Crossover Results............

Desert Moon · January 21, 2019 4:42PM

Hi Folks,
I am crossing over everything I have in other company holders (40 submitted in 4 separate orders) in order to get ready to sell a portion of my collection, and to try to have all of my US federal coins in PCGS holders. I won't do this for my tokens because of the prohibitive costs vs value added.

So one of my crossovers for 15 bust and seated coinage has been posted and here are the results below. For all of them except Lines 8 and 10, I put in Current, meaning cross at grade. For Lnes 8 and 10, I put in Any, because I believed they were 1 grade lower than the NGC grade. And they came in at 1 grade lower. So everything crossed, all 15. I provide previous TPG grades for each below as well. One numeric upgrade supporting the argument that PCGS grading is tight (which is good). It also confirms what I already knew, NGC and PCGS are pretty close most of the time. I did get + grades for 3 of them because they are eye candy to behold. But it is good to know that my grading seems to agree with PCGS grading. Some images in previous TPG holders below, no coins in hand yet to image.

So 15/15. I think I benefited from learning how PCGS grades (peruse Photograde for example). The one area where I think PCGS and I can disagree is with pre-1933 gold. Sometimes they miss weak strike for individual mintings, which leads to not crossing at grade when they should at grade. You have to study the series in depth to know this so one can't blame the graders who don't have the time to do that. NGC can also miss these things with gold.

Now they go off to CAC when they come back from PCGS.

Best, SH

Submission 181718, Order 21533108, 15 Items

1 1821 10C AU55 (NGC 55)
2 1821 10C AU53 (NGC 53)
3 1830 10C MS63 (NGC 63)
4 1830/29 10C AU53+ (NGC 53)
5 1835 10C MS62 (NGC 62)
6 1836 10C AU58 (NGC 58)
7 1837 10C XF40 (NGC 40)
8 1877-CC 10C MS63 (NGC 64, was overgraded, I expected the 63)
9 1805 25C F15 (NGC 15)
10 1806 25C VG10 (ANACS F12, my grade was 10, PCGS agreed)
11 1806 25C VG10 (NGC 8, surprised at the 10)
12 1821 25C XF45+ (NGC 45, R4 to boot)
13 1831 25C XF40 (NGC 40)
14 1835 25C XF45+ (NGC 45)
15 1841-O 50C AU55 (NGC 55)

Here are some of them:

Now PCGS 55.

Now 53+ and deserving it.

Ooh, ah! No stars in PCGS grades, so stayed 15.

A solid VG10 which is what PCGS decided.

Now 45+ and deserving it. Can you say meaty?

Now 45+ and deserving it. Got color?

cameonut2011 · January 21, 2019 4:54PM

Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

VanHalen · January 21, 2019 5:00PM

15 1841-O 50C AU55 (NGC 45) was a huge 10 point upgrade. Pics?

BryceM · January 21, 2019 5:00PM

Well, this is what happens when you give them exceptionally nice coins to look at. Good job, and even more of a good job for finding coins like this in the first place.

Aercus · January 21, 2019 5:01PM

Wow that is a gorgeous group! I love the 30/29. PCGS loved it too, going by the +. Great eye.

braddick · January 21, 2019 6:06PM

Love the overall look of each one. As a grouping, quite attractive.

Abuelo · January 21, 2019 6:10PM

If anything, I am very happy to see the great degree of agreement between both services. Nice coins.

Desert Moon · January 21, 2019 7:17PM

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

That is a good idea thanks. But to get the bean back on, I have to send in the NGC cert and images of the coin in the slab. CAC keeps the certs. I think they probably send them back to NGC.

Best, SH

Desert Moon · January 21, 2019 7:18PM

@VanHalen said:
15 1841-O 50C AU55 (NGC 45) was a huge 10 point upgrade. Pics?

That was a typo, thanks for pointing it out and I corrected.

Best, SH

cameonut2011 · January 21, 2019 7:41PM

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

That is a good idea thanks. But to get the bean back on, I have to send in the NGC cert and images of the coin in the slab. CAC keeps the certs. I think they probably send them back to NGC.

Best, SH

I hadn't heard that. For every coin I have ever crossed, I just submitted it anew like any other coin. At that point it is re-evaluated without any re-sticker guarantee. I would be surprised if JA sends info back to NGC since it would his census that he cared about (the census/population reports for PCGS and NGC having already suffered years of manipulation and abuse from crack outs, etc.).

Kccoin · January 21, 2019 8:26PM

very nice group. love your CB small quarter

Timbuk3 · January 22, 2019 2:22AM

Pretty good results. I'd be happy. Congratulations !!!

Desert Moon · January 22, 2019 5:43AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@spacehayduke said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

That is a good idea thanks. But to get the bean back on, I have to send in the NGC cert and images of the coin in the slab. CAC keeps the certs. I think they probably send them back to NGC.

Best, SH

I hadn't heard that. For every coin I have ever crossed, I just submitted it anew like any other coin. At that point it is re-evaluated without any re-sticker guarantee. I would be surprised if JA sends info back to NGC since it would his census that he cared about (the census/population reports for PCGS and NGC having already suffered years of manipulation and abuse from crack outs, etc.).

I have never had a coin that was beaned and then crossed not resticker when I provide the certs and the images in their old slabs so that CAC can verify it as the same coin. I don't know why CAC doesn't send me the certs back if they don't send them to NGC. In my altruistic perspective of CAC, I believe they do this (send the certs to NGC) because it is the right thing to do, but who knows.

Best, SH

ricko · January 22, 2019 6:21AM

Excellent results and speaks well of your grading skills. Cheers, RickO

lusterlover · January 22, 2019 7:11AM

Congrats on the results and some sweet coins! Your crossing % is well above the norm - kudos. However, I do respectfully disagree with your comment - "One numeric upgrade supporting the argument that PCGS grading is tight". The pros consider a + an upgrade so you actually got 4 upgrades. That's a 27% upgrade %.....

jonruns · January 22, 2019 7:24AM

Perfect!!

ShadyDave · January 22, 2019 8:28AM

Wow, great job and beautiful coins. Keep us posted on your other submission results.

derryb · January 22, 2019 11:31AM

Fairly stable grading standards on both sides of the street.

mkman123 · January 22, 2019 1:30PM

seems like NGC did a great job grading these as they mostly stayed the same in PCGS holders

Abuelo · January 22, 2019 2:42PM

@mkman123 said:
seems like NGC did a great job grading these as they mostly stayed the same in PCGS holders

Or the other way around?

Baley · January 22, 2019 2:51PM

Nice coins!

I'd like to own one or two of them, however after you've sent them to each coast for new Opinions, unfortunately cannot afford to..

logger7 · January 22, 2019 3:26PM

That shows how with many coins there is a lot of science and non much variability with the top graders.

Justacommeman · January 22, 2019 3:33PM

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

I’m glad that coin crossed and beaned. I found that coin at the Michigan Thanksgiving show along time ago. Dave Wnuck sold it for me several years later. It ended up in great hands. That’s a great idea on that certs. I sold about 30 Star coins that I crossed to PCGS. Didn’t think of that

SH, nice group and good luck!

m

DIMEMAN · January 22, 2019 3:40PM

Way to go SH! Beautiful coins!

coinbuf · January 22, 2019 4:36PM

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

If only I had known that I could have a top registry set without owning a single coin I could have saved myself a ton of money.

Unknown · January 22, 2019 4:45PM

This content has been removed.

cameonut2011 · January 22, 2019 5:26PM

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

If only I had known that I could have a top registry set without owning a single coin I could have saved myself a ton of money.

As long as you own the coin even if in different plastic and have the original NGC insert, I don't see the ethical issue.

cecropiamoth · January 22, 2019 7:05PM

Beautiful coins and that was a great crossover result!! I hope for much of the same when I plan to do a bunch of World coins in April.

Jeff

Desert Moon · January 22, 2019 7:44PM

@Justacommeman said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

I’m glad that coin crossed and beaned. I found that coin at the Michigan Thanksgiving show along time ago. Dave Wnuck sold it for me several years later. It ended up in great hands. That’s a great idea on that certs. I sold about 30 Star coins that I crossed to PCGS. Didn’t think of that

SH, nice group and good luck!

m

Mark, when I saw your ex 15* DBQ at Dave's table I simply said 'its mine just tell me the price'. And of course, Dave being the great guy he is, explained to me why he had the price he had on it and was apologetic for what I thought was a steal!

Best, SH

Desert Moon · January 22, 2019 7:46PM

@cecropiamoth said:
Beautiful coins and that was a great crossover result!! I hope for much of the same when I plan to do a bunch of World coins in April.

Jeff

Let us know how it goes.

Best, SH

coinbuf · January 23, 2019 9:36AM

@cameonut2011 said:

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

If only I had known that I could have a top registry set without owning a single coin I could have saved myself a ton of money.

As long as you own the coin even if in different plastic and have the original NGC insert, I don't see the ethical issue.

I'm sure you don't, a statement that speaks for itself. As spacehayduke is submitting to CAC I have no doubt that JA will do the correct thing which is to return the certs to NGC.

cameonut2011 · January 23, 2019 1:16PM

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Nice coins and great results! When selling the NGC bust coin that previously starred, I would include the label with any sales listing. Some collectors like NGC star coins and seek them out for registry sets. The old cert number will still work for them.

If only I had known that I could have a top registry set without owning a single coin I could have saved myself a ton of money.

As long as you own the coin even if in different plastic and have the original NGC insert, I don't see the ethical issue.

I'm sure you don't, a statement that speaks for itself. As spacehayduke is submitting to CAC I have no doubt that JA will do the correct thing which is to return the certs to NGC.

I'm not sure why your posts are so priggish, but please explain the ethics issue. You have a coin graded F15* in an NGC CAC holder. It is now in a PCGS F15 CAC holder. It is the same coin. Why would it be wrong to place the coin in a NGC registry set using the old tag? The coin is the coin. It hasn't changed nor has NGC's original grading opinion changed. The only real difference is that the NGC guarantee no longer applies, but that is irrelevant for registry set purposes. You're not lying. You're not using a coin that you don't own. The coin is a NGC F15*. It is now also a PCGS F15. You're having a fit for no reason. There is no "right" thing to do. When you submit a coin or pay for a coin, you are paying for the slab, label, and TPGS opinion. You have no obligation to return it when you crack it.

coinbuf · January 23, 2019 3:12PM

I do believe that you are the one having a fit, I'm laughing lol. Me thinks you do protest too much.

cameonut2011 · January 23, 2019 4:36PM

@coinbuf said:
I do believe that you are the one having a fit, I'm laughing lol. Me thinks you do protest too much.

You made a snarky comment to which I initially responded politely. You subsequently questioned my integrity. Of course I'm going to respond. You might not like it but there is no misrepresentation or malfeasance suggested in any of my posts. The fact you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, and you are not some supreme arbiter of ethics.
.

coinbuf · January 23, 2019 4:49PM

So to you fraud is not a misrepresentation or malfeasance, duly noted.

cameonut2011 · January 23, 2019 5:20PM

@coinbuf said:
So to you fraud is not a misrepresentation or malfeasance, duly noted.

You can't be that stupid. It isn't remotely close to fraud. There is no misrepresentation to the buyer or even to the stupid registry. I'm not advocating selling labels to use in a registry without the registrant having physical possession and ownership of the coin. The coin and original grading opinion are unchanged. It might be easy to buy a coin in your preferred plastic when half of your set consists of common date dreck widgets in NGC holders that are a dime a dozen.

Anyway I'm done arguing with you.

coinbuf · January 23, 2019 6:19PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@coinbuf said:
So to you fraud is not a misrepresentation or malfeasance, duly noted.

You can't be that stupid. It isn't remotely close to fraud. There is no misrepresentation to the buyer or even to the stupid registry. I'm not advocating selling labels to use in a registry without the registrant having physical possession and ownership of the coin. The coin and original grading opinion are unchanged. It might be easy to buy a coin in your preferred plastic when half of your set consists of common date dreck widgets in NGC holders that are a dime a dozen.

Anyway I'm done arguing with you.

Ouch I'm deeply wounded by your scathing dig how will I ever recover lol. Clearly it's you that is that stupid, you want to use a TPG cert even tho that con has been crossed to another TPG and down graded. Going from a * or + holder to a non * or + holder is a down grade, using that prior cert is fraud plain and simple. Let me hit you with some knowledge, it seems like someone that wants to start an on-line coin buz would know this, once you crack a coin out of a holder the TPG no longer considers it valid. That means you cannot send in a coin with a cert (random or real) and have it reholdered, it must be regraded because the cert is invalid once the coin is cracked out. THE CERT IS INVALID, is that clear enough for you now.

cameonut2011 · January 23, 2019 9:04PM

@coinbuf said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@coinbuf said:
So to you fraud is not a misrepresentation or malfeasance, duly noted.

You can't be that stupid. It isn't remotely close to fraud. There is no misrepresentation to the buyer or even to the stupid registry. I'm not advocating selling labels to use in a registry without the registrant having physical possession and ownership of the coin. The coin and original grading opinion are unchanged. It might be easy to buy a coin in your preferred plastic when half of your set consists of common date dreck widgets in NGC holders that are a dime a dozen.

Anyway I'm done arguing with you.

Ouch I'm deeply wounded by your scathing dig how will I ever recover lol. Clearly it's you that is that stupid, you want to use a TPG cert even tho that con has been crossed to another TPG and down graded. Going from a * or + holder to a non * or + holder is a down grade, using that prior cert is fraud plain and simple. Let me hit you with some knowledge, it seems like someone that wants to start an on-line coin buz would know this, once you crack a coin out of a holder the TPG no longer considers it valid. That means you cannot send in a coin with a cert (random or real) and have it reholdered, it must be regraded because the cert is invalid once the coin is cracked out. THE CERT IS INVALID, is that clear enough for you now.

You say that my characterization is wrong. Your argument is that it should be disqualified from a registry set. That's fine too. That does not make it unethical nor does it make it fraudulent.

P.S. Where are the official registry set rules? I don't see any or any prohibition of what I suggest. I see wishful thinking and speculation. The rules would control as to whether such a coin would be disqualified.

Crossover Results............

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