What's better 90% or silver american eagles
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If you were going to invest in silver and had the choice between 90% silver coins or silver american eagles, which one would you buy for long term investment? Some friends and I are have a debate and we are tied
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ASE’s personally
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
It is silver either way, for me it comes down to what is the better deal.
If I could buy ASEs at spot, it would be ASE's,
But when they are priced at spot +$2, or more, I'd rather by bars or 90% at spot
or very close to it.
Can’t go wrong with either one. I’ve had much more success moving 90% though. ASEs are easy to sell due to their popularity, but can be harder to get the premium back.
90 percent silver is worn therefore short weight. Eagles will always be worth more. I would never buy junk silver unless it was AU-UNC. But how would I know, I'm not a dealer.
Eagles
I have been buying Walking halves. More fun to look at than the sterile Eagles.
Though this question has come up from time to time on the Precious Metals forum, I'd be interested to get the perspective of non-metal heads.
Several years ago I wrote my World Famous Treatise™ on why 90% is preferable to eagles and pretty much every other silver vehicle (which I've posted a couple of times on the PM forum). I could spend hours countering my own arguments (and hyperbole). But you might find it interesting:
Pre-1965 US 90% silver coins –the very best way to own physical silver. Period.
Pre 1965 US 90% silver is the best choice for investing in physical silver for the same reasons it's always been the best choice. We’ll take a look at some of the reasons below. Consider that these points are valid during relatively prosperous and stable economic times, and that they become even more important in dangerous political or economic environments.
A) Recognition. People from this country and all over the world recognize US coinage, are familiar with it, and are comfortable with it--even people who don't know anything about precious metals. The majority of the US population has no idea what a gold eagle or gold buffalo is, let alone an Austrian Philharmonic or Chinese Panda. And they’ve probably never interacted with a silver eagle, either. They don’t understand what it represents or how it relates to everyday goods and services. And if the average person can’t recognize foreign bullion coins, or even US bullion coins, how could they possibly recognize one of the thousands of generic silver bars or rounds?
But would they recognize a United States dime or quarter? In a heartbeat.
B ) Divisibility. US 90% silver is already roughly 1/10th ounce (dime), 1/4th ounce (quarter), ½ ounce (half), and 1-ounce (dollar) increments. A half dollar contains twice as much silver and is therefore valued at twice as much as a quarter. A half dollar contains five times the silver of a dime, and is therefore valued at five times as much as a dime. You don’t need to estimate, cut, and weigh a piece from a larger bar to create the fraction you need, or re-weigh and agree (or disagree) on the weight for each subsequent transaction. One silver dime is the same as the next silver dime, this transaction and next transaction, and the next and the next. And this pre-established, fractional nature of US 90% silver plays just as important a role in scenarios where you’re selling US 90% rather than exchanging it directly: What if the market spikes and you want to take some profit, or you have an opportunity you want to take advantage of? What if you have an emergency and you must exchange your holdings for cash? If you have US 90% silver, you can simply count the exact weight you need from your US 90% silver holdings to the nearest .07234 of an ounce (the weight of a 90% silver dime) without touching the balance. You can’t do that if you only have 10 ounce or 100 ounce silver bars, rolls of silver eagles (or even a single silver eagle), without cashing in more than you need to. Now consider that if you’re forced to sell because of an immediate need, you may be selling at a loss. Selling more than you have to means taking more of a loss than you need to. And when the need is passed and you can finally reacquire the silver you sold, you may be buying at a higher price to replace the amount you didn’t need to sell in the first place. Owning US 90% silver allows you to move very small, precise amounts because of its divisibility vs. most other silver vehicles.
C) Purity. The alloy and silver content of US 90% is hallmarked by one of the largest and best-known assayers in the world: The US Mint. Their product purity is unquestioned going back to their first release in the 1790s. And the 170-year old ratio of nine parts silver to one part copper is tried, tested, and proven for its stability and durability.
D) Face value. 90% US silver has been, is currently, and always will be accepted by anyone taking US money in exchange for goods or services, because the US has never devalued its currency. A dollar minted in 1797 is still legal tender and can be spent. And though its metal value and numismatic (coin collector) value are worth substantially more than its face value, that face value of $.10, $.25, $.50, and $1.00 provides a bottom below which the value of US 90% can never fall—because if you have to, you can simply spend these coins for the amount indicated on each coin. That never devalued, always honored face value adds to the desirability of these pieces in a way that generic or foreign bullion will never benefit from.
E) Numismatic value. Not every piece and not every grade of every coin has numismatic value--at least not yet. But many do. And almost all have that potential for one very good reason: Despite its many positive attributes, US 90% is constantly being melted. A major reason for this melting is that, for those who deal in futures and options contracts on the rapidly expanding major global precious metal markets, only massive 1,000 ounce .999 pure silver “Good Delivery” or “LBMA” (London Bullion Market Association) bars are traded. These bars are impractical for the average silver investor for the many reasons stated in this treatise (not to mention their minimum cost currently in the tens of thousands of dollars each and sheer weight approaching 70 pounds!) Nevertheless, these large bars are a requirement of international silver commodity transactions. That means more of the finite supply of US 90%--now over 50 years since it was last produced--makes its way to the refiner’s crucibles every day to satisfy the growing demand for these massive bars. Sadly, mass-meltings are nothing new. There have been several periods of mass meltings in the last 40 years, coinciding with each run-up in the value of silver. It’s clear that the supply of 90% US silver is declining rapidly. And brilliant uncirculated and/or early 90%, like Barber coinage, walking liberty half dollars, and even Franklin halves, is much more scarce than most people realize. The pool of extant 90% US silver will continue to shrink as it’s melted to produce these LBMA bars and all of the other needs of the silver industry. And that creates a dichotomy that most investors fail to grasp: The finite and dwindling supply of US 90% silver decreases every day as it’s melted (making it more rare), while the supply of all other new bullion pieces increases as more are produced (making them less rare).
F) Low premium. Despite its numerous advantages, 90% US silver doesn't usually carry a heavy premium—that’s the amount dealers charge to make a profit over the value of the metal itself—relative to other forms of silver bullion. It can even be found with no premium at times because some dealers don’t appreciate its benefits and unload it at the first opportunity. And even when it is sold with a modest premium, 90% US silver dimes, quarters, and halves carry a much smaller premium than fractional silver bullion pieces carry.
G) Low minimum investment. US 90% silver is literally one of the lowest minimum investment vehicles in existence. Even those on a limited budget can buy small quantities of US 90% silver for the price of a cup of coffee. It’s easy to add to a physical stockpile over time with these small investments.
H) Trustworthiness. Because of its small size, ease of recognition, and relatively low value per piece, 90% US silver is one of the least profitable and therefore least tempting targets for counterfeiters here and abroad. That’s not true of gold coins, gold bars, or silver bars, which have all been “drilled & filled” (drilled out, metal removed and filled with base metal). That type of deception would be difficult and not cost-effective with 90% US silver coins. And because of how familiar we are with US coinage, any suspect pieces that are produced would be much easier to distinguish than fake silver bars or gold coins, which far fewer people are familiar with.
Those of us who have experience with US 90% silver are familiar with its attributes. But even those who are less experienced with it can learn these attributes quickly and easily. With no special equipment, balance beam, scratch or acid test or water displacement, we can tell to a very good degree if US 90% silver is real. We can check visually: Is it a US coin? Is it the same size and shape as every other coin in the series in our possession? Are the surfaces uniform? Is there any pitting, flaking, or any other indicator of tampering or inauthenticity? Does it have a pre-1965 date? Is the edge of the coin solid silver in color (as opposed to the sandwiched layers of later non-silver “clad” coinage)? We can check by touch: Does it have the right heft, the same as others we know to be authentic? Are the reeds--the small lines along the outer edge--all present? This feature was added to coinage centuries ago to thwart “shaving” minute amounts of metal from the edge of coins. We can even tell, with some practice, by sound. US 90% silver coinage makes a distinct high-pitched ring when dropped on a hard surface. Fake or base-metal coins tend to make a “thud”.
While none of these tests alone may be 100% fool-proof, combined they give us a powerful and highly accurate series of tests which require no special equipment and which are virtually instantaneous. That’s not the case with any other precious metal vehicle.
And it's no coincidence that these factors are there. These built-in tests have come about from literally thousands of years of trial and experimentation, representing untold billions of transactions with silver coins in virtually every society on earth. Weaknesses exploited by the most cunning criminals in the world, corrected, improved, tried, corrected, improved, etc. until they are as perfect as can be and where all of these factors function automatically without us even thinking about them. They are, to a very large degree, why we value silver in the first place: Its rarity and difficulty to counterfeit makes it a valuable and desirable vehicle for holding or transferring wealth.
Ultimately, for all of the above reasons, 90% US silver wins because of Gresham's Law and supply & demand. Because it's known, because it's recognized, because it's safe, because it's [i]trusted[/i], in whatever level of crisis where metals may be needed, 90% US silver will be the preferred medium of exchange. This preference will make it the most desirable, which will make it the most valuable, and so on and so on. And all of this will simultaneously [i]lower[/i] the value of all other metals choices relative to 90% US silver.
Comparisons: Pre ’65 US 90% vs. other options
US Silver Eagles
Silver Eagles carry a heavy premium. They’re also far less recognized than 90%. And Eagles, at least as of writing, are not offered in pre-weighed sub-ounce units.
Silver bars
Silver bars are not universal in design. Even the largest manufacturers are unknown to the vast majority of the general population. They have virtually no numismatic value or even potential for numismatic value. Their lack of familiarity makes them a good target for counterfeiting. Their quality of assay is unknown. The larger bars are susceptible to drilling & filling, there are very few pieces available smaller than 1 oz.
Foreign silver coinage
Older circulating silver coinage is a hodge-podge of purities, weights, and dates. Modern silver 1-oz coinage (maples, pandas, libertads, etc) are far less well-known than silver eagles, which are far less well known as pre ’65 US 90%.
--Severian the Lame
Both. People feel like Eagle's have to be treated gently. Junk silver can just be thrown in a bag. Eagle's for storage, junk if you need to spend and junk is divisible and has already been used as money and did the job well.
Great write-up, Weiss!
I agree with Weiss that 90% silver is better under circumstances where it needs to be used for transacting.
I have bought and sold Maple Leafs, to a local PNG dealer. I have never bought 90% and only sold it in limited quantity.
Personally, I prefer NCLT over bars and rounds, if for no other reason that it's my understanding Hugh Wood only insures coins. I don't know about home insurance but haven't ever read it's available or economical for large amounts.
I disagree that 90% US junk silver will ever have a numismatic premium and by "ever", in any timeframe which will matter to anyone reading my comments. Enough of it will never be melted and even if it was, still no reason to believe why anyone would want it as a collectible anyway. Much scarcer but still believed to be but not as common low quality foreign silver isn't worth a premium now because no one wants it as a collectible either. I consider it a lot more likely that existing currently common US classics worth a premium now will lose it later than others gaining it.
Since ASEs aren't intended to circulate many folks are persnickety about their appearance. Who wants new stuff at $2-$3 over spot that looks like it got run over by a road grader?
I have no real disagreement with what Weiss has said, other than 90% silver change in volume takes a lot of space. As far as a medium of exchange within the U.S., ASE's are reasonably well known and quite liquid. Mainly due to storage, I prefer ASE's. Cheers, RickO
Yep and that is a liability in its own way. You have to baby your silver. Collector coins have to be treated gently, now with Eagle's you have to do the same with bullion.
I don't hold much of either, but 90% for me. Don't like the premium on the ASEs and they are just all the same to me (modern/non-circulating). I like the variety you can hold with 90%. Prefer close to full weight coins...64 Kennedy 50c, 50's and 60's Washington 25c and silver Roosies and later date Mercs. I would avoid slicks.
Jeff
The 0.715 multiplier for calculating value of 90% takes into account ~2% weight loss for average circulated junk (no slicks/culls). It works fine.
Except for low premium, much of what Weiss said could also be said of ASEs. Note that low premium 90% coins are normally not of collectible quality and only retain their silver value. Also, note that low premiums paid for 90% US coinage remain low when they are resold. ASE higher premiums are a result of demand and reflect their purity and their wide acceptance as a preferred way to invest in physical silver and are normally recouped when they are resold. At their current (and even higher) price the silver investor does not need sub-ounce units of the ASE. While it will always have silver value, there is a reason that "no premium" US silver coinage is referred to as "junk silver."
For these reasons my investment in physical silver is with ASEs.
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It simply depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are attempting to save or set aside some sizable amount of "savings" in physical silver, then large silver bars by a recognized maker might be best.
If you are attempting to make some provision for a massive future inflation (or a 'Mad Maxx'-style 'pockylypse'), then silver dimes and quarters might be best.
If you are just speculating, then going to a genuine brokerage and doing it all on paper might very well be best. Avoid both the premiums for physical AND the hernia.
It just depends on what you are trying to do.
I just despise spellchecker, it will be the death of civilization.
An ounce of silver is an ounce of silver but just try to sell a junk ASE for the same price as a near flawless new one.
That's a trick question 😏 Make a list of pluses and minus, each will be the way to go at one time or another.
Nothing like finding your roll having milk spots and you settle for spot if your lucky, no one wants ugly even in toning. Storage do you want tide degerent 3 X for $10 or the big bottle watered down for $5.97? I figure 3 halves per ounce so that's a overkill on any ware,those rims and high areas have a reason.
Invester or collector🤣 Trust me I was just ask that, when your in this long enough your hobby can be a huge investment over time like your 401k and it's life cycle.
What happens if silver does go to 100 an ounce? Do you want that taxable event on an 100 bar to get the best deal? Do you play poker? I want a bunch of little chips instead of being all in or out. I average like you do stocks. Over time when it goes high to low. Get ready to quit or be pissed when your 100 ouncer went from $5000 to $500 and you didn't sell because you wanted some insurance.
Going though random it looks like I'm going to buy the grand kids blue Waltham folders and let them rip filling them since I've seen everything the little I've done looking 49s, 55,48 the 56 is about the only one I haven't. Now for a starting collector/investor that's a hobby with a great cost to benefit ratio.... fun with little downside and a great entry point In my mind.
Felling lucky? Put your money down come one, come all🤣Come on the water fine😂👋
My .02 cents FWIW if I remember correctly 🤓
Both choices are extremely liquid which is key when you go to sell. Personally I like to purchase silver as close to spot as possible so I usually go with 90% junk.
Worth noting you should be cautious if buying 90% site unseen. Bags and rolls from dealers can be and usually are extremely worn. I like to buy in person where I am able to sort what I buy. I'll take BU 64 Kennedys over slick walkers, 60-64 quarters over dateless standing liberties etc. any day.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
lol, I noticed this. I finally bought some cheap plastic quarter and half tubes, and noted that I could get like 21 to 23 early date halves into a tube where 20-64 Kennedy's were a tight fit, and around 43 to 45 slicked up SLQ's and early Washington's in a quarter tube.
I didn't weigh 'em, but they were obviously underweight.
I really don't care what form my silver is in, though I don't consciously buy bags of 90%. It just gets added to as I come across the stuff.
From my back's point of view, ASE's are 10% lighter for the same amount of silver. Dead weight matters.
You really have to go out of your way to beat up an ASE. You can find a lot of examples, but that's only a tiny fraction of the bazillions they strike every year.
I wonder how many actually see the light of day. I buy ASE's by the tube(s), and once I get my two flawless examples for my collection, the rest is all bullion. I have tubes of ASE's that still have Philadelphia air in 'em. (Maybe San Francisco air. You never know.
)
Yep, I'm OCD with those plastic tubes. Nothing worse than a $10 quarter roll still having any amount of extra room inside, especially room for 5 more quarters. Drives me nuts.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I prefer 90% because while you are looking through the bin you could find some cool stuff last time I looked I got two 1918s and a 1947. Also you could fill a date and mm set of rosevelts and Franklins while going through a 90% bin.
Thanks I was not aware of that. I'm a collector not a stacker but can you buy AU/Unc silver for slightly more then ? Since Eagles sell at a premium maybe they are mot the better deal.
I like both. If I had to choose, then 90%.
As an investment ? Slippery slope, if you're asking me. Traditionally speaking, I prefer real money. They both have dollar denominations, so "saving" is better than investing. But collecting : that's the key to fun. And eye appeal trumps all, for me. So the more meat on the bone, plus a natural patina.... the more desireable it is, as a collectible. Although as an investment, go by the weight.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Both... although I possess more BU ASE’s.
Thanks everyone its looks like it's somewhat of a tie here too. I appreciate everyone's input
HAPPY COLLECTING
It depends, weather your investing or collecting for the History of the coin
Whatever you choose, keep ease of resell in mind.
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Some dealers / shows have junk silver boxes with worn/nicked/discolored ASE's in them, at spot +/-.
No real downside there.
Also: Location: I have found Mexico Onzas bring a premium in Texas where I live, but zilch in Connecticut where my daughter lives, so she brings them her, and I send her back with Maples, which bring a premium up north, versus nothing around here.
Canadian Maple Leafs... anti-counterfeiting features and cheaper than ASEs.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
When I was buying junk silver back when it was really unloved in the $6-$8 range I was picking up unc. quarters and halves frequently from the local coin dealer with no added premium. If that were still the case, then it would be without a doubt US silver coinage.
ASE's are so liquid and popular and although they carry a buy premium, they also have a sell premium.
Here is what I would do: I would buy some of both. I love "junk" half dollars, specifically Franklins. It would be Franklin halves and ASE's for me. ASE' store much more compactly though. You get a box of 500 and you could probably throw some old paint on the box, put some dirt and grime on it and just store it in the garage and no one would know what was inside or even care to look.
I like having both until I can't lift the box by myself. New money goes to rarity or beauty, ideally both.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
This assumes a lot of facts not in evidence. It depends on the price you have to pay and the price you get when you sell. You can buy 90% by weight. And if the Eagles are carrying a $2 or $3 premium per ounce when you buy them, you need a 10%+ move in silver just to break even.
Whatever you decide, be sure you have an "exit strategy" BEFORE you get in too deep.
And test your strategy!
For instance, do you have a local coin store that buys 90% junk silver? Or maybe a pawn shop that pays well for ASEs? Or maybe you're thinking ebay? Craigslist? Coin shows? Big online dealers? Yard sale?
You won't know the problems until you actually try to sell -- especially if you're far north of $10,000.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
USA ASE, Niue Turtle, Niue Darth Vader Coin, Niue Star Wars Trooper, Mexico Libertad, GB Britannia.
Prefer nice shiny one oz coins. Blew out 99 pct silver long ago when peaked in 2011. Prefer simplicity not having to constantly input ASW for non 1 oz coins.
I don’t go to coin shops (already have an online one) / have eBay store, setup at shows.
I have a weakness for 90% halves. Meaty Walkets and Franklins. Pretty easy to pick up at local shops when there isn’t much to buy or I have a few bucks left over after a purchase.