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Calling on Professional Graders and Attribution specialists
Aspie_Rocco
Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have lots of questions about how the professional graders and attributors got their position. I have a desire to one day work as a professional with Variety attributions. Rather than say any more, I hope to get the thread moving with some commentary from the professionals, past or presently employed...
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
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Be careful what you wish for. I know that I would find the work to be a grind. You have time quotas to fill, and for every great and interesting coin you might see, there will probably be 10 to 20 others that will be "just stuff."
I know I'd go crazy trying to attribute Bust Half Dollars. The series does not interest me, and I have never found the Overton book to be user friendly. I know that there is a new book. Maybe it's better.
I'll may write more this weekend but lately, the fast track seems to be by attending the ANA Summer Seminars.
You sure you’re not @Insider2 s son or bro
Well, I started my own business doing variety attributions several hours a week to earn some money to spend on coins. I don't know that I'd want to dedicate myself to doing it all day, every day, on someone else's schedule. It would be quite the grind. Some coins go quickly, some take a while and are frustrating to attribute.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
How many millions of bucks have you gotten for your efforts?
Fortunately, they broke my mold; however, he sure does post as I do!
Great minds... something something dark side? No, there is some quote about... in Crete minds think alike... or Great Lakes think of minds... it sounds like the crepes mine, think I like it...
yeah
Lol. I actually imposed a similar concept question on him directly before making this thread. With his suggestion of making it a more public Q & A, I posted this to maximize input and information for all.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I think one question you'd want to ask yourself is will you want to still work on and build a personal collection outside of work. You may tire of looking at coins all day as a professional.
@Aspie_Rocco Based upon what I have seen and read here you have a great attention to the minutest detail. I would think you would do great as a grader/attributor... but, doing this as a job versus hobby is a big jump.
Regardless, I think you can do it. The fact that you are actively seeking advice from current and former specialists in the field indicates to me that there is a certain passion for what you are seeking. I do recall a similar post of yours awhile back.
I would try to seek some type of apprentice position so you actually get the feel of the occupational versus hobby aspects.
You have probably have seen these but others may not.
Forum’s host grading procedure (graders start at the 1:50 mark):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hAQv6qmGcis
Other vids:
https://www.pcgs.com/education
"I have lots of questions about how the professional graders and attributors got their position." How do graders get their positions? By being a good grader.
I have often wondered how graders do get their positions... However, I am not curious because I would like to do that work... on the contrary, no way could I sit at a position and view coins for 8 hours a day....That would quickly have me running out the door... Cheers, RickO
@Aspie_Rocco
As Bill and Riko posted, grading coins is not what most imagine, I think I've had the best overall situations every place I've worked as it is only on rare occasion that I've ever felt pressure and I have never wished I were doing something else.
Company profit is generated mainly by volume. An ideal service would be funded by the interest from a massive endowment so even if it got no business, the total expenses would be covered and it would still generate a profit. After I joined the ANA's authentication service it was generating more income than expenses. We made more money than the rest of the ANA combined. We were the "tail wagging the dog." That's one reason it was moved to CO in order to get the income under better control of the ANA. Total independence on the whims of the market, and submissions means a grading standard can be "fixed" and remain in place no matter what! This is the standard, use us or not. There is no ideal TPGS's. For some of the luckiest employees, it can be an ideal job.
The new folks that are burning their eyes out grading modern Proofs and bullion may not agree but it is a foot in the door and advancement is common.
Obviously, the smaller the volume, the less strain on a grader. The largest company I ever worked at was still a relatively small operation that generated big profits yet was an easy-going family-like group back then. We were told to get up and take a break anytime and a great carry-in lunch was provided. If I wished to spend five minutes recording a coin's diagnostics, no problem. It is not the same there now since I've moved on.
I've already posted that the Summer Seminar is the fast-track. Make yourself like a sponge, join coin clubs, read, take classes, volunteer at a local coin shop, etc. Acquire knowledge and get noticed. Many in my generation were basically self-taught. It is much easier today to do this with the Internet and chat boards. I got my "break" when a local dealer recommended me to a board member when ANA was looking for a clerk. Within two weeks, it became obvious that I could be of better use in the authentication room and my training began.
You are the key to your future. Another way into a TPGS is to first become a successful coin dealer.
Looks like they were still using the first blue label slabs that had series and coin numbers on them when they recorded this video. I wonder if things have changed much over the years.
You could do this on your own. On Monday, buy a monster box of 2018 Silver Eagles. Grade the whole box. Every day for the next 4 days grade the same box of ASE’s again. If by the end of the day on Friday you don’t want to kill yourself, you probably have The Right Stuff!
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
I still want to get hired by a major TPG for attribution work. How can I, literally, get my foot in the door somewhere?
Rocco for Variety attribution 2019
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
If they pick new graders from a one summer grading course, then that explains a lot! No wonder the grading/attributions were all over the place. I'm glad there is now new management.
I don't know how I missed this NONSENSE until now. I have know idea who you are, if you understand what you read, what you THINK you know, or how long you have been a Professional (?) dealer/numismatist. One thing I do know is some of the young folks who have taken the ANA classes have been either hired by TPGS or have become major players in the coin market.
Furthermore, should you ever get the chance to closely examine as many coins quickly during your entire lifetime as go through a TPGS in a year or two, it is certain that some outsiders may think your grading and attribution skills are deficient too.
Come on man. This isn't the complain about TPGs thread. Behave.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
This is a cool video showing the graders from ATS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA7eN8ypSpw
My YouTube Channel
Very neat video. I was impressed with the way the grader slides valuable coins in and out of the flips like there is no possible way the "sharp" edges of the flips could impart hairlines?
I always take a lot of care doing the in/out, but then generally I don't do it hundreds of times a day.
@georgiacop50 said: "Very neat video. I was impressed with the way the grader slides valuable coins in and out of the flips like there is no possible way the "sharp" edges of the flips could impart hairlines? I always take a lot of care doing the in/out, but then generally I don't do it hundreds of times a day."
After many experiments over the years IMO, 98% of the opinions that flips and slides cause hairlines are parroting a common myth that has been handed down by the unwashed to the unwashed for as long as I can remember.
Yes it can happen and probably has especially when "grit contamination " of some kind gets into an album page/slide. Nevertheless, it must be extremely rare because try as I can, I cannot duplicate it without doing something STUPID to make sure I can cause a hairline to appear.
I just did another one of these (boring and unnecessary to me) experiments to take some photos for your enjoyment. I took one of my BU silver eagles and tried to scratch it with the pointed corner of a hard flip. No hairlines under 25X. Next I took a pointed wood toothpick and scratched as hard as I could in the same spot. You'll see a stain from the wood oil (?) rsidue. I removed it with acetone and cranked the power up to 40X. I can just start to make out a tiny imperfection in the area - not a hairline. You probably will not be able to see anything in the 40X image.
Anyway, trust me that our coins are pretty tough after all. I'll try to post the images today. Otherwise, next week.
PS I cannot wait to watch the video. Thanks for posting it.
Perhaps PCGS will give us an inside look at what they do at shows!!
Its the proofs where I really get concerned. I agree that most mint state coins are pretty tough.
Just watched the video. I disagreed with two coins - especially the 1901-S Morgan graded MS-65; BUT I did not see the actual coins. Besides, Mark can grade rings around me! I believe the most important thing to take away from this presentation is the fact that many coins take a lot longer to examine/grade than just a few seconds.
Perhaps the longest was about 50 seconds and the average was probably around 20 - 25 seconds. We can lower these times a little because IMO this is a little like a "movie" and the graders were acting just a bit differently than normal.
I was curious about that watching the video, thinking maybe they hammed unit up a little, or behaved differently or awkwardly around the cameras.
Disclaimer: I do not say that in a negative way, and do not intend any negative implications.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
You can ruin a good hobby by doing it for a living.
Actually, when you can turn your hobby into a profession you'll never work a day again. You'll also learn faster and see more things.
That is what I was thinking.
Or for comparison, that it would be like being a fat kid with a season pass to Disney land and a million dollar gift card for the snack bar.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I don’t know how anyone could keep good time grading a submission of 1827 CBHs. Soft strikes or wear might further complicate that. Overton uses the T-I relationship as a key diagnostic, and sometimes the I is gone. I give the graders credit.
As long as you don't have to work directly with the public. This is what drove me from retail coin selling. I actually told one customer to go to another shop - he wasn't worth the aggravation. He told me that "the customer is always right", to which I responded, "but that doesn't mean he isn't an a$$hole."
What is the turnover rate at the TPGs? How long does a grader last in the industry before they move on to another aspect of the business, or go into something else?
It's not as glamorous as one would think.
I used to grade diamonds and that definitely sounds glamorous, but let me tell you, after 3 or 4 hours of constant grading, you're definitely mentally exhausted and you have to force yourself to stay consistent with your grading standards as fatigue can definitely make one very sloppy in their work.
The easy part was grading for color and clarity, but when it came to determining the quality of 'cut', measuring table percentage, crown height, pavilion depth and so forth, was a pain in the you-know-where.
As mentioned above, it was easier grading high quality, large diamonds compared to the cruddy small, low quality stuff that was sent off to the discount retail stores.
All in all, one has to experience this 'grading' profession (coins, diamonds or any other object) before one can accurately describe how it's like.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Aspie why not go into business for yourself?
Work on the skillsets needed to grow an (online) coin business.
I just saw the grading video.
Holy smoke! There wasn't too much difference between the 84-s and the 01-s!!!
I think the 84-s is an ms62 and the 01-s is an ms64.
As a side note, why are they so strict on the 84-S dollars?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I like this idea but I am uncertain how to implement it. I use eBay as my online store, or collector/dealer connections to move inventory.
Currently I hunt varieties for my main set, collection, to trade or to attempt to resell them for a profit.
I have operated an eBay seller account for several years now, having various degrees of success and sometimes loss.
Hey, lol I just had a sale as I typed the last part.
Liquidity has been an issue since I actively started buying coins to flip.
Some coins go fast while others sit until I sell at a loss. It is enjoyable to hunt and analyze coins, but I can only afford to buy so much, then I am stuck waiting to sell or submit before I can get fresh material again. Or the materials to search run out. I have picked through local shops and eBay for available varieties.
I commonly look for about 20-40 different varieties each day, and I keep thinking how stimulating it would be to actually get to physically sort through large quantities of coins.
The hunt is thrilling, but so is cross referencing coins against published varieties for die markers or diagnostics.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
If I were hiring for a variety designator, I can’t think of a better trait than someone with functioning Aspergers. Especially one with a passion for the topic. Worth the investment in training such a person.