Miracle--coin shop owner fails to make offer on nice coins
logger7
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I was at an instate coin shop that makes a living on buying and selling--you guessed it with coins. A customer comes in with nice old holder coins, saying how eager and primed he was to sell his collection that was in a large presentation box, largely Morgan dollars and the dealer says the market is way down, come back when it goes back up! These were almost all old holder PCGS coins, and I didn't want to be rude by ogling them.
Not my shop, we are both members of the same coin club. I thought of saying I would broker the dealer and give the dealer a fair percentage, or list them on ebay at fair prices as buy it nows. But I didn't want to step out of line. As a customer in his shop was there anything I could say?
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"If you're not keen, do you mind if I have a look?"
Smitten with DBLCs.
I have been in shops where the shop owner quickly sizes up customers. For those customers who the dealer believes are knowledgeable about coins the dealer will not give the customer the time of day.
I think this happens because:
If the dealer buys coins he will want to buy them from persons who know little about coins (i.e. widow of a deceased collector, kids who inherited dad's collection, etc.) so he can buy them for a mere fraction of their true value; or
If the dealer sells coins, he will sell overgraded coins at inflated prices to persons who know little about coins.
When I am in a shop such as this, I leave as soon as I get the idea the the dealer would have no interest in doing business with a knowledgeable collector.
Wow! You really hold coin dealers in low regard although I can sure understand where you are coming from..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’ve had more than one B&M dealer mention to me that when a collection comes in that the owner built, any number you say won’t get it bought and if it’s not built by them (heir) almost any number can get it bought.
Maybe the guy was doing the person a polite favor or at a min not wanting the difficult explanation of why he could tell the deal wasn’t for him so fast.
Off loading a collection walking in a shop this way, in my opinion, is selling the cost of tying up capital and time retailing the product onto the dealer. The offers tend to be as strong as the time it will take to convert back to cash, If a dealer has instant places to sell the product the higher the bids and lower if the dealer has no place to go with them.
If the hit is too hard to swallow for the seller, then taking the time and energy to market and sell them yourself. In my mind, this is the mainpoint of a coin negotiation, what is the cost to carry the weight on the transactions
What kind of a presentation box? One of those telemarketer things?
You seem to be surprised and then understanding. Why can you understand this?
I've had coin dealers try to rip me off. I showed one coin dealer a Saint Gaudens gold coin that I was considering selling. He told me it was counterfeit (I knew it was quite real) and then made me a low ball offer on it. LOL. I had another coin dealer try to sell me a counterfeit gold dollar. When I pointed out that it was a fake he didn't have the common decency to at least pretend to be surprised. I can tell other stories but I'll spare you. That said, I know many honest trustworthy coin dealers that I've had the pleasure to be associated with including many that are active here and are willing to share their time and knowledge with us. I give all my business to those dealers.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Umm, wow. A dealer knowingly trying to sell you a counterfeit. And also claiming yours is a counterfeit, but one that he wants to buy? Both of those are pretty low.
There are some good dealers out there, but defensive collecting is a good habit to have!
I believe that when you find a good coin dealer that's willing to work with you and treats you fairly that you should stick with him or her and form a mutually beneficial long term relationship.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PerryHall.
Many coin dealers are top notch and I hold them in high regard.
However I have encountered some dealers who are not interested in selling to or buying from knowledgeable collectors, probably for a number of reasons, some of which have merit and some of which have no merit.
One local shop I have stopped by three times over 5+ years. Each time the dealer has been been unwilling to show me any stock and has been unwilling to engage in conversation. I do not understand why he acts this way.
I have seen other dealers act the same way towards others.
These dealers are exceptions to the rule, as most dealers are friendly and open to dealing with potential new customers.
In this case if I were the dealer I’d pass as well. Morgan’s are common and don’t have enough profit in them to buy in bulk. The other option would have been for the dealer to give what would have been considered a lowball offer. In any case, the dealer is not obligated to buy everything that comes through the door.
If they were common morgans in MS 62 or 63 they are indeed not moving.
So why should a dealer use his limited funds to buy dead stock.??
If this is the case he is doing owner of the coins a favor.
I've seen a dealer sell altered coins. I spoke up and then get tossed. I've seen a dealer offer $2 for a 16-D, 21, and 21-D dimes (he tried to purchase a complete Merc Dime set at bullion). I spoke up and then I get tossed! I will do it again if I see dealers ripping off customers.
Just like your mechanic.
Pretend to be dumb at first
Maybe it was his way of saying he didn't want to buy items he knew had been stolen. No sense in paying for something, then having the police come in and take it all away.
I have worked with dealers that do that. Not good to say, I know that these are not yours, but...
If the dealer turned down the offer, you could have followed the individual out and asked to go to a mutually agreed upon site to view the coins...It is considered bad form to attempt to do business in another person's shop. Cheers, RickO
Etiquette at coin shops is that anyone who doesn't pay the rent shuts up.
I worked in a high end camera shop years ago, selling the finest cameras, enlargers, etc of the day. Also buying high end used cameras, antique cameras, etc, from folks needing money.
After a while, you can quickly size-up a customer based on numerous past experiences with the public, whether it's selling or buying.
I think the coin dealer quickly picked up some signals from this potential waste of time that you didn't notice. This coin dealer sized up this seller as a waste of time, unless the seller retorted with something such as, "I need some quick cash, and want to sell now, and will accept any reasonable offer", or something such as that.
A seller would have to be pretty dumb to say any of those things
Actually, heard one say it today in a coin shop. That said, such comments usually accompany stolen coins.
You didn't follow the caveat "accept any reasonable offer" which depending on the way a customer acts, is usually a bluff. With that caveat, it doesn't matter what the seller stated before then.
When the dealer stated "the market is way down, come back when it goes back up!" and the seller didn't respond with something like I noted, then it was all over.
There is no doubt that if the seller would have stated what I mentioned, the dealer would have found the time to examine the coins and make an offer.
Etiquette is to stay quiet. If you have a long history with the shop owner and have worked well with them in ntge past you could just ask why they passed; and indicated that you would have been an interested buyer. Honesty tends to be best policy in these situations
a couple of other dealers in my area are slimeballs as well. operate under the same things noted above, (not all of them, but many)
if they cant buy the stuff slam dunk, they pass. Folks coming in that know their stuff, they offer consignment, or pass altogether
In some cases, some don't have the funds accessible either to buy a decent size deal.
I might add, just this week: One of the dealers here locally, bought 2 $20 gold coins (both polished, but still gold), 1 10 oz barsilver, 10 1 oz bars, 1 troy pound round of silver, about 25 face in various 90% coins, 10 common Morgans in UNC, and about 36 grams of mixed 10kt and 14k gold for 900.00 . and then bragged about it
That has to be sized up as well by the coin dealer. Believe me, if a teenage kid came into our camera shop with an expensive Nikon camera, we quickly told him that we weren't interested.
Absolutely +100.
When a deal walks in to a shop, a good regular (or even occasional) customer gets the heck out of the way. There is no correct other etiquette.
And I wouldn't be surprised if that was a better offer than the first coin dealer they took it to.
That gets real awkward as you have to be out there when he leaves, he probably is not expecting someone else who was in the shop to confront him, and with the front windows the dealer is probably going to see this an be upset. His wife was also in the shop today, real estate is slow.
Maybe Phil had done his taxes and was low on cash; from what I could see it was a nice case holding 20-35 coins, a collection, some better dates, but largely dollars. Not hot, the guy looked white collar and professional. He said he was hot to sell his collection. Maybe Phil was suspicious.
👍
If you want to buy the guys coins in the parking lot just wait till he gets near his car and then rush at him shouting
I think this nails it. Absent the crook (which is still possible) then it's about the margin/ time relationship.
I tell mrs baley not to waste any hours trying to sell small stuff on craigslist, just donate it. Similarly, i have pounds of cheap coins to sell but no time to do it..
This. If he drives away, follow him honking and flashing your lights.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I was thinking waiting for him, either hiding in the bushes and jumping out with a strong redneck accent "I done seen your coins and they were beautiful and I want them". Or checking to see if his car is unlocked and get in the second row of seats hiding below waiting for him to drive away and jumping up affecting fanatical interest would also do the trick of really getting his attention.
And your Doctor and Lawyer as well.
Isn't the name of the game buy low sell high?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I guess I'm really lucky to have 2 LCS's where i can send people and not worry about a friend getting taken advantage of.
I remember walking into a shop in Cali. back in 03. The owner took one look at me and said "You got something to sell?" So I replied with "You got a 92-O half?" he snarled "No" and told me his assistant would help me. I asked her to see the Barber Quarters. There was a VG+ 97-S, one of the few on my list. With no prices on the flips, I asked how much? She took it to him, he grumbled something at her. She came back and said "seven" I put $7 down and walked out instantly. To this day I wonder if he priced a 97 plain or said $70 in an aggravated voice and she heard 7. But don't feel the least bit bad about it. Had he acted differently, I would have questioned her about that price.
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Same goes for your dentist. Never go to a dentist that’s going through a divorce or putting a kid trough college.
It seems from reading through the years here about these "ripoff" offers by BM dealers, that it is relegated to just them. I have experienced at shows less than fair offers for my material. Fortunately, I knew what I had in value. They just were not aware of my knowledge. I did eventually find a dealer at the show who was more than fair. So it is not just the BM dealers who should get all the blame. Guess who I deal with now?
It behooves everyone selling anything to have some freaking idea what the gizmo is worth!
No.
But when the market is down, sometimes you can't sell at all. And there's no guarantee the market will go up.
As the dealer, I will always make an offer. The problem is that your offer in a down market could potentially offend the seller, even though it's fair, and so it is sometimes better to defer.
I think you likely analyzed it right.
It's possible though that the dealer got his hand caught in the mousetrap in his own little game. I never did this, but sometimes when it was just me and the boss in the store on a slow weeknight, and we were just shooting the chit about sports and other subjects waiting for customers to come in...a customer would come in looking for a camera, my boss would show it to them, and when they asked the price, I recall the first time my boss did this, I'm standing there in the background listening to the sales process to learn, and he quotes the couple a price around $100 below cost, and I jumped like a cat who had been startled. The customers had their backs turned to me so they couldn't see me, but i sort of wanted my boss to see me and the bewildered look on my face to get him to perhaps rethink that price quote.
Well, the customers still didn't buy it, despite the amazingly low price, and after the customers walked out, I of course asked the boss why did he quote that price? He retorts, "Steve, I knew they wouldn't buy it."
I saw him do that a few other times over the years and he was right every time. I guess it was just morbid entertainment to him, having a good laugh to himself or whatever. Perhaps it's silly things someone begins to do after many years of dealing with the public who in some instances can be a real pain in the neck.
So I'm saying maybe he did that with you, with the $7 price, "knowing" that you weren't going to buy it anyway. But he certainly screwed up if that's what he did. Again, I think you're probably right about the assistant not correctly hearing the price. But that would not be a very good assistant in a coin shop if she didn't know the pricing difference between a $7 and $70 coin.
In any event, it was a nice little score for you, from a grumpy coin dealer. And I'm sure he got a lot grumpier when he realized a $70 coin went out the door for $7.
I would not personally try to get a shot at coins that walked into someone else's shop, even if they passed on them.
Here are two possibilities for why the dealer was uninterested:
1) He saw a receipt or a price on one of them that indicated the customer bought them at inflated prices. His reputation suffers if he "lowballs" the customer by offering fair prices, and they get angry.
2) If the dealer is not the most upstanding guy, perhaps he didn't want to offer his usual price (which is way less than fair) with his fellow coin club member standing right there.
As a customer in his shop was there anything I could say?
Unlike the stock market, there are no standing offers to buy coins from owners who want to sell them. A business person only wants to tie up his cash in inventory that he or she thinks will sell in a reasonable amount of time that will produce a reasonable gross margin. (Gross Margin = Selling Price – Cost of Item Sold).
Certified common date Morgan Dollars have been a drug on the market for a long time. Yes there have been periods when stuff like an 1881-S in MS-65 has sold for $100 or more, but those days have not been around for a while. When I was dealer at the shows, I often had other dealers flagging me down to ask if I wanted to buy their common date certified Morgan dollars at wholesale prices (e.g. 10% in back of "The Sheet."). If they were really nice for the grades, I’d consider it. Otherwise I’d pass.
Just yesterday, I had a guy come in with some gold, the prices on them were clearly from the 80's, yet I offered him fair prices for the stuff. Example : common date UNC $10 Libs, the prices on them were about 300, I paid him 610.00 each,
Xf/au $5.00 Libs had prices like 175.00, paid 300. he had a 48-c charlotte 2 1/2 with a price sticker of 400.00, I paid him close to a 1k, (it was only a lower grade).Never seen him before, and I am sure I probably could have got them cheaper, but my business has survived in this market due to being fair. (course to be honest, so have the others survived, because all they have to do his hit somebody hard once a week or two and are good to go. Not the same shop noted above, but another shop close to here, bought a complete set of morgans minus the 93-s for 8x face!!!
(he made a killin, just selling it to me)
business owners do not turn away profitable business. For whatever reason this dealer did not see a profitable transaction. Who is harmed in this situation? Nobody.
Morgan Dollars, Lincoln Cents and Gold are what support an overwhelmingly large percentage of the Hobby. the fact that this dealer passed on a group of coins that was "largely Morgan dollars" should send a message.
we always buy Morgans but they are only easy to sell lately in certain grades. these coins graded MS63 and MS64 are so numerous in PCGS/NGC holders that they are a true widget, maybe the poster child for what a widget is. on top of that, on average an MS63 isn't a very appealing creature, MS64's only a little moreso. who wants a common date widget in a slab?? we don't have many collectors express interest in them. however, we can sell lesser or higher graded coins.
my boss just puts them raw in plastic bowls by grade and priced from $16-$25. maybe we only make a few dollars on every coin but it keeps the cash moving. buying the dog MS63 ties up cash. I always tell my boss that we should pass on that sort of stuff and let the guy down the road tie his money up for six months.