When should grading services not grade a baggy gold coin?
logger7
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Example 1: 
Example 2: 
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logger7
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Comments
Why Not ?
Just because a particular coin has more, or larger
bag or contact marks, why should that prevent
a coin from being graded?
Damage is something else, but both examples
jus show bag marks/contact marks.
Of course they will be incorporated into the grade.
It is up to the coin's owner whether to submit a coin for grading. If these were mine I'd send them both in if even only to find out. Just my opinion; that's all.
For gold coins, I think authentication is worth the grading fee regardless of how baggy it is...
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Both coins appear to be in slabs. Agree with Fred, natural bag marks, which will be accounted for in the final grade.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
I would have guessed “obverse damage” on the $10 piece.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Difference in opinions between baggy or cuts.
The Indian looks beyond bag marks to me but I know nothing about gold what's considered acceptable.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Agree with MFeld, looks like someone took a tomahawk to it.
That is what the grades MS60 and MS62 are for.
I'm seeing a lot of deep digs in the $20 gold piece as well, way too many for a straight grade; the $10 gold piece has one serious hit, another not so much and other scrapes.
Logger asked: "When should grading services not grade a baggy gold coin?"
NEVER
The obsolete "Technical Grading System" used a description for coins that fell between MS-60 and Damaged. We graded them: Uncirculated, excessive contact marks.
Commercial graders usually use MS-60.
Neither of the coins you have posted would qualify for "excessive marks."
IMO, the $10 can go either way (low MS straight grade or detailed. It is MS) as it is damaged (big scrape).
Agreed...$10 Indian is a "liner", but the $20 Lib is certainly should be graded.
Whenever, or when ? Never.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Here are a few more examples, each was called damaged: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1879-s-20-obverse-damaged-ngc-details-unc-ngc-census-107-249-pcgs-population-44-307-mintage-1-233-800-num/a/1198-11772.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#
One this 76-cc HA says that the damage mentioned is unapparent: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1876-cc-20-damaged-ngc-details-unc-variety-3-a/a/1166-6683.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
One with scrapes on reverse: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1851-20-reverse-damaged-ngc-details-unc-ngc-census-13-54-pcgs-population-7-106-mintage-2-087-155-numismed/a/1182-8613.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515#
Obverse damaged: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1874-20-obverse-damaged-ngc-details-unc-ngc-census-108-155-pcgs-population-51-149-mintage-366-800-numisme/a/1181-13329.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
Another obverse damaged: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1874-s-20-obverse-damaged-ngc-details-unc-ngc-census-185-375-pcgs-population-92-285-mintage-1-214-000-numisme/a/1157-9935.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#
Another one called damaged: https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-double-eagles/double-eagles/1875-20-damaged-ngc-details-unc-ngc-census-165-536-pcgs-population-132-448-mintage-295-740-numismedia-wsl-pr/a/1156-9482.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515#
When they don't grade a baggy silver coin or a baggy copper coin, etc.
Ex.1 has sufficient wear to be a pleasant EF. The bag scrapes are part of its heritage and don't change the "grade." However, no one is going to buy it at the same price of an EF with fewer marks....but - that is a market decision, NOT a grading one.
Ex.2 is harder to evaluate but might be uncirculated, but badly banged up. In this case it would be MS-60, but suffer from the same problem in getting a favorable price as Ex.1.
Accurate, effective, stable coin "grading" never presumes to determine individual taste. It also returns to collectors much more control over selling and buying each coin. Coins are not stock certificates where each share is equal and indistinguishable. Thus, no sight-unseen presumption will ever be more than guesses built on assumption about the TPG and seller.
On this case, PCGS called the first MS60: https://www.ebay.com/itm/173756048991?_trksid=p2323012.m570.l5997&_trkparms=gh1g=I173756048991.N34.S2.R2.TR5
The second was "reverse damage".
As mentioned above, I would send them in if only for authentication. Sales of raw gold are hampered by the doubt of authenticity. Cheers, RickO
Never
MS60 is an appropriate designation. At least the coin is mint state. Details may be added for damage / harsh cleaning.
Bag marks just show the coin had a history.
Example 1 the 1854 $20 not that bad.
IMO, saying such ugly coins can't be lower than 60 is just as silly as saying a gorgeous coin with a bit of rub can't grade higher than 58.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Exactly what MS60 & 61 are for...
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If TPG grading was really about determining the level of wear and preservation, I understand you are correct and agree with you. However, under "market grading", I don't see how it makes any sense to ignore how a coin looks. I interpret the posts here to be taking both positions.
Under market grading, my opinion is that the coin should be in a straight or details holder based upon whether it is "market acceptable" to those who predominantly buy it. So for example, I was recently reading complaints elsewhere about early large cents with surface problems (corrosion or environmental damage) in numerical holders but presumably "net graded". Apparently, this is acceptable to EAC and if it is, then I would say that these coins should be "straight graded" whether anyone else agrees or not because to my knowledge, this group is the most influential in setting the standard for "market acceptability". Most others who disagree probably aren't even buying these coins.
In the example of the 1854 DE in assigning a "market grade", I don't consider the coin a "widget", so I would "straight grade" it. Conversely, I'd "details grade" an identical 1904 because it is nothing more than bullion.
@Baley said: "IMO, saying such ugly coins can't be lower than 60 is just as silly as saying a gorgeous coin with a bit of rub can't grade higher than 58."
This post is a perfect example why grading is discussed and many will never agree. It is the "value/eye appeal" thing again, and again , and again, and...
The obsolete true Technical Grading (done with no regard to value and only concerned with the coin's condition of preservation from the minute it was struck) eliminated everything that concerns this poster. A coin would REMAIN in MS condition if we caught it from the press an drilled a hole through it. We could take the next from the press and saw it in half. Still MS, however now we need to describe them as Uncirculated, holed and Uncirculated, sawed in half. There value would also drop considerably.
While a perfect coin with an extremely flat strike and no trace of an ear is still MS, once we rub off the original surface on the high spots of a fully struck and otherwise perfect coin it is no longer MS. This one is worth money, and the flat one gets melted unless I see it fist.
I remember when one of the major coin dealers adopted the term "cabinet friction" to describe the AU's he was selling. Now the same coins are considered low MS.
I'm not trying to change anything (I just lied). What is will continue and as prices go up, more grading changes are in store.
@WCC said: "If TPG grading was really about determining the level of wear and preservation, I understand you are correct and agree with you. However, under "market grading", I don't see how it makes any sense to ignore how a coin looks..."
"Under market grading, my opinion is that the coin should be in a straight or details holder based upon whether it is "market acceptable" to those who predominantly buy it."
AMEN!
WCC - I agree with you. The difficulty is the "assumed methodology" that pervades the industry and creates confusion, instability and basic ignorance. Prayers and Amens won't change failures of the present approach.
No, no it wouldn't.
But there IS a new Most Ridiculous Thing I've Read You Write.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@RogerB said: "WCC - I agree with you. The difficulty is the "assumed methodology" that pervades the industry and creates confusion, instability and basic ignorance. Prayers and Amens won't change failures of the present approach."
AMEN!
@1peter1223 said: "Not gold but a coin that IMO should have been "Details" graded because of the huge gash."
Apparently there are a few highly paid professionals who don't agree with you. It is too bad we are not allowed to discuss it further here.
So you would straight grade that Bust Dollar??? I'm sorry but I would not!
All coins can be assigned a Quality grade from 0 to 70.
The question is, do you think it's a 61, or some other number.
The Bust dollar is obviously not a 2 or a 10, nor a 67 or 69...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I had a thread that questioned graders who graded a gold coin when I thought it should have come back cleaned, and it was closed.... yet this one is allowed? Weird.
@Insider2 said: "Apparently there are a few highly paid professionals [AT NGC] who don't agree with you. It is too bad we are not allowed to discuss it further here.
@amwldcoin asked: "So you would straight grade that Bust Dollar??? I'm sorry but I would not!"
LOL, I posted my original response with something added [AT NGC] that should not have been necessary.
The forum rules apply here. I'm following them. However, since you made a statement I'll reply. You don't work at NGC so what you or I would do is just an opinion that does not matter to anyone at NGC.
I would not assign a grade the $10 Indian. Those marks look deep and perhaps even intentional.
So far as the Bust Dollar goes, I would never buy that piece for anything close to MS grade price.
When does a bag mark become a scratch? When is a scratch a result of "normal circulation"? None of us were there, so it ends up completely in the eye of the beholder.
BillJones hit the nail on the head. What the professional grader decided is only the first step in the buying decision. You have to decide for yourself. We've all "passed" on coins because of marks, or scrapes that don't fit our criteria, either for the coin or for the grade.
"Details" coins are not all worthless, and straight graded coins are not all desirable!
From what I have seen age of when the marks occurred play a role on how coins get graded. If they are old, somewhat softened with the passage of time, I don't see any reason why the grading service should not straight a coin, or net it down enough to send a message on value.
Being in the quest for an $10 1907 Indian, I've never seen such trash, IMO these compete with bullion coins. I'd hate to have so much dead money in this BIG batch of MS60 or AU55s.
Quite frankly someone must have bulk graded some of these(smarter), I believe they were in the special Saint Gaudians marketing labels. They were not given a MS grade, but uncirculated, I can agree with that. Let me know how that works out for you dealers because it doesn't appear they're flying off the shelf. I see a future promotion in the works to purge these. We'll see🤐
I have an MS60 in an older NGC holder $5 indian that's a great collector coin that would match any 61/62 in that stuff today. Usually I drop down to a 58/55 but the 55s are extremely scruffy 🤔
As they say beauity only skin deep but ugly goes all the way to the bone😎 I'll let you guys suck the dozens of examples out there up. JMO
@TommyType asked: "When does a bag mark become a scratch?
Good question and very easy to answer: NEVER! That's because they are completely different and never appear similar in any of their degrees of severity.
@1peter1223 ... Obviously no.
Well, that 1910 $10 Indian sure looks like it has a scratch, vs. a bag mark. Same for the 1803 Dollar. BUT...apparently in the grader's eyes, each coin had enough other desirable attributes to just ignore them? (Not saying that's not their prerogative....just saying the buyer/collector doesn't have to agree, just because he says so....).
(BTW....I rather LIKE the 1803 dollar....not so enamored with the $10 Indian.)
One wonders what an identical 1803 dollar without the mark on the cheek would grade...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Because that looks like a 5 or 10 point cut right on the face.
Exceeeept, what if it's a (plausibly) contemporaneous 200 year old "test mark"? Is that considered "normal circulation action"....
Exceeeeept, coin is Mint State Uncirculated??
Both OP gold coins look circulated as well.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
MS? More Scratched?
It should be graded BU for Beat Up or Banged Up.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@TommyType said: "Well, that 1910 $10 Indian sure looks like it has a scratch, vs. a bag mark."
Let's write about it if you wish and see if we can come close to an agreement. Hopefully, others will join in.
Look in the field right behind the head if the 1803 dollar. That is a scratch.
I see no scratches on the $10. Perhaps, if the coin is turned in the light and imaged again, the one you see will -op out.
If I were describing the $10 Indian to someone, I would use the word "cut" or perhaps "gouge", rather than "scratch".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah, maybe. But isn't that just semantics? The question(s) still remain, "Can you say without question that it is a result of normal handling?" "Should it be straight graded?" And (my question), "Just because it is straight graded (or body bagged), are you required to take the TPG word for it?"
My point being, whether the TPG decide to straight grade it or not shouldn't automatically dictate what an experienced collector decides.
Well, we are all free to buy the coin, not the holder, so if a few objectionable pieces make it in a holder, we as collectors can ignore them and look for other examples. As for large gold, it is softer and prone to bag / dig marks. Finding another example is probably easier than fretting over the coins that make it in a holder.
I guess that is why there exists the MS60 grade: uncirculated but beat to hell.
I think it's a lot less important how it happened, or what word describes it, or whether it will "straight grade" (an arbitrary opinion line, there are no objective criteria)
More relevant to collectors is, how bad it affects the overall Quality of the coin, how many grading points to deduct, how it affects the price and liquidity of the piece.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
In answer to your questions:
I think it is semantics and I try to go with what I feel will be more descriptive.
My guess is that the coin saw other than “normal handling”, but can’t say for certain.
I would prefer that it not be straight-graded. However, as I have posted a number of times on various forums over the years - I believe that often, the decision whether to straight-grade or details-grade a coin can be as difficult and/or subjective/inconsistent as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign.
Of course, you need not agree with the opinion of the TPG. And even if you do, it doesn’t mean you have to like the coin. I see a great many coins which I believe to be accurately graded, but which, for one reason or another, I dislike.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Unless you are buying sight-unseen the whole discussion seems pretty theoretical/irrelevant. Any buyer will clearly see the mark/cut and price accordingly.
Just because something may grade MS60 doesn't mean it will sell for 60 money. Many 58s sell for 62 money. It is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and no more.
Hmmmm… wasn't that what got the grading services rolling...to be able to buy a coin sight unseen? Yeah...that's not an option any more. Sad ain't it?