blackhorse360 - That is simply normal distribution among a population of the coins. Some received excessive counting and re-counting, others sat quietly in their original, tightly packaged bags. Some Eagles went to Europe direct, but export records show most went to Central and South America.
For example: a bag of Eagles was sent to Chile in payment for guano; this was shipped to London in payment for railroad equipment; in London it remained in a bank vault until after WW-II when it was transferred - still unopened - to a broker for sale to investors. While in London the bag might have been earmarked for various accounts many times, but never physically moved. These coins would be in excellent condition.
An identical bag of Eagles went to Argentina in payment for a wheat contract payable in London. The bag was received at Banco de Republica in Buenos Aires, opened, counted, rebagged, shipped to London, opened, counted, shipped to Berner Kantonalbank in Switzerland, opened, counted, shaken, weighed, re-counted and bagged, shipped to Berenberg Bank in Luxembourg, weighed and counted, boxed with others into units of $25,000 face, transferred to 9 investment firms over15 years, etc., etc. These coins would be baggy, scraped, finger marked and generally rendered valueless as numismatic items.
@RogerB said:
blackhorse360 - That is simply normal distribution among a population of the coins. Some received excessive counting and re-counting, others sat quietly in their original, tightly packaged bags. Some Eagles went to Europe direct, but export records show most went to Central and South America.
For example: a bag of Eagles was sent to Chile in payment for guano; this was shipped to London in payment for railroad equipment; in London it remained in a bank vault until after WW-II when it was transferred - still unopened - to a broker for sale to investors. While in London the bag might have been earmarked for various accounts many times, but never physically moved. These coins would be in excellent condition.
An identical bag of Eagles went to Argentina in payment for a wheat contract payable in London. The bag was received at Banco de Republica in Buenos Aires, opened, counted, rebagged, shipped to London, opened, counted, shipped to Berner Kantonalbank in Switzerland, opened, counted, shaken, weighed, re-counted and bagged, shipped to Berenberg Bank in Luxembourg, weighed and counted, boxed with others into units of $25,000 face, transferred to 9 investment firms over15 years, etc., etc. These coins would be baggy, scraped, finger marked and generally rendered valueless as numismatic items.
That would certainly explain some of them. some are just insanely baggy!
@RogerB said:
blackhorse360 - That is simply normal distribution among a population of the coins. Some received excessive counting and re-counting, others sat quietly in their original, tightly packaged bags. Some Eagles went to Europe direct, but export records show most went to Central and South America.
For example: a bag of Eagles was sent to Chile in payment for guano; this was shipped to London in payment for railroad equipment; in London it remained in a bank vault until after WW-II when it was transferred - still unopened - to a broker for sale to investors. While in London the bag might have been earmarked for various accounts many times, but never physically moved. These coins would be in excellent condition.
An identical bag of Eagles went to Argentina in payment for a wheat contract payable in London. The bag was received at Banco de Republica in Buenos Aires, opened, counted, rebagged, shipped to London, opened, counted, shipped to Berner Kantonalbank in Switzerland, opened, counted, shaken, weighed, re-counted and bagged, shipped to Berenberg Bank in Luxembourg, weighed and counted, boxed with others into units of $25,000 face, transferred to 9 investment firms over15 years, etc., etc. These coins would be baggy, scraped, finger marked and generally rendered valueless as numismatic items.
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
blackhorse360: I believe the present would be a great time to get a nice, true 65 or maybe 66 for my type set, I am hoping to find a nice piece other than the 26 or '32, or perhaps even a semi-key
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
blackhorse360: I believe the present would be a great time to get a nice, true 65 or maybe 66 for my type set, I am hoping to find a nice piece other than the 26 or '32, or perhaps even a semi-key
A proof would be very cool too. With common dates in PCGS MS66 CAC going for $15k-$20k (the cheapest I could find in the Heritage archive when looking at the last three years was $14k and the prices seem to be going up), I'd consider using that money as a down payment for a proof. The proofs have absolute rarity.
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
blackhorse360: I believe the present would be a great time to get a nice, true 65 or maybe 66 for my type set, I am hoping to find a nice piece other than the 26 or '32, or perhaps even a semi-key
A proof would be very cool too. With common dates in PCGS MS66 CAC going for $15k-$20k (the cheapest I could find in the Heritage archive when looking at the last three years was $14k and the prices seem to be going up), I'd consider using that money as a down payment for a proof. The proofs have absolute rarity.
A valid point definitly worth considering, and I will. Thanks!
@blackhorse360 said:
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
blackhorse360: I believe the present would be a great time to get a nice, true 65 or maybe 66 for my type set, I am hoping to find a nice piece other than the 26 or '32, or perhaps even a semi-key
A proof would be very cool too. With common dates in PCGS MS66 CAC going for $15k-$20k (the cheapest I could find in the Heritage archive when looking at the last three years was $14k and the prices seem to be going up), I'd consider using that money as a down payment for a proof. The proofs have absolute rarity.
Wow! That’s a great point I’m going to look into that.
The Proof coins are nice, but the price of an MS-65 but be little more than a down payment. I sold this one when I was a dealer 20 years ago. The price was north of $25,000 back then. It was a Matte Proof-65. It would have graded higher IMO, but there is a struck through thread on the date.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I agree a proof would be really nice to highlight a type collection, but upon further review-and in checking 'coinfacts; I am Now back down to earth and will be looking for a nice ms65 specimum hopefully in the 1908 through 1916-S piece. The big jump between ms65 and ms66 and proffs being very expensive caught me surprised. Maybe I can hit a couple of shows the next time I am in the States. Thanks Bill Jones and Blackhorse360!
Really happened. Quote from an accurate summary paragraph in Wikidoodle:
"The War of the Pacific (Spanish: Guerra del Pacífico), also known as the Saltpeter War (Spanish: Guerra del Salitre) and by multiple other names was a war between Chile and a Bolivian-Peruvian alliance. It lasted from 1879 to 1884, and was fought over Chilean claims on coastal Bolivian territory in the Atacama Desert. The war ended with victory for Chile, which gained a significant amount of resource-rich territory from Peru and Bolivia. Chile's army took Bolivia's nitrate rich coastal region and Peru was defeated by Chile's navy."
The nitrates were ammonium nitrates from bird poop - guano.
@BillJones said:
The Proof coins are nice, but the price of an MS-65 but be little more than a down payment. I sold this one when I was a dealer 20 years ago. The price was north of $25,000 back then. It was a Matte Proof-65. It would have graded higher IMO, but there is a struck through thread on the date.
Without trying to open a can of worms regarding the size of premium “the market” gets for cac’d coins, a lot of it has to do with the percentage of coins in a particular date/grade that gets cac’d. As a generalization, for many coins, if the cac’d pop is over 20%, the differential in price won’t be nearly as much compared to a much lower cac’d percentage. For example, 1904 Liberty Double Eagles (the most common date) have over 12,000 graded as MS65 by PCGS and NGC, but only about 3.75% of those merit a CAC. In terms of absolute numbers, while that low percentage is still over 400 coins with a CAC, the fact is those without a CAC regularly sell for about $2,500, while those with a CAC almost always sell for $3,800 - $4,300 or so in today’s market. As a side note, even those in this grade with a CAC still vary quite a bit regarding how baggy they are, with the baggier ones selling at the lower end of that range, and the “nicer” ones at the higher end.
So while it’s perfectly fine for an individual to decide not to pay more than x% premium for a coin with a CAC, the fact is that in some cases that person will just not be able to buy/find a particular coin with a CAC at that lower pricing percentage premium (and that’s ok).
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Comments
blackhorse360 - That is simply normal distribution among a population of the coins. Some received excessive counting and re-counting, others sat quietly in their original, tightly packaged bags. Some Eagles went to Europe direct, but export records show most went to Central and South America.
For example: a bag of Eagles was sent to Chile in payment for guano; this was shipped to London in payment for railroad equipment; in London it remained in a bank vault until after WW-II when it was transferred - still unopened - to a broker for sale to investors. While in London the bag might have been earmarked for various accounts many times, but never physically moved. These coins would be in excellent condition.
An identical bag of Eagles went to Argentina in payment for a wheat contract payable in London. The bag was received at Banco de Republica in Buenos Aires, opened, counted, rebagged, shipped to London, opened, counted, shipped to Berner Kantonalbank in Switzerland, opened, counted, shaken, weighed, re-counted and bagged, shipped to Berenberg Bank in Luxembourg, weighed and counted, boxed with others into units of $25,000 face, transferred to 9 investment firms over15 years, etc., etc. These coins would be baggy, scraped, finger marked and generally rendered valueless as numismatic items.
@RogerB Chilean guano, seriously?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
That would certainly explain some of them. some are just insanely baggy!
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That makes a lot of sense Thanks!
So what do you guys think the odds are of a bunch of MS-65 Indians flooding the market in the future?
Unlikely myself....
My YouTube Channel
Not good. The incentives are there for them to be on the numismatic market. Holding them off the market makes no sense.
Exactly! That’s why I think the Real MS-65 Indians and i stress the word “Real” for the grade are undervalued. I think this makes them a great buy at $2300.00 to $2400.00 common dates of course. Having said that there are only 2 common dates in 65 and it’s the 32 and the 26 but I’m beginning to discover that the 26 in 65 is much more rare then people realize.
That is indeed batshit crazy!
blackhorse360: I believe the present would be a great time to get a nice, true 65 or maybe 66 for my type set, I am hoping to find a nice piece other than the 26 or '32, or perhaps even a semi-key
A proof would be very cool too. With common dates in PCGS MS66 CAC going for $15k-$20k (the cheapest I could find in the Heritage archive when looking at the last three years was $14k and the prices seem to be going up), I'd consider using that money as a down payment for a proof. The proofs have absolute rarity.
A valid point definitly worth considering, and I will. Thanks!
Wow! That’s a great point I’m going to look into that.
The Proof coins are nice, but the price of an MS-65 but be little more than a down payment. I sold this one when I was a dealer 20 years ago. The price was north of $25,000 back then. It was a Matte Proof-65. It would have graded higher IMO, but there is a struck through thread on the date.
I agree a proof would be really nice to highlight a type collection, but upon further review-and in checking 'coinfacts; I am Now back down to earth and will be looking for a nice ms65 specimum hopefully in the 1908 through 1916-S piece. The big jump between ms65 and ms66 and proffs being very expensive caught me surprised. Maybe I can hit a couple of shows the next time I am in the States. Thanks Bill Jones and Blackhorse360!
Really happened. Quote from an accurate summary paragraph in Wikidoodle:
"The War of the Pacific (Spanish: Guerra del Pacífico), also known as the Saltpeter War (Spanish: Guerra del Salitre) and by multiple other names was a war between Chile and a Bolivian-Peruvian alliance. It lasted from 1879 to 1884, and was fought over Chilean claims on coastal Bolivian territory in the Atacama Desert. The war ended with victory for Chile, which gained a significant amount of resource-rich territory from Peru and Bolivia. Chile's army took Bolivia's nitrate rich coastal region and Peru was defeated by Chile's navy."
The nitrates were ammonium nitrates from bird poop - guano.
Your Welcome my Friend!
Without trying to open a can of worms regarding the size of premium “the market” gets for cac’d coins, a lot of it has to do with the percentage of coins in a particular date/grade that gets cac’d. As a generalization, for many coins, if the cac’d pop is over 20%, the differential in price won’t be nearly as much compared to a much lower cac’d percentage. For example, 1904 Liberty Double Eagles (the most common date) have over 12,000 graded as MS65 by PCGS and NGC, but only about 3.75% of those merit a CAC. In terms of absolute numbers, while that low percentage is still over 400 coins with a CAC, the fact is those without a CAC regularly sell for about $2,500, while those with a CAC almost always sell for $3,800 - $4,300 or so in today’s market. As a side note, even those in this grade with a CAC still vary quite a bit regarding how baggy they are, with the baggier ones selling at the lower end of that range, and the “nicer” ones at the higher end.
So while it’s perfectly fine for an individual to decide not to pay more than x% premium for a coin with a CAC, the fact is that in some cases that person will just not be able to buy/find a particular coin with a CAC at that lower pricing percentage premium (and that’s ok).
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996