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I'm not usually one to bash graders, but....

jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

I completely disagree with this one. Came across it while browsing ebay.


Comments

  • AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's the problem?

  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Graded AU55, actual value F12?

    JR Newsletter Online Edition
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,763 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GRANDAM said:
    What? Cleaned?

    Yes, it's got hairlines all over it. It should be in a "details, cleaned" holder.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭

    On the obv a lot of those lines look raised at first glance.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hairlines on the obverse are visible though not severe IMO. I wonder if some planchet or die issue could have caused the obverse issues? NGC saw it as market-acceptable.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,763 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If those were polish lines, the color should not be so "gray." The mint luster is shot on that piece. The number grade is way off, even if had not been brushed.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • USMarine6USMarine6 Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ya that one is a head scratcher

  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    If those were polish lines, the color should not be so "gray." The mint luster is shot on that piece. The number grade is way off, even if had not been brushed.

    I am not saying if it should be holdered or not with the grade au55... but a lot of those lines are raised and savvy members know what that means plus grading from a pic can be troublesome.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,806 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't forget that Indian $2.5 and $5 gold coins have an incused design and have no raised rims to protect the fields. When these coins are slid across a gritty surface such as the counter top in a bar, store, bank or counting house, they will get hairline scratches. I've seen many of these coins with similar hairlines that were never cleaned.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fc said:

    @BillJones said:
    If those were polish lines, the color should not be so "gray." The mint luster is shot on that piece. The number grade is way off, even if had not been brushed.

    I am not saying if it should be holdered or not with the grade au55... but a lot of those lines are raised and savvy members know what that means plus grading from a pic can be troublesome.

    I'm going to stay out of this one except to add this. I do not recall EVER seeing a $2 1/2 or $$5 Indian with RAISED parallel lines due to die polish. If you have one please post it.

    I have seen hairlines as this on cleaned incuse coin's and on incuse coins struck on planchets with fine striae. This genuine coin appears to have striae from the planchet and hairlines from mishandling. Perhaps an AU-53 would be more appropriate but in this condition, the value is probably the same from XF+ to AU-55. Am I correct about its value?

  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @fc said:

    @BillJones said:
    If those were polish lines, the color should not be so "gray." The mint luster is shot on that piece. The number grade is way off, even if had not been brushed.

    I am not saying if it should be holdered or not with the grade au55... but a lot of those lines are raised and savvy members know what that means plus grading from a pic can be troublesome.

    I'm going to stay out of this one except to add this. I do not recall EVER seeing a $2 1/2 or $$5 Indian with RAISED parallel lines due to die polish. If you have one please post it.

    I have seen hairlines as this on cleaned incuse coin's and on incuse coins struck on planchets with fine striae. This genuine coin appears to have striae from the planchet and hairlines from mishandling. Perhaps an AU-53 would be more appropriate but in this condition, the value is probably the same from XF+ to AU-55. Am I correct about its value?

    I can be wrong. Looking via a cell phone. But on the chief's face and some other areas... dont those lines look raised?

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good eye!! Net grade that coin by sending it to PCGS!

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,763 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fc said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @fc said:

    @BillJones said:
    If those were polish lines, the color should not be so "gray." The mint luster is shot on that piece. The number grade is way off, even if had not been brushed.

    I am not saying if it should be holdered or not with the grade au55... but a lot of those lines are raised and savvy members know what that means plus grading from a pic can be troublesome.

    I'm going to stay out of this one except to add this. I do not recall EVER seeing a $2 1/2 or $$5 Indian with RAISED parallel lines due to die polish. If you have one please post it.

    I have seen hairlines as this on cleaned incuse coin's and on incuse coins struck on planchets with fine striae. This genuine coin appears to have striae from the planchet and hairlines from mishandling. Perhaps an AU-53 would be more appropriate but in this condition, the value is probably the same from XF+ to AU-55. Am I correct about its value?

    I can be wrong. Looking via a cell phone. But on the chief's face and some other areas... dont those lines look raised?

    The Indian's face really does not matter. The whole obverse, but especially the right side screams "CLEANED!" And if those are all or most polish lines, why are the surfaces so dull?

    Compare it this lightly circulated piece.


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is exactly what I see too. However, IMO, Just a Trick of the light makes them LOOK RAISED. I do not recall EVER seeing a $2 1/2 or $$5 Indian with RAISED parallel lines due to die polish.

  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭

    I will admit I am against the majority opinion and therefore wrong. Thank you all. Not my series. Just looked raised to me in different spots.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019 1:21PM

    Guess the grades!
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1013222/guess-the-grades-of-2-barber-halfs-spin-of-from-bashing-graders/p1?new=1

    Moved here so I don't make insider2 fall out of his wheelchair! ;)

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019 12:44PM

    @fc said:
    I will admit I am against the majority opinion and therefore wrong. Thank you all. Not my series. Just looked raised to me in different spots.

    I delight in going against the majority and I'll boast of a very good track record. Although one member thinks I'm a no-it-all, I certainly am not. So..I'll say that you may not be wrong yet. The coin needs to be imaged in a different orientation to the light to see if the lines are actually raised. :wink:

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    Harshly cleaned. Sometimes lighting can make it look more so, but dang. Not sure how this one straight graded.

    More lines than Disney World!

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Guess the grade!


    Grade 20 I bet
    I would have said 15

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I added another for comparison!

    @No Headlights said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    Guess the grade!


    Grade 20 I bet
    I would have said 15

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Guess the grades!




    both should be F-12

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,644 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not convinced it is the same coin that was graded ... if it is, someone popped it out and 'fixed it'
    https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/4697885-001/55/

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    I am not convinced it is the same coin that was graded ... if it is, someone popped it out and 'fixed it'
    https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/4697885-001/55/

    There are a few marks on the obverse that line up.Right next to the mouth on the cheek, and under the chin in the field. NGC pics are always bad, but you can't see the hairlines. It might be a case where they only show up under one light angle, and the seller used the harshest lighting possible.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    Good eye!! Net grade that coin by sending it to PCGS!

    If I got that one straight graded I would count my blessings and leave it alone. Wouldn't feel right selling it, so do not buy coins without good photos. I see so many expensive coins on eBay with awful photos that would not show a problem like that. Be careful. Expensive coins are best seen in hand before buying. Unfortunately not always possible.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019 1:12PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    Guess the grades!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete the images of the 50c coin. Thanks in advance. :)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    I am not convinced it is the same coin that was graded ... if it is, someone popped it out and 'fixed it'
    https://ngccoin.com/certlookup/4697885-001/55/

    I think it is the same coin. The dirt in the letters on the reverse matches up an many of the marks in the field on the obverse match up (not all are visible).

    A couple thoughts:
    Are we looking at streaks or scratches on the plastic holder?
    Which picture is giving a false representation?
    It is always dangerous to think that you can get a definitive grade from a single photograph. So much depends on lighting, angles, etc.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2019 1:13PM

    No! Read the title!

    PS care to offer your expert grading opinion?

    @Insider2 said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    Guess the grades!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:

    Guess the grades!

    @amwldcoin said:
    No! Read the title!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @amwldcoin said:

    Guess the grades!

    @amwldcoin said:
    No! Read the title!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

    I'm with Insider2 on this. If you want to post a coin with a questionable grade as further evidence, go ahead. It adds to the argument of the OP. But if you start playing GTG in the middle of the thread, you've simply hijacked it.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Done! Now go grade them! :D

    @Insider2 said:
    @amwldcoin said:

    Guess the grades!

    @amwldcoin said:
    No! Read the title!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OK, I'll post the results here after a day...Go grade them!

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @amwldcoin said:

    Guess the grades!

    @amwldcoin said:
    No! Read the title!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

    I'm with Insider2 on this. If you want to post a coin with a questionable grade as further evidence, go ahead. It adds to the argument of the OP. But if you start playing GTG in the middle of the thread, you've simply hijacked it.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    deserves "details" designation

    Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Done! Now go grade them! :D

    @Insider2 said:
    @amwldcoin said:

    Guess the grades!

    @amwldcoin said:
    No! Read the title!

    We are discussing a gold coin. Therefore, PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD and delete this post. Thanks in advance. :)

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

    THANK YOU! When someone posts a coin and we start writing about it I get easily confused and don't know who's comments to put with each image. I'm sorry but it is me. I even disagree with jmlanzaf! When we are discussing the OP's coin, that should be the only image in the thread. Then AFTER the OP's question is satisfied, pile on with all the other examples. The 50c coin has nothing on it relevant to the thread. Thanks again. We still don't know for 100% if the parallel lines down the cheek are raised.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,003 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd check the NGC images to compare; considering how strict they have been on problems coins this one is hard to believe.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Holder could have been compromised. I've seen these holders with the coin switched.

    Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @amwldcoin said:

    You of all people show know what hijacking a thread is. So sad but do as you wish.

    THANK YOU! When someone posts a coin and we start writing about it I get easily confused and don't know who's comments to put with each image. I'm sorry but it is me. I even disagree with jmlanzaf! When we are discussing the OP's coin, that should be the only image in the thread. Then AFTER the OP's question is satisfied, pile on with all the other examples. The 50c coin has nothing on it relevant to the thread. Thanks again. We still don't know for 100% if the parallel lines down the cheek are raised.

    Gee, that's what I get for agreeing with you. LOL

  • BrettPCGSBrettPCGS Posts: 159 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Locked. It's not the purpose of this forum to disparage any grading services, including our competitors.

    Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS

This discussion has been closed.