Did you all see the new PayPal refund policy?
U1chicago
Posts: 5,957 ✭✭✭✭✭
I haven’t seen this discussed here yet.
The big one is:
“We’re changing how we treat refunds. If you refund (partially or fully) a transaction to a buyer or a donation to a donor, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller will not be returned to you.”
So how will this play out? Just another cost of doing business? Will more people not offer returns on coins now that the seller has to eat the full 2.9% fee?
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There is NO WAY to not accept returns on coins, especially if the payment was made via PayPal. The buyer can always file a charge back.
Yes, it is just a cost of doing business. [Which is why people on this board who are always criticizing dealer business models should try and run a coin business first...]
Well, this ought to make a good number of people change their return policy to "no returns". Why should I pay for a tire kicker to return a coin? Any other auction all sales are final.
What ever happened to buyer beware?
I’m asking if more people will say they don’t allow returns. Yes we know that anyone can do a chargeback, but will more sellers still try stating no returns or minimize their use of PayPal?
I started my eBay store back up three months ago after not selling anything for years there. I offered free returns but am regretting it. I have had three returns so far (about 100 coins sold), and they are a major pain in the neck. I think a lot of people just use them as an excuse for window shopping and tire-kicking. One guy returned two coins from real $0.99-start auctions because he "just didn't like them." Total $60 for the two coins. He couldn't use the eBay system to return both (it's admittedly probably clunky), so I just ate the PP fee for the second and sent him the full amount PP F&F. Then he reported me to eBay because he couldn't find the money, which was sitting in his PP account for three weeks, and couldn't find my email since the transactions were closed. Gee, thanks for that! I lost two hours of work doing all the paperwork and an hour of sleep.
I won't. Because flip the question around: How many people on this board would by a coin over the internet from a seller who refused returns?
I just got a return this week. First one of 2019. Just under 600 transactions through March 31. That's pretty typical for me. I got 3 or 4 last year on 2200 transactions.
Free returns get expensive when you pay shipping both ways for people looking for rips. eBay did away with restocking fees awhile ago. I might just start charging a higher shipping fee. Even with 99 cent start auctions you get returns (I just didn't like it (auction closed closer to my max bid than I wanted and in hand I see I bid too much))
I had not had a return in ages then a guy returns a $500 coin out of buyers remorse - nice coin totally blindsided. Needed the money to pay tax bill.
After getting the coin back issued refund. It took them 2 days get the money from my bank account on the refund transaction (had already been transferred not anticipating he would return). A few days go buy get email from him where is his refund. I told him “check with PayPal” as at that point it’s beyond my control. Couple days later he gets refund via e check. Blocked him. Numerous annoying emails. Don’t care for these people.
Once at a show I had a guy bring a scarce $300 NBN I had sold him back to my table wanting $50 back. At first thought was kidding, blindsided. He said some other dealer trashed the price somebody who did cheap foreign stuff. I think it was prob a lie. I told him “u go back and tell him I said he is full of it and stay out of my business.” The guy then wanted the $300 back. I told him sight seen transactions final and he was standing there w his is coin club buddies and all three backed down. No way I was doing that return, pounded by down market needed the money.
At the next show at that venue shared table w guy who did prob Coins. 55 ish fellow from NJ but residing in Dallas we talked about Jersey (had traveled there on business) but he had obvious bad heart problems - coin cases to heavy for him carry in he said he had to pull off I45 coming down from DFW. Totally legit dealer coins in details holders raw properly labeled.
Later in the show he told me he was worried a guy would come back next day and want his money back on $3700 sale. It was a better date coin considerably discounted from CW Trends. I believe the dealer had won it from TTR for $1600 a real bargain. He had been excited about the sale. He asked me what should he do if the guy comes back wanting refund. I told him “no way / that certainly is not chump change” and shared the above story with him. He seemed to get a scared look prob terrified of a similar scenario. Told him sundays so slow here hardly worth it. He left early the next day, Sunday the dealers customer did not come back as far as I know. Prob cracked details slab put coin in album. Sometimes wonder fate / guides put me setup next to that dealer - a confrontion like I had with those club guys may have killed him and sure he needed the money. I told A friend Bobby who also sets up about this - he said “I just offer them 25c on dollar buy back as this is what settled my credit card lawsuit for when banksters sued me.”
For eBay we have no choice (cost of doing biz) my main concern is the return being lost / stolen in transit / scammer. They refunded my fvf. A week later some retail sales out of the blue made up for the sales loss. I have 14 day return privilege to block those who would shop it around / play games.
For shows I would suggest note on back of biz card “Sight Seen Transactions Final” inside display case if not sign outside.
Wow! Just another thorn in selling on the internet. I haven't received notice from paypal yet. Reminds me of the old billpoint or what ever ebay used to call their payment system in the late 90's. Had a dealer take a shot at me on some nice midgrade key date buffalos's and paid with billpoint. He was obviously hoping for XF's even though I graded them VF. Yeap...he returned over $1000 worth of Buff's and I had to eat the fees.
I have only had three coins returned where I had to pay the shipping both ways(free returns). All 3 were very accurately described and pictured. The funny part of all 3 of those was I accepted a pretty much lowball offer just to move them along!My policy is I ban you immediately. I have had a few other returns from decent ebayers... due to buyers remorse but they did pay the return shipping. I allow 2 of those before I ban. Eating return shipping is bad enough!
I've been phasing away from ebay with out much success. This might be the final knife in the back that makes me quit altogether. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay shipping and paypal fess on a return. The only solution is for ebay to allow restocking fees again.
Looks like I might just go from semi-retired to retired.
I guess one way to look at it, would be to ask yourself if the aggravation for presenting your coins to the single largest buyer audience available is worth it or not. If not then go elsewhere. All businesses have expenses, the owner must decide when the cost is too high.
From a buyer's point of view: I have had to return more items(5) that I purchased in the last year than in the whole 15 years I have been with ebay as a buyer/seller. The sellers photo usually tells all. If it is a quality(not professional grade) photo of the coins then I can usually tell by this that I will keep the coin. When the coin photo is sketchy is when it becomes a gamble. I do not buy coins whose photo is at an angle, just one side shown, or out of focus. In this day of great cameras, even in cell phones, when someone provides you with an out of focus photo it is usually for a reason. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have another account I use to sell. I charge shipping and do not allow returns. So far all have been happy and I haven't had a single return. The funnier part is ebay treats that account better than my big account! Guess it's cause they get 10% instead of 5.4% in fees although they get 0 listing or store fees from that account. That account has been averaging close to 500 free listings per month and I have been using them.
I'll just about guarantee you all the free listings will disappear now that all fixed price have to be GTC Do people really pay 35 cents to list something on eay fixed price?>
I will not sell on eBay . The BS&T is your friend as are B&M and local shows.
When I had my shop, Yellow Pages was ridiculously cheap on one line "Name and number only" listings.
It would behoove eBay sellers who do any ...substantial...sales to get a listing.
It's ....usually....pretty simple to find the sellers on Google if you use their shipping location as seen in the listings.
Doesn't help the occasional seller, but for the power seller and others who do any volume, it sure does.
This should be great news for Great Collections.
maybe sellers who don't accept this change as reasonable will state a "restocking fee" to discourage returns. is that allowable at eBay??
one thing that is allowable is to Block bidders who return items and state that in a listing.
I understand jmalanzaf's points, they are good one's. what I don't understand is the presumption by DollarAfterDollar that returns are made by "tire kickers" as if to imply that there aren't plenty of good reasons for a return. I would think a SNAD claim is legitimate and quite often with coins the returns are based on poor pictures and wishful descriptions.
Accept the return and block. No exceptions.
Well we won't have to worry about it for too long, ebay will be changing payment processing to Adyen then we can see what new crazy policies we have to deal with.
Maybe eBay won’t refund the seller fees either in the future?
I have been hesitant - a no return policy may drive away sales. One could do “free shipping” and charge a hidden transaction fee tack on say $5 or $7. A mail order dealers ad I look at onbreg basis charges $7 ship on transactions under $500.
Or higher if CDN bid (or cost) plus 10pct (wholesale st shows), bid plus 20 pct compete retail at shows, bid plus 40 pct for eBay and their maze of fees plus shipx transaction fee tackon.
How has no return policy worked for you? Maybe I should try that.
I don’t sell a lot (usually less than 20 listings at any given point), so my experiences won’t translate to those with many listings.
No returns probably drives away some potential sales but it also may help direct sales towards those that don’t tend to return items. If someone contacts me before a purchase and asks about returns, I’ll usually agree to allow it as long as the person seems decent and agrees to cover return shipping (I had one of these recently-the person liked it and there was no return).
I think returns are nice to have, but not everything should be subject to returns. I hear people complain about bad pictures, but that is part of the risk (one might get a great deal based on the bad picture but it’s like playing the lottery-if you lose, then you knew the risks going in).
As a seller, don't even list your items as "no returns' as that means nothing.
The buyer can still return it if there is a problem.
Just go along with the silly rule change.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
On the very few coin sale transactions I've had on E-Bay (the past couple years) I've always offered a "no questions asked" return policy. In my opinion my pictures are excellent and almost everything is in a PCGS or NGC slab. With proper descriptions as well, returns shouldn't happen.
"Not as described" becomes hard to accept when as a seller I do everything they demand. Having 100% feedback on a thousand transactions should indicate a level of confidence a buyer should get. If returns ever got out of hand I'd have to then become proactive since I've never blocked anyone ever.
You could file a charge back from BST and the same thing would happen if you allow paypal
You have been lucky! While I don't have many returns most have been accurately graded and pictured PCGS graded coins. I'm sure 1/2 of which have been tried to flip for a quick buck.
Yup. I did it this week with my 1st 2019 return. If it was a regular customer or it was an oversight on a raw coin, I could not have. But it was a slabbed 64 with multiple photos fron different angles. I can't run an approval service.
I found the free returns to be a killer. There were a couple of buyers that would buy coins from me, shop them around at a coin show, then send back what they didn't sell. I noticed this practice the week before a big coin show.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
A SNAD on eBay (significantly not as described) will always get a refund, regardless of what the seller indicates so that has never stopped me from buying a coin if a seller indicates they don't "accept returns". Looks like the best way to combat being out 2.9% on a return is by having a 2.9% restocking fee if an item is returned without cause or something similar... ebay gets worse and worse for sellers each day.
Yeap...but ebay doesn't allow restocking fees any more. I find it funny when you issue a refund through ebay you have the option of refunding as little as 50% of the original amount. Has anyone tried to issue a refund on a return for less than the full purchase price? I would be interested in the outcome if you have!
Correct description, good photos equal no returns.
yet, it is just a matter of time.
I doubt by law that paypal could keep unearned money on returns, no other bank or business entity could get away with that. They can send out notices on new policies, my guess the application of this one is something else.
Ebay was preventing top sellers from getting their 10% final value discount back, I always updated my listings though I have had very few returns. Their new policy was the one month 'free' returns. When I saw that they weren't giving me the 10% fvf, I contacted my state AG/consumer agency and got my 10% back within hours!
People always have a right to returns, no seller likes those but there are good reasons for them. It strikes me as immature for sellers always wanting transactions to go their way.
I agree. Which is why it is ridiculous for sellers to get all upset about returns. They have been offering free returns to customers for as long as they were using CC or PayPal payments. You can only control returns on cash transactions where there is no automatic chargeback option.
Worse assumes to much. If the marketplace is better for buyers, it ends up better for sellers. Imagine a loss of trust in eBay buyers because eBay did not allow returns without a 20% restocking fee, for example. You could celebrate it as a victory for sellers. But the victory is Pyrrhic because the number of buyers would decrease.
People hate change. People take a narrow look at the effects of that change. As BUYERS, we all want the right of return yet some of us (not me) are objecting to their customers having the same right when they are the seller.
Returns are as old as mail order. Without returns, ecommerce would shrink immediately. You wouldn't dare buy a shirt from Walmart if you couldn't return it if it didn't fit. Would you buy a raw coin from anyone if you couldn't return it if it had a problem? Return privileges create confidence, confidence yields sales. Free returns keeps eBay competitive with Walmart and Amazon which have them and so it is GOOD for sellers.
The problem isn't eBay. The problem is the coin market. Coin margins are ridiculously small. I had someone last year who wanted to return a $7 proof set. He had paid me $10 total. If I accepted the return, I'd be out $6 and shipping and still own a $7 proof set. I told him to just keep the proof set and refunded his money which saved me $3 in return shipping so I was only out $8 on the deal. But $8 is roughly the profit on 8 similar proof sets!!! But that really isn't eBay or PayPal's fault, it's the coin market's fault.
LOL is all I can say!
I will not buy without a return privilege nor will I sell under the new rule and accept PayPal. There are alternatives to PayPal. I think the new rules will harm PayPal's market share especially with retailers.
Works for me.
Are the same idiots that are running EBay now running PayPal?
That may well be true, but I see a fairer representation of a coin on the BS&T than on eBay.
The reverse is also true. Treating sellers badly will drive sellers away from a venue. This will result in reduced competition, fewer choices, and higher prices. As prices increase and quality sellers leave, buyers will also move on. Everyone loses.
I've often wondered how ebay could force sellers to only accept paypal. My knowledge on the subject is this is an illegal "restriction of business trade". I have been hoping a few bigger sellers would get together and legally challenge ebay about this. I have lost many sales from people who will not use paypal(message me asking if I will accept a check and then unable to purchase). In the past it worked OK as they could buy the item without paying instantly and I was fine waiting for their check to arrive in the mail. Now ebay pretty much requires instant payment on all but a few users. I have never required instant payment myself.
The thing I've noticed happening to me recently is a buyer buys a coin, pays right away, then within an hour or so (Sometimes within 15 minutes) asks for the sale to be cancelled. Sounds like I will now be out the Paypal fee on these. Is this happening to anyone else?
Yeap...found one a little cheaper(even though lessor quality). Been there and done that. Oh, I bought this by mistake...Yeah, Right!
Is this sarcasm, I can't tell. Sounds like a difficulty for all sellers using PayPal
I doubt Great Collections allows many returns...1 time as a courtesy and likely not a 2nd. @ianrussell
I’m not sure how common it is with coins, but others have mentioned this on different forums. I only recall one case where someone bought a coin from me and then started “researching” it (and eventually concluding that he didn’t want it).
A big potential issue is competitors buying items and then requesting to cancel. They can force a seller to eat the fees while getting their own money back.
I wonder if there will be any protections for this if eBay/PayPal notices a pattern of someone buying and canceling transactions in large amounts?
Happened to me maybe 4-5 times in the last year or two. They buy an item, pay via PayPal, then immediately request cancellation and refund (which is mandatory per eBay rules). So, you're initially out $0.30 in PayPal because of how they do refunds and then must relist your item. Not a huge deal. But then a few weeks later, you get an email from PayPal saying that that buyer's echeck payment was bad and hopefully that email also says that they will be taking the loss and you won't be losing anything more out of your account.
This new rule about losing all of the PayPal fee may have me looking to find another way to take payment than PayPal. Not sure that works too well for eBay though... for now, I guess I'll just email PayPal and eBay and tell them their new policy sucks. If enough do that maybe it will get reversed.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I did a search on my emails and found the notice of change. There was something else that had me scratching my head, and that was having a cash balance. They are going to do something different. I wonder if they got a warning abut banking rules? If you sell, how do you not have a cash balance?
This is clearly an exaggeration or outright lie given the number of professional dealers on ebay. Is there some crap listings? Sure. But there are plenty of high end dealers also
They would have the same charge back problem. Might be a lower number if they vet bidders. But all retailers have had chargeback issues since CCs were invented
Selling since 2001 on the bay and have had to eat plenty over the years due to less than honest buyers.I have had only 2 returns to deal with so far this year as I take extra time and make a strong effort to examine closely and make note of anything that can't easily be seen in the pics.I also ask that the bidder ask questions or for more pics....I think I'm doing my best to be up front.I do allow returns but state that the buyer pays return shipping......well,it doesn't matter what you write....no returns....doesn't matter.....restocking fee.....doesn't matter...buyer pays.....doesn't matter.There are less than honorable people out there and they don't care about my business or my money in the least.This latest return is a buyer who bought a paper money note from me listed as "crisp and with no pinholes or tears".He complained that the note wasn't "crisp enough"!!!!!!!!!! (which by the way is a lie, plain and simple as the note is unusually crisp which is why I made note of it).....just so he wouldn't have to pay the return shipping.....and come May 7th I will lose an additional 3%.How can anyone expect to do business in an atmosphere where your "partners" (that's eBay and PP) are thieves? PP has no legitimate reason to take the 3% (they already keep the 30 cents) other than simply to make more money. Spoke with PP today about this change and was told (very coldly) that they would be happy to close my account.......I'm dead serious! Again,I say/ask....who wants to do business with people like that!?!?!
This is my opinion whether you like it or not. I have dealt with far more bad dealers than good on eBay. If you disagree, that's fine. Resorting to name calling is childish and does nothing to further the discussion.