already diverting crimes to his brother John in LA. John is most likely LA Jewish mob or Chicago. Hope that helps Fred Weinberg.
1990 and I am practicing medicine in Tucson when a high ranking old time Licavoli soldier appears at my office. He is about 10 years older than me and we had always been very friendly to each other over the years despite the complicated relationship of JB an Licavoli. We are both thrilled and happy to see each other. Then he drops the bomb on me. In his car is a man very down on his luck who is sick with pneumonia. No money, no food, nowhere to stay and I am asked if I will help him out medically. I also know this man and we have always been friendly but he is a killer. He also was a high ranking associate of the Licavoli family. He had to be carried into the office and he had no idea who I was. I can not violate patient confidentiality so no names, but I agreed to treat him as an outpatient and he would live in the first mans house to get better. In 24 hours he was awake, alert and out of danger albeit, very weak. Most pneumonia is treated outpatient today unlike the old days. He was thrilled that I was there taking care of him and they always called me by my Irish name Patti. I made a house call daily for a week or so and we always sat around and talked of the old days. I enjoyed it very much. I had always been told who my dad and JB thought was involved in the murder of Newton Pfieffer so I brought up the subject. Without hesitation and while laughing about the incident, I was told Batts Battaglia.his brother (john), Jerry Paisley and one I won't name threw him out the window. You can read all about the crazy gang Batts and Jerry put together to murder Bonanno and his wife with a crossbow at the El Corral restaurant in Tucson. My brother and I are sure Pfeiffer was selling Omegas in 1968 now that we know when he was killed.
My, my, my... you seem to have a lot of down time.
Welcome Back Dr. D,
I found my notes I was keeping last year. I got to the timeline/notes part - the March 29, 1969 death of Pfeffer - said JB's gold coins were sold there prior/up to his death. Was this the ~40 original unmarked coins from the original dies, or part of the big batch of marked Omega coins from the new dies made?
Here is what i had last time, with Pfeffer's line inserted. I know you were recollecting the best you could last time for the actual years, and were basing some things on you starting to drive, and other events in your life - just curious now a year or so later how what I typed up from your comments still fit or need adjusted.
TIMELINE:
1907? - Mint employee disguises nearly used up production dies as being cancelled, which get disposed in the Philadelphia Town Dump under normal procedures (Except the dies weren't properly confirmed cancelled before leaving mint), where they're dug up, and held for many years by the mint worker.
Early 1967? - Relative (son?) of the prominent mint worker comes to Bonanno with the dies "I was present when a man produced to my father two chunks of metal each about the size of the head of a small sledge hammer. He called them transfer or production die." "THE METALLURGIST SAID THE DIE HAD A HIGH CARBON CONTENT" Man was in his late 30's or early 40's (so born approx ~1930) from the east coast. (Was told in person from the relative/mint worker about the dies) so mint worker/relative lived at least until at least ~1945 (Assuming a secret like this would be told to at least a teenager). Another clue: "It is 1907, and you a master engraver, maybe not the top but still a master engraver and you want these die as part of your collection at home". The Relative during his visit to Tucson to sell the dies was put up in a high end hotel for an extended stay during his vetting.
"At the time of the purchase of the die, an expert was brought in to authenticate them as genuine and remark on their condition. His opinion was they were real, used and could still produce coins. How many? Unknown. At that time, they were not collapsed or damaged in any way. Based on this mans assessment, Bonanno purchased the die. Never saw that man again. "
"I would like to address the dies I personally saw in my fathers office. They were in a briefcase and covered in cosmoline (gun grease), except the hub with the engraving. The hub had a mixture of Vaseline and wax."
"Everyone new the dies had a very limited life so sophisticated moldings were done as well as other technical procedures I was not made aware."
"Remember, before the die were used, various substances and resins were used to make impressions."
Mid 1967? - 16 ton press owned by the Argentine government disappeared from a storage warehouse. shipped from Buenos Aires via truck and train all the way to Papadious Junk Yard on Stone ave. in Tucson, Az.
Late 1967? The original mint dies were polished by a metallurgist initially due to fine rust. Everyone knew the dies had a very limited life so sophisticated moldings were done as well as other technical procedures I was not made aware.
Late '67-Early '68? (Before March 1969) Approximately 40 1907s were produced with the original dies with no Omega mark(Tuscon Restrikes) using Mexico $50 Peso coins. "The coins were authenticated and sold. There were no critics. The experts deemed them authentic."
1968?. Bonanno has put together the equipment and the manpower. He has a pressman from a mint and mill man and a few others, but no master engraver. The expertise of the people he has is questionable when it comes to determining the quality of the first batch of around 40. He needs to sell these to recoup his money. This has been nearly a year in the making.
1968? Phase 2 - "downtime for preparations for the big blast" - The Syndicate was brought in and the operation was overseen by them.
1968? Master carver who worked for the Italian Mint arrived "The master coin engraver came well after the first phase". "you have one of the most talented master engravers in the world whose work is incredible". He was kept completely isolated from the production facility (apparently in Mr. B's house)
1968? Approximately 20,000 Mexico $50 Peso coins procured
1968? til end - Production of approximately 19,900 Omega coins were sold to the public - Most through investment brokers or houses but also jewelry stores. TTTT also said "this was a hugh operation and one phone call shut it down. A trove of coins had never left the building" - Exact distribution # unknown
July 22, 1968 - Bonanno's house bombed
September 12, 1968 - Joseph Sebastian's Auto Body shop at 1920 N. Stone Avenue bombed (out-building on site was coin production facility)
Important because "when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production" and "Keep in mind that the bombings happened right around the same time of the coins being made.
March 29, 1969 - Newton S. Pfeffer died (Suicide/mob hit?) fall from the pioneer Hotel in Tucson. Pfeffer has sold the Omega's in his store - was this the ~40 original unmarked, or part of the larger marked group? - Likely the original 40, timeline puts the 19,900 after this.
1970? - All the equipment was destroyed and saw by TTTT - (Watched from roof, moved from Body Shop to junkyard, torched/cut up and crushed at junkyard).
1971 - August 10-14 - Omega 1907s appear at ANA Convention
? - The $3 Omega was not a Bonnano venture, but might be a Syndicate
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Post for a reference point for @StrikeOutXXX ‘s summarized post.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12291915/#Comment_12291915
Wow, that's a lot. Mostly right on. Couple of points. At the time of the purchase of the die, an expert was brought in to authenticate them as genuine and remark on their condition. His opinion was they were real, used and could still produce coins. How many? Unknown. At that time, they were not collapsed or damaged in any way. Based on this mans assessment, Bonanno purchased the die. Never saw that man again. The first new man to arrive was a retired mint worker who was a coin press operator and some sort of machine shop director or foreman. He also evaluated the die based on his experience of working with them. They were worn, but not worn out. They were also quite old and based on usage and age, he predicted they would fail. I believe that he predicted they would collapse. If he used other descriptors like crack or crumble etc...I don't know. I remember they were handled like precious glass. If damaged from a drop or bump would be a disaster. I can't tell you if the replica die were done or not, but a decision was made to use the original die when the press and men were ready to go. I believe they felt if there was an accident or mistake, it would be better to damage the original die than the new replica's. The engraver was a very difficult, complaining, lazy man. We called him the prima donna. I don't think Bonanno could have gone thru another round of waiting for this man to make a new set of die. The operation was far more expensive and time consuming than expected and JB wanted to recoup some money. The original die were used and did produce very acceptable coins initially. Then something happened. A failure of some sort occurred and the quality of the coins changed rapidly and then they were bad. I wasn't there and was only told this by my dad or JB. I did ask my brother what he remembered and he said one of the die collapsed. I have talked to a metallurgist as I had to testify in court about the injuries a mechanic suffered from a jackstand made in china that allegedly exploded and failed according to all witnesses. I specifically asked if metal could collapse and his answer was yes and that was his findings in this jackstand. According to him, with age and continued usage, some metal will fatigue in a manner where the space in the atoms of the metal is compressed and distorted. It is progressive and will eventually lead to rapid failure. In this case the jackstand exploded.
My brothers and I were used to drive these guys around, including to the shop. I have pictures of it from this weekend. I turned 16 in 1971, my oldest brother turned 16 in 67, 2nd oldest in 69. Put a big question mark next to the years in your timeline as they are only guestimates.
We all drove them or rode along.
No idea if the coins in Pfeiffers store were from original batch or later. I never saw or was ever told of anything related to sales or distribution. Only knew there was a very big distribution organization. Eagle Eyes and I both agreed, the infrastructure of people needed to distribute these coins thru out the U.S. and the years it went on for (and to have kept their mouths shut) must have been enormous and it would be very unlikely for this to have been done by a small group or lone wolf. The syndicate on the other hand was a very good candidate to have achieved this. That's enough.
The dates MUST be wrong for numerous reasons.
OK, edited my above post a bit for clarity and add in additional items TTTT mentioned.
Silly question - I have the PDF made of the poofed original thread, but that was just TTTTs comments - did anyone save the thread with the other comments (mine particularly I'm looking for)?
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I did and it is linked in the other thread where many holes in the story are also discussed
During my time as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer you go thru extensive training which includes a lot of Federal Prosecutors who come in and lecture on their field of practice or expertise. This gave me the opportunity to ask some odd questions without revealing the nature as to why I was asking. The Supreme Court has ruled that items that are discarded and are commonly known as trash, rubbish etc are no longer the property of the owner once they leave the original owners property. Your trash out on the street is no longer yours and is free picking to the public.Trash is now part of the public domain and can be taken by anyone without fear of criminal prosecution. Possession is the law. Finders keepers really does apply as long as it was found in public domain. That includes items disposed of in a private or public dump. A private dump has slightly more rights. Possession of the original die was not a crime, nor where they stolen. They were discarded per procedure by the Federal government and were free to be taken by anyone who could have located them. Failure of the federal institution employee to damage them with a strike to make them unusable was also not a crime. Possible negligence, but intent is part of the law. If the person responsible for rendering them useless failed his duties unintentionally...too bad..no crime. Don't believe me, get a shovel and go up to the Carson City park, look for a 3 foot high rock wall and start digging. Whatever die you find, struck or unstruck is yours and you cannot be prosecuted for taking it or possessing it. The only possible crime is the deliberate actions of an individual who may have prevented the strike, or told an officer they had been struck etc. Once again without a confession of intent, no prosecutor would have touched the case. The worst case outcome was FIRE HIM.
The dies are a distraction. They didn't need them at all to make these coins. They were striking counterfeits with them so that is crime enough, if you want a crime. [Or, if you prefer, since the omega makes them not counterfeits they were just committing fraud with the dies.] But none of that has much bearing on the rest of the story. Ultimately, they made their own hub with an artist. They could have easily started with a real coin to do that work. In fact, since a real coin only would have cost a couple thousand bucks and would have been in better condition, they probably should have done that anyway.
There are enough crimes here anyway: fraud (or counterfeiting or counterfeiting AND fraud), smuggling, pedophelia, murder, loan sharking, bribery. Who cares if the dies were legal or illegal or even in existence at all?
Are there any other new details you have recalled that you can add to the story? For example, were any of the other Omega coins struck on the same press to your knowledge?
But from a numismatic perspective, it's super interesting to imagine US Mint dies out there for these.
Except that part of the story has the least meat to it as that crime was committed 50 years before TTTT was born so we're not going to learn anything more about that. And all this "is it a crime or not?" is just empty discussion. There are sooo many crimes here, who cares if they stole the dies right out from under the sleeping Mint Superintendent's nose? By the time you've got murder, narcotics, smuggling etc...
Perhaps it doesn't need to be in the movie as lots of things are often cut from movies to get a short plot together, but overall, I still think it's one of the most interesting things from a numismatics perspective.
Disregard
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I'm a little confused about the jeweler.
The jeweler was helping JB. But the jeweler was killed by Batts Battaglia because of debts. Wasn't JB mad about this? Especially since Batts was working with Licavuli who was running Arizona and a direct competitor of JB?
Help please. There are 3 different threads going on at the same time about the Omegas. I was told that there is a post that is documented about an engraver taking a die set home. Is this true? Experts has claimed no die ever left the mint. When did the die leave the mint and wouldn't it be documented when they returned. Please clarify this post
Enough is enough! There is an individual on this site that I believe is deliberately trying to sabotage this conversation. If you don't believe, then don't. That's Ok with me. Many people are enjoying the story of the Omega and it makes them happy. It is good for the site. The historians were in Tucson this weekend and they were reading this forum and loved it. Please stop with your tactics. We know what you are doing and you can't play dumb. You engaged in these very same tactics last time to cause dissention and outright hostility. You have not changed. You earned your nickname last time. Stop with the made up facts, the misquotes, telling whole episodes of the story your way and not the way I told it. I know that you are intelligent, but these are tactics of the intellectually dishonest. I told this site I had an agenda for coming back and it is complete. I am still here as I enjoy talking about something so huge in my childhood. I had goosebumps and palpitations photographing JB's old house, the south face of the Pioneer Hotel, but I almost cried when we arrived at the shop where these coins were born. If you can't be honest, go away.
The whole thing rings true to me.
Among this story, the Hansen stuff, the legnd stuf, and the other true coin dramas large and small around here over the years,
I feel very privileged to be a witness to the big reveals and to be a participant in a couple littler slices of numismatic history.
Awesome content in these forums, if one is willing to endure the bs and sort through the chaff.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
In the above under 1969 you have Mexican $5 Pesos. Should be 50 Pesos.
Drats - I fixed it earlier in 1 spot, missed the 2nd, thanks.
In the year+ since this came about - I read some posts from folks who desired to get an Omega, normal 1907 $20, as well as a $50 Peso gold coin of the era scanned or analyzed for some actual scientific reference points.
Has anybody gone about this yet?
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
That would be an interesting analysis to see. I would expect to see a bit of silver in a genuine piece.
FWIW, I have handled several Omega $20's professionally over the years, and never noticed any sign of an understriking on one.
I believe Bonanno had something to do with it. I have serious doubts about other matters. If you are unwilling (as before) to answer questions that challenge you, I'll stop asking. Let me know if you remember something new.
this is awesome! You got the mob, counterfeiting, shady caricatures, crazy engraver guy, junk yard, mint workers, Tucson you have everything to make a great movie 🍿
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
jmla….there is only one thing that I truly agree with you. You posted you are confused and I concur
"My brothers and I were used to drive these guys around, including to the shop. I have pictures of it from this weekend. I turned 16 in 1971, my oldest brother turned 16 in 67, 2nd oldest in 69. Put a big question mark next to the years in your timeline as they are only guestimates."
After 50 years, I don't blame you if you're off a year or two. I'm just trying to document it as best I can.
But.. since I've been working on the timeline today, and going back through old notes and posts, I just added this to the timeline I posted earlier up above:
July 22, 1968 - Bonanno's house bombed
September 12, 1968 - Joseph Sebastian's Auto Body shop at 1920 N. Stone Avenue bombed (out-building was coin production facility)
Important because TTTT stated: "when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production" and "Keep in mind that the bombings happened right around the same time of the coins being made."
Add that to: March 29, 1969 - Newton S. Pfeffer died - who sold gold coins in his store.
Given those dates above, we've always started the modern timeline from your first visit here where you thought it was 1968 when the dies were first presented to Bonanno. You thought the Master Engraver came from Italy in 1970 and the 20,000 (Omega) production was also around 1970-71
If coins were being made at the time of the bombings (1968) - do you remember if this was the ~40 restrikes, or the ~20,000 "Omega" marked ones? This would change the dates quite a bit in the timeline to get it more accurate. Is it possible the dies were presented to Bonanno prior to 1968 shifting all of this back a year or two?
I missed this post of yours at the tail end of the deleted one, but read it in the summary .pdf where you thought it was even earlier than that. Referencing your brother and yourself:
"We both believe the entire episode began in 64/65 and ended in 67/68. Brand new coins were coming on to the market in 1973/74. We base this on how old we thought we were and that when Bonannos house was bombed, he was in the thick of production. We both believe many thousands of coins were still in existence after the shutdown."
Does any of that kind of rearrange the dates you initially thought of:
*Dies Presented
*~40 restrikes made
*Lengthy process for Frenchie to get the new dies done
*~20,000 Omega's are produced
*Operation shut-down ahead of Feds visit to junkyard after visiting the warehouse in Mexico
Thanks as always!
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Strike out, I believe your synopsis is good. I was 11 years old in 1966. I can not give you the dates with certainty. I was hoping that figuring out when I started to drive would help, but when I couldn't drive, I went along with my brothers. My brother and I saw the coins in Newton Pfeiffer's store. We think we were there around Xmas, 68.,We both believe it was months sooner than the time of his death. Neither of us can give you better info, but the telling of the death of Pfeiffer reminded us of our visit. As you talk about things from 50 years ago, things come back. Best I can do at this time.
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Members of this forum, something major occurred today on this forum that is huge in my opinion. Earlier today I posted something on one of the three threads regarding the Omega. I did not read all of the previous posts. The film historians were here and as I posted, they are reading the threads and loving it. While I was in the bathroom one of the historians began to yell "Doc, you have to see this" . Since I couldn't come to him, he came to the bathroom door and read me three posts. I can only guess at the majority of the details as it came fast. First and foremost, I am not forum savy and don't even know how to paste and copy. I also apologize to any member if I get my facts wrong. I BELIEVE the historian said Roger B just posted that an engraver way, way back checked the die in question out of the mint to take home. In addition, a copy of the Mint die chain of custody was included. It was handwritten, cursive I believe and it documented who the engraver was and when and it mentioned for home. Roger B again I apologize if it was not you. Another prominent poster followed it with a joke about disappeared in 1907 only to show up in 1970's . A third member posted to disregard the die, it is a distraction. I personally saw the copy of the US mint chain of custody, the name and the word home when we lost the page. I believe my post was next. We immediately tried to relocate those posts and two can,t be found. The one by Roger B and the joke. This information is huge as it not only destroys any position that the die never left the mint or were accounted for or secure at all time. There was also no mention anywhere of their return. I am going to assume that I don't know how to use this forum and can't find the posts, but I am asking those involved to help us find it. This is not only corroboration of my story, it is potential evidence of a huge crime that has been uncovered by the diligent investigation of members of this forum to prove or disprove my story. This discovery is newsworthy. Go way back and I posted that the son of an engraver was told to seek out Bonanno to sell these die. I ask all respected members to help find those posts which I believe were removed and not lost. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.
Fair enough - I adjusted the timeline working back from the known details (Primarily the bombing and jeweler's death), which shifts things back a year or likely more in most places, putting 1967 and early-mid 1968 as the bulk of the happenings. Should be in the ballpark - if you or your family ever remembers anything else, I can always update the timeline.
@RogerB - was that you who posted the page from the mint records of the 1907 dies? I remember seeing an image earlier too, but never got a chance to read/process it.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Thank you for also requesting the die info from rogerb
C'mom RogerB We only have 12 years and the earth is gunna go poof. Please don't pull a Breen and deny it, too many people saw it. It is a great discovery. The 1907 high relief die walked right out the front door of the US Mint to go to daddy's home. No record of being returned and documented in writing on the chain of custody documentation. I mean I realize you are not one of my biggest supporters and this discovery hurt your position against me (a lot), but what the heck, we all have stepped in dog poo at least once. So much for all the experts who said a die set would never , ever leave the mint. Gee Roger, do you think he kept them...that would be theft wouldn't it. We know the fakes were made and are high quality. Now we know the die walked out the door. Do you think the two are related. Funny how the son of an engraver was directed by his father to sell the die to Bonanno. I wrote that because I remembered it being said. They were not on craigslist you know. He only called a mobster. I can understand why the post was pulled after the joke about walking out the door in 1907 and showing up in 1970 might caused you to be upset, but just blame it on youthful exuberance
Please explain and produce authentication for your comments.
Thanks.
Cmon Rogerb, don't make us laugh. Be a man and put your post back up
Unfortunately in our society we have people that must win at all cost including denial of the truth. There is nothing more vile than a prosecutor who during the course of prosecuting someone obtains evidence that the defendant is innocent and conceals it. In my book the prosecutor should be executed. All eyes are on you now Roger. Your diligent research produced a great document, unfortunately it does go against you. Now you are concealing it and couldn't even state "I don't know what you are talking about". Have some honor, you are an expert, no question it just went the wrong way this time. Everybody is waiting for you to put your discovery back up.
Can TTTT answer the questions?
Congrats on your hugh discovery Roger. Everyone now knows. Put it back up
Hey everybody, Roger b did it. Due to diligent, impressive reseach, he obtained the Phili mint chain of custody documentation regarding the die that made the Omega. They walked right out the front door and went home with the ingraver. Great job Roger. Take a bow, you did it. Put it back up Roger, everyone knows
I posted the image of a die "loaned" in 1907 mint records. I originally thought it would be funny to "feed the flames", but thought better of it in the morning and deleted it. If you want it, go find it. This whole thing goes off into la-la land when a "master engraver" is running off to the landfill with a lantern to rummage around. You're talking about Charles Barber or George Morgan here, or someone of that caliber. It's nuts. Stick to what you actually know.
You are insinuating first-hand knowledge of two people getting murdered. This belongs with law enforcement, not on a coin forum. I'm no longer amused.
Then I owe Roger B an apology for crediting him with the discovery you made. My apologies and my congrats to you for the discovery. Thank you for confirming the document exists an the die walked out the door. I also owe Roger B an apology for accusing him of posting and then hiding the discovery. Hope he accepts it as I am sincere . Not sure what flames you were fanning with such a discovery, It speaks for itself. I would say take a bow.
For god's sake, it was a joke. Stick to what you actually know.
If it's just a joke, than why not share the laughter with everyone nd put it back up? for Gods sake
kbbppl….Here what I know. You posted that you posted a copy of a mint document that the die were loaned out to the engraver to take home. Now it's just a joke for Gods sake. Pardon my ignorance but I don't get the joke. The document you posted is no joke. The information it provides is actually quite serious. A whole bunch of people got ripped off, and no one believes the die could leave the mint, but they did and you found it. Why would you not want to share that document with this forum?
kbbppl you are not amused, but nor am I . You played the joke, not I. The document you presented is not a joke. You have a serious piece of evidence and it shines a lot of light on the Omega mystery. I appreciate you coming forward and correcting me for going after RogerB. Hope you enjoyed the show knowing I was wrong, but I have no problem for admitting when I am wrong and apologizing. What about you though. Now everybody is looking at you. You have found a critical document, used it "fan the flames" but it was only a joke. Something is very wrong here. Put the document back up, you're the one in everyone's sights now, not me'
kbbppl….I am not going away. You thought it would be funny to post an official Phili Mint document that the die for the Omega coin was loaned out to the engraver and he took them home. I was wrong with RogerB, I can put my tail between my legs and apologize. You talk about caliber of men. I don't think many thought your joke was very funny, nor did you so you took it down. Where is your apology to me? Why deny these hard working members proof that the die walked out the front door with the mints permission. Your joke was not funny at all.
For those of you that don't know, according to his own post, kbbppl found a document of very significant importance in the Omega coin mystery. The document is no joke. I have no doubt that it is real. The document lists the name of an engraver that checked the die in question out of the mint to take home. kbbppl even commented as to who knows what he did with them. Apparently his decision to post this document was not to educate or inform, but to play a joke. He then decided it was not funny after someone else posted a joke about losing the die in 1907 and being found in the 70's. The post with the document and the joke disappeared. It was read to me by another and I only saw it briefly before it disappeared. My colleague thought it was posted by RogerB and I initially had patience , but youthful exuberance took over and I attributed the discovery of the document to RogerB and accussed him of concealing it because it does not support his position that contrary to my story.
I know the importance of that document and I wanted it reposted so I continued to go after Rogerb. Kbbppl came forward and his post speaks for itself. He states'if you want it go find it. He talks of caliber of men, but clearly his joke prompted a lot of what happens.
KBBPPL, my story of how the Omegas came into existence will never change. I lived it and I don't need the document. I don't collect coins and only came back for one reason. My agenda is complete. I was asked to come back by the production company . They enjoyed the discussion about the forum and how I was going be challenged and proven to be a fraud. They wanted to know what you guys found after what 16-17 months time to rip me apart. they read for themselves that there is nothing to discredit me. As I stated, I am still here as I am enjoying it. Have learned alittle and now your discovery. I just tell the historians and they will have to dig it up if they want it. My question is why would you deny all these members the opportunity to see actual evidence that answers big questions. You are not hurting me but them. I find it interesting that you probably come here for enjoyment and like to learn new things about history. You take, but won't share. What does that say about your caliber. Not good my friend
It is one thing for the US Mint to discard dies that have been cancelled with a big "X" (like the ones buried next to the Carson City Mint). There are several known instances of this.
But it is an entirely different thing for the US Mint to let useable un-cancelled coinage dies escape. The only known instances of that are from the early 1800s. There have been no documented instances since then.
PS: I could probably fake an Italian accent for the movie.
...I am also down to help a little with the film...I have some fun things from that time-period (non-numismatic) that could definitely be used as “props” in a mob-movie...I know nothing about nothing as far as the plot goes though
I was asked to comment on how could someone know ahead of time that a die was going to collapse if there was no visible evidence of that starting to occur.
I have had dies "collapse" on me. The cause was always improper heat-treating (insufficient hardening). Most people think that the purpose of heat-treating dies was to harden the surface of the die so that it won't wear during repeated strikings. But that is not really the main reason for heat-treating. Then main reason is that the core (shank) of the die has to be stiff enough so that it won't get crushed under the high tonnage of striking. A die might be hard on the surface but if the core is not as hard it can collapse. There are a couple things that can cause surface hardening without sufficient core hardening:
1) Insufficient time at the hardening temperature. When hot, the steel hardening process tends to start at the surface first and then slowly progress towards the core.
2) Cooling time too slow. For the hardening to be successful, after the proper duration at high temperature, the die steel needs to be cooled fairly quickly. If the cool-down time is too long, the hardening will not take. I have to take the crucibles containing my dies out of the kiln while they are still at 1,900 degrees F. I set them on a brick on the concrete floor and point a fan at them. If I just turned off the kiln and left the dies in there they wouldn't harden properly.
When I have had heat-treating failures, upon attempting to strike with such dies, what starts to happen immediately is the die diameter begins to increase. With every strike, the die diameter gets a little larger and the length of the die gets a little shorter. Eventually, the die gets too large in diameter to fit in the collar. Once this happens, the only thing that can be done is to grind some metal off the perimeter of the die so that it will fit in the collar again. Coins struck after that will have the appearance of having narrower rims. But usually within the first 10 strikes or so, a improperly-hardened die will have distorted to the point that the rims are gone from repeated grinding and the die is still getting stuck in the collar. At that point, the die is scrap.
If a hardness test is done on a die, that can only reveal the hardness at the surface (not at the core).
If the entire die (including the surface) was insufficiently hardened, a hardness test would reveal that.
If no hardness testing was done, there would be no way for a person to know ahead of time that the die was going to collapse, unless that person happened to know the production history of that die and that it was never heat-treated.
Upon attempting to use the die, it would quickly become apparent if the hardening was insufficient.
If 50 high-relief Saint-Gaudens coins were struck from the original dies while one or both dies were collapsing, there would be a visible progression (from one strike to the next) of the design details expanding in diameter while the rims would likely be getting thinner.
t-treated.
You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?
"You mean you wouldn't get 40 Omega-less coins that are so perfect that they still haven't been detected to this day?"
The amount of acceptable production would be related to the degree of insufficient hardening.