CoinFacts Challenge

Good evening everyone. We are acutely aware of the pain that is being inflicted over the removal of some CoinFacts images and we will address it fully in the coming days.

One quick note: Please keep it civil.

I've deleted a few very nasty things in the last few hours and I'm about to try out this new thing I've been hearing a lot of good things about lately called "sleep". Please treat this message board like it's our living room, no matter how upset we've managed to make you.

Thanks! It was a pleasure meeting so many of you this week in Orlando!

Brett Charville --- President - PCGS

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Comments

  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 511 ✭✭✭✭

    Nice to meet you at the show Brett, we’ve gotta chat more soon.

    This is my first time being on the boards this week, but numerous people have asked me if I’ve seen the update. I was sure it would be fixed, and am glad it will be.

    Goodnight, and have a good day tomorrow.

  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 511 ✭✭✭✭

    I’d like to add, that a friend of mine who attended the Luncheon told me the reasons for why you removed the “View All Imahes” option. And I must say, your reasoning behind it is dead on and great thinking. I would remove many images, but not all.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 3:27AM

    Thank you for your response.
    I look forward to seeing the reasons for it.
    Would you care to share, @ilikemonsters ?
    There is speculation on the other thread about how it might be related to resubmissions.
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1012098/a-big-reveal-at-the-pcgs-luncheon

  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 11,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 5:05AM

    Some folks are passionate about the removal of the see all images feature but I believe, as vocal as they may be, the percentage of CoinFact views that involved that aspect of the app was in the single digits. At least that was what was told to the PCGS members at the luncheon.
    Raise your hand if change makes you giddy.
    I thought so. :)
    Over

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 3,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks @BrettPCGS. Looking forward to the information on the update to Coin Facts.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can you do anything about removing the graffiti on box cars, buildings, overpasses, tunnels, coins , etc. ?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 8:08AM

    I’ve been thinking about the returning the insert to fix the pops issue. I’ve started to wonder if crack out submitters don’t want to fix the pops, and so purposely don’t send in the inserts. When you finally get a grade bump, having more coins at the next grade down means the top coins are even more rare and desirable compared to those one grade down. Am I thinking too much?

  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭

    @EastonCollection said:
    Brett - The photos allowed me to evaluate wish coins i was going to buy and whether i was going to pay a premium. For example, if i was going to purchase a 1815 quarter in AU and 2 dealers are offering 1915 quarters in that grade. I can compare those being offered to the pictures shown on Coin Facts whereas - I now don't have any place to compare whats being offered to what went thru PCGS over the years.
    Furthermore, I like to rank the top 10 in the series in the series that I collect and many times i refer to Coin Facts to compare this information and its no longer available.
    Also, when i travel to shows, i can refer to this information at coin shows to have available at shows or lot viewing. No longer available.
    Also, i was involved with putting a book on a specific series together and we needed pictures for certain examples. I guess that not having those pictures available will slow down book publishing and intro of new resources to collectors.
    Lastly, I collect coin in my series by die marriages (and die states) and I compare the die marriages and die states photos on Coin Facts for proper attributable to coins I am considering purchasing. I do have all the books but most books only show one coin and Coin Facts show examples in various grades and this information is no longer available.
    Losing all this available information will require me to find all these information elsewhere. Not a good decision by PCGS in my opinion.

    Also,, I used those photos to determine the rarities of various dime marriages and coins. For specialists, the POP info is just the beginning or research in degerming rarity but not the end game. The photos told more of the story i.e. grade availability and eye appeal availability. Again, this is a huge loss for the coin collecting community and collectors. I guess the only winners are the crack out dealers. Not good.

    Easton Collection
  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 8:38AM

    @EastonCollection said:
    Not a good decision by PCGS in my opinion.

    Yep...Swing and a miss.
    Justifications for this, raises an eyebrow.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 8:42AM

    @Zoins said:
    I’ve been thinking about the returning the insert to fix the pops issue. I’ve started to wonder if crack out submitters don’t want to fix the pops, and so purposely don’t send in the inserts. When you finally get a grade bump, having more coins at the next grade down means the top coins are even more rare and desirable compared to those one grade down. Am I thinking too much?

    My theory is it's pure laziness.

    You want fewer coins 1 grade down to show there are fewer options for cheaper alternates.

    Just ask yourself this, which 66 is rarer, and which would you be more inclined to buy?

    A coin with pop 1 at 66, pop 1 at 65, and pop 1 at 64 ...
    OR ...
    A coin with pop 1 at 66, pop 125 at 65, pop 922 at 64?

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From the title I thought this was going to be a contest, LOL... :D

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 8:59AM

    Brett is right. I think we're used to the way things were.... Now we have a PCGS staff that hears us and actually seeks out & cares about our opinions. Let's embrace that.

  • mach1nemach1ne Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 10:17AM

    Ultimately, you have one side that wants the information available to make better grading decisions and you have another side that is worried about profits (or possibly embarrassment bc of grading inconsistencies on display).
    So you have to ask yourself, which decision is being made for the benefit of most users: hiding useful information or making it readily available?

    Edited to add: How is this functionally different than when CoinFacts began to include eBay sold prices and dealers fought against it until they got a Hide eBay Prices button?

    www.MonsterCoinz.com | Luminescent Lincolns Registry Set

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  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome news!! I gotta say, the more upset we are about something, the more we have to show it, to let yall know how upset we are :D o:) So take our reactions with a grain of salt, and thanks for hopefully reverting to showing all the pictures again!

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭✭

    I’d gladly pay for the old Coinfacts. Have a Coinfacts that is free which is the product you offer presently.Have a subscription Coinfacts which was yesterday’s product. This way most people will be happy. PCGS generates revenue and dealers will be happy that most people won’t have access to every image unless they’re willing to pay for the information.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,054 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The old format paid for itself. I used it as my guide to ...COMPARATIVE...coins for purchase.
    Which..... are in PCGS slabs.

    :)

    Having placed the order and made payment, the package finally arrived and therein was the finest......

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 9:53AM

    @WingedLiberty1957 said:

    @Zoins said:
    I’ve been thinking about the returning the insert to fix the pops issue. I’ve started to wonder if crack out submitters don’t want to fix the pops, and so purposely don’t send in the inserts. When you finally get a grade bump, having more coins at the next grade down means the top coins are even more rare and desirable compared to those one grade down. Am I thinking too much?

    My theory is it's pure laziness.

    You want fewer coins 1 grade down to show there are fewer options for cheaper alternates.

    Just ask yourself this, which 66 is rarer, and which would you be more inclined to buy?

    A coin with pop 1 at 66, pop 1 at 65, and pop 1 at 64 ...
    OR ...
    A coin with pop 1 at 66, pop 125 at 65, pop 922 at 64?

    Good point. If it really does come down to just laziness. Can returning certs be made easier? There would still need to be a solution for what’s already out there.

  • KoinickerKoinicker Posts: 289 ✭✭✭

    Ummm, the previous version of CoinFacts, with all the images and the nice layout, was astronomically better than this current, dead-looking version with a trifle of images. If current PCGS staff cannot understand this then they have gone a long way backwards. CoinFacts was the primary reason why PCGS stock prices went to almost $30/share. I don't see how PCGS is benefiting itself, or the community it has created by taking all these backwards steps.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If there were resubmissions on the same coin and current owners are upset that a previously $2000 coin is now a $10000 coin with the new PCGS grade, surely the old prior grade coin could be deleted with or without the grade tab with the high quality state of the art images that Trueview provides. But it is a responsibility for dealers and serious collectors to send in the old tabs so population figures can be accurate, anything else is just lazy, evading numismatic responsibility in my opinion. With the cost of sending in grade tabs no more than a first class envelope, there is no excuse that holds water.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Didn’t Brett should say in the OP that the issue would be addressed? I think they deserve the opportunity to resolve the situation.

    I hope that PCGS sees the value in Coinfacts and seeks to make it THE portal for the hobby, expanding it beyond even its iteration.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 18,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Follow the money

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album





    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CoinFacts is a great resource. I use it all the time when evaluating new purchases. The ability to see other coins of the same grade is just outstanding.

    I understand the concern about seeing the "history" of a coin graded multiple times. Seems like there would be a way to display the majority of coins and yet have certain prior images removed.

    I'm posting this (like others) to add my 2 cents and make sure both sides of the debate are heard. Thank you.

  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 6,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The previous version of Coinfacts was a jewel that stood head and shoulders above anything else.
    In fact so good, that's what originally convinced me decide to get a membership.

    This gutted Coinfacts-Lite version...….not-so-much.

    Suddenly removing previously available information makes a nameless/faceless collector, like myself, feel handicapped and suspicious.

    I can not see this as an improvement nor who it benefits.
    I have read speculation of who may benefit from this and if true....I'm speechless.

    Thank you OP for addressing this pressing issue.

    -Mark

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My meager Washington Quarter Registry set

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 11:48AM

    I'll leave this for all the experts to sort out. More important things around here right now. The Hydrants are off to the game! GO RAMS!

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,054 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why can't "labels" be returned electronically? Like deleting a number from a showcase or registry inventory.

    Having placed the order and made payment, the package finally arrived and therein was the finest......

  • deefree49deefree49 Posts: 277 ✭✭✭

    I don't think there is much question at this point about how the community feels about the change.

    it is overwhelmingly against and honestly, there doesn't seem to be any strong argument for the new layout.

    PCGS ought to listen to their "constituents" and give the people what they want. It is simple; Bring back the old CoinFacts!

    The resubmissions are a problem and the repeating images of a coin is a problem but it is a SMALL problem. If that is the reason for the change then this is a strong example of UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. This has become a textbook case of "The Cure is Worse Than the Disease".

    A lot more unhappiness has been created by the change.

    Please...change it back.

    Lincoln coin lover, especially Matte Proofs
  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hi,
    Your title is 'CoinFacts Challenge'. Not sure what that means. Can you clarify?

    Thanks, SH


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  • robecrobec Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @deefree49 said:
    PCGS ought to listen to their "constituents" and give the people what they want. It is simple; Bring back the old CoinFacts!

    Please...change it back.

    They wouldn't need to bring back the old version. Just add the link for the "see more images" option.

    For awhile last night this option was available for foreign coins with the new CoinFacts design and it worked just like the one we lost.

  • cucamongacoincucamongacoin Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:
    Hi,
    Your title is 'CoinFacts Challenge'. Not sure what that means. Can you clarify?

    Thanks, SH

    Akin to eating Tide pods

    <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ebay.com/sch/cucamo...?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc="> MY EBAY
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 7,688 ✭✭✭✭

    I did attend the PCGS Luncheon and this was the only change I wasn't happy with. As others have said, it is good to be able to examine pictures of a lot of coins of similar grades to see how a coin you own or are considering measures up to them.

    I am very happy Brett is flexible enough to reconsider this decision, this is a very good thing.

    Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc. An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieURich said:
    I did attend the PCGS Luncheon and this was the only change I wasn't happy with. As others have said, it is good to be able to examine pictures of a lot of coins of similar grades to see how a coin you own or are considering measures up to them.

    I am very happy Brett is flexible enough to reconsider this decision, this is a very good thing.

    Did he already say that they are reconsidering?

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Civility is important. Understanding grading and its ramifications are important. And having written that means there has to be a solid and firm commitment to the belief that grading is not just subjective, but it must be an evolutionary process whereby the objective of describing the state of preservation of a coin and translating that to grade is captured to the point that a valuation can be established. Not all coins at a specific grade are created equal. However, the subjective component is about the coin, the appearance, and how it has been disturbed either through circulation or storage and the look often does not reduce to a number within a grade range. And that is a moving target and not subject weakening standards.

    Collectors like to blame TPG for a subjective component that is not absolute. Because I believe what I have written, that is part of the need for Coin Facts to retain pictures. Coins that have been graded, regardless of the number of submissions, need to have a transparent past in terms of history that may in part memorialize the decision behind the assigned grade at that time. While most collectors will complain about the Coin Facts change, the real challenge is for collectors to accept the grading is subjective and needs to be an evolutionary process. We can improve the grading process even with a subjective component.

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  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    Confucius says " If it ain't broke don't fix it "

  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 7,688 ✭✭✭✭

    @Ronyahski said:

    @RichieURich said:
    I did attend the PCGS Luncheon and this was the only change I wasn't happy with. As others have said, it is good to be able to examine pictures of a lot of coins of similar grades to see how a coin you own or are considering measures up to them.

    I am very happy Brett is flexible enough to reconsider this decision, this is a very good thing.

    Did he already say that they are reconsidering?

    His second sentence says they are aware of the pain and intend to address it. So I think that they are thinking it over.

    Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc. An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 5:02PM

    @RichieURich said:

    @Ronyahski said:

    @RichieURich said:
    I did attend the PCGS Luncheon and this was the only change I wasn't happy with. As others have said, it is good to be able to examine pictures of a lot of coins of similar grades to see how a coin you own or are considering measures up to them.

    I am very happy Brett is flexible enough to reconsider this decision, this is a very good thing.

    Did he already say that they are reconsidering?

    His second sentence says they are aware of the pain and intend to address it. So I think that they are thinking it over.

    The language used was incredibly vague and could mean almost anything from an actual fix to "we understand - sorry for your loss."

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 5:10PM

    @logger7 said:
    If those making this decision or pressuring the company to do it, first at NGC now at PCGS, how doesn't that violate PNG's code of ethics that trumpets "Integrity, Knowledge, and Responsibility? If those who made the decisions are members of PNG I would think a complaint with them would be warranted. https://pngdealers.org/code-of-ethics/

    Look at those ethics codes; the major ones are negatively affected by these changes from grading companies and their information being de-linked from individual coins. https://pngdealers.org/code-of-ethics/

    What happened at NGC? Did they have something like CoinFacts?

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS is unique in having had the best links to coins and images; NGC made it so you had to know the grade to look up an image, before that you could find all coins on an invoice with images just by knowing one of them.

  • RABRAB Posts: 43 ✭✭

    I absolutely loved being able to pull up all of the images - and used that feature all the time! Really disappointed to see that it was removed, and really hope that it returns soon!

    With respect to the multiple pics/upgrade history, I will say this: I was recently considering purchasing an MS67+ Barber dime that was newly listed in a dealer’s inventory. But seeing 11 pics of the same dime graded as MS67 prior to the coin making MS67+ turned me off as a buyer, and I decided to pass. Maybe it shouldn’t have affected my decision, but it did.

    The reality, however, it that some coins will upgrade if re-evaluated. PCGS’s reconsideration service would be pointless if that were not the case. And, as long as there are auction records, some of those upgrades will be publicly identifiable. Unlike the situation with the dime, however, I have pursued and purchased coins that had upgraded since their last auction appearance. Not being able to see that someone had to send a coin in over and over and over to get an upgrade apparently makes a difference to me ;)

    So, an effort to remove duplicate images would seem to me to go a long way towards addressing that particular issue. But I imagine that would/will be a very time consuming task, assuming that the duplicate images will have to be manually identified (and assuming the old Cert numbers are still active). However, as some have pointed out, such an exercise would also make it possible to clean up the population reports a bit!

    Bottom line, I really hope PCGS gives serious consideration to finding a way to bring back access to the photos in a manner that also addresses the concerns that prompted the change to begin with.

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