YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
Mint employees are willing to risk their careers and pensions to sneak out modern mules, errors, etc., I find it highly unlikely that no one got a 64-D out, although I have no proof. Does anyone know if QDB has unequivocally stated that he has never seen one. He is one of two living dealers that I suspect may have seen one(and I don't know many of the big guys).
FWIW, I think the main issue with the Langbord case was the provenance..I think amnesty for any newly "uncovered" that aren't associated with historical problems would bring out as many as 10 more.
There was a lot of shady and semi-shady dealing in this industry's past. Before IRS regs caught up, there were some very interesting non-provenance/fake-provenance stuff in auction sales routinely (talking 1960's and 70's). I have always been a small fish, but even I have seen some really impressive cash-only deals, with suitcases full of $100 bills. I can only imagine what the big boys have seen. Keets is correct in that a lot of the old-timey guys with the cool stories are dead.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@RogerB said:
If one reads the detailed chapter on 1964-D silver dollars (Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 3rd edition), the Denver Mint data show that tolerance in weighing planchets and coining does not support the Mint's "absolute" mintage figure. No piece count of struck coins was made, nor was a piece count made of melted coins. Further, the Denver Mint's claim that before and after melting silver weights were identical is virtually impossible unless the numbers were fudged (with nuts, too!).
We have destruction certificates for the test pieces held in Philadelphia, but only a weight of melted pieces from Denver.
Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?
I believe that they are out there but Im just speculating based off of similar situations that have occurred in the past. Whether it was LBJ, mint workers or others the odds that every single 1964-D minted was melted is highly unprobable. Just like with Switt and the 1933 double eagles, I bet other silver dollars were swapped to keep the weight of the bag(s) correct or were shared with politicians or gov't bureaucrats and that is how they were removed.
@jesbroken said:
If any were made one or some will exist. JMO
Jim
This seems to be the simple answer. For the sake of argument Let's say that one got out. Whoever has it must be chomping at the bit. They can't show it off. They can't tell anyone. There may be big money in the coin but there is no "fame".
It would probably be the same for anyone who owns it if it were to be sold under the rug. Now that the 1933 cat is out of the bag, the word is out on what anyone would face if caught with it.
It really is a sad story.
Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt? Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place? Of course, nefarious people in the know had the info.
That would seem to narrow the field a bit Notice I said "a bit". Man, the telephone lines must have been burning up with the news!
Urban Legends aside, we all know that it was "possibe" by the consensus here.
"Possible" yes.........then "Probable" being the sticking point.
Just throwing out my take on this interesting dialog.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
RE: "Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?" Yes. These exist and have been mentioned in publications now and then.
However, 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars cannot be compared, which seems to be insinuation.
The DE were regular issue coins, produced and and handled entirely according to normal procedures. They were exactly like DE of any prior year, including the 42 extras made to balance the prior year account.
1964-D dollars were trial pieces as part of operational testing. If issuance had been approved, they would have been counted and then become ordinary coins.
These distinctions might seem small, but they are extremely important in relation to preservation of specimens and how the coins and bullion were handled.
RE: "Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
Yes. Read the book. The answer is there.
RE: "Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place?" No, it was not. Only the Denver Superintendent, Mint Director, Sec of Treasury and a few others were aware of this until melting was ordered. The work took place almost immediately. Again, read the book first, then better questions can be asked.
@BillDugan1959 said:
316,000 Peace Dollars was an "Operational Test"?
The coins were in production, but somebody got to the Johnson White House and convinced them to stop.
Yes. More than 1 million 1916 Liberty dimes were made in August of that year as a test - all but a few were melted. Such tests are normal and there is rarely any public comment about them because they are a normal part of any engineering and production factory. The US Mints were/are exactly such factories.
The coins were NOT in production. However, had the trials been approved for production, then the coins already made would have been accepted and counted as part of normal coinage. In 1922 the low relief dollars went through a similar process, but those trial production coins were accepted and then rolled into normal production figures.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
Just as a side note, there is a huge international market (allegedly, I have no proof) for stolen artworks that can never be shown publicly. If stolen paintings from WWII still show up occasionally, I would think coins like these could stay hidden for a long, long time.
"Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
GEE Roger: How utterly silly of me to ask that question. Why, I have the book right next to me! I guess I SHOULD HAVE picked up the book instead of asking that here.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct about "better questions could be asked". Silly me!
I must have a die crack in my head.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@shorecoll said:
Just as a side note, there is a huge international market (allegedly, I have no proof) for stolen artworks that can never be shown publicly. If stolen paintings from WWII still show up occasionally, I would think coins like these could stay hidden for a long, long time.
A painting that was put up for auction in Connecticut was just found to be looted from a Ukraine museum in WWII. There is definitely a large black market for art. Don't get me started on modern art and money laundering....
@RogerB said: RE: "Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?" Yes. These exist and have been mentioned in publications now and then.
However, 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars cannot be compared, which seems to be insinuation.
The DE were regular issue coins, produced and and handled entirely according to normal procedures. They were exactly like DE of any prior year, including the 42 extras made to balance the prior year account.
1964-D dollars were trial pieces as part of operational testing. If issuance had been approved, they would have been counted and then become ordinary coins.
These distinctions might seem small, but they are extremely important in relation to preservation of specimens and how the coins and bullion were handled.
RE: "Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
Yes. Read the book. The answer is there.
RE: "Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place?" No, it was not. Only the Denver Superintendent, Mint Director, Sec of Treasury and a few others were aware of this until melting was ordered. The work took place almost immediately. Again, read the book first, then better questions can be asked.
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@RogerB said: RE: "Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?" Yes. These exist and have been mentioned in publications now and then.
However, 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars cannot be compared, which seems to be insinuation.
The DE were regular issue coins, produced and and handled entirely according to normal procedures. They were exactly like DE of any prior year, including the 42 extras made to balance the prior year account.
1964-D dollars were trial pieces as part of operational testing. If issuance had been approved, they would have been counted and then become ordinary coins.
These distinctions might seem small, but they are extremely important in relation to preservation of specimens and how the coins and bullion were handled.
RE: "Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
Yes. Read the book. The answer is there.
RE: "Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place?" No, it was not. Only the Denver Superintendent, Mint Director, Sec of Treasury and a few others were aware of this until melting was ordered. The work took place almost immediately. Again, read the book first, then better questions can be asked.
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
That probably would have happened if the 33's were monetized, but they never were.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
I don't think it's realistic to expect that Mint Workers in 1964 placed any sort of importance on this coin, it was only another issue. the numbers given by RogerB tell me that probably only a few workers were even involved in press operations. the speculation around someone taking one seems to center on how present day collectors and the Hobby feel about it.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
I believe there are a small number out there. Think along the lines of the 1933 $20 and the 1974 and 1974-D cents and how they slipped out and were hidden for a very long time. And if I owned one I sure wouldn't be spouting off about it.
In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
@RogerB said: RE: "Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?" Yes. These exist and have been mentioned in publications now and then.
However, 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars cannot be compared, which seems to be insinuation.
The DE were regular issue coins, produced and and handled entirely according to normal procedures. They were exactly like DE of any prior year, including the 42 extras made to balance the prior year account.
1964-D dollars were trial pieces as part of operational testing. If issuance had been approved, they would have been counted and then become ordinary coins.
These distinctions might seem small, but they are extremely important in relation to preservation of specimens and how the coins and bullion were handled.
RE: "Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
Yes. Read the book. The answer is there.
RE: "Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place?" No, it was not. Only the Denver Superintendent, Mint Director, Sec of Treasury and a few others were aware of this until melting was ordered. The work took place almost immediately. Again, read the book first, then better questions can be asked.
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
That probably would have happened if the 33's were monetized, but they never were.
Pete
The question was merely an extension of a private conversation Roger and I have been having concerning the (alleged) Mint practice of combining the last good, deliverable coins of one year with some good, deliverable coins of the next year to create a good, deliverable bag of coins, rather than waste the effort used to create the good, deliverable coins of the earlier year by melting them.
The fact that neither most of the 1932 coins nor all of the 1933 coins were actually delivered for other reasons is irrelevant to the question...Did the Mint create mixed-date bags of coins when necessary for the sake of economy?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@keets said:
I don't think it's realistic to expect that Mint Workers in 1964 placed any sort of importance on this coin, it was only another issue. the numbers given by RogerB tell me that probably only a few workers were even involved in press operations. the speculation around someone taking one seems to center on how present day collectors and the Hobby feel about it.
To turn the thought around, the possibility that nobody thought they were anything special, but merely the first of a flood of 1964-D dollars to come, could have fostered an atmosphere where some low-level supervisor authorized a sale of the coins to employees because they are no big deal, right?
You have seen the story related to me by a Mint employee that was there. No need to repeat it here.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@keets said:
I don't think it's realistic to expect that Mint Workers in 1964 placed any sort of importance on this coin, it was only another issue. the numbers given by RogerB tell me that probably only a few workers were even involved in press operations. the speculation around someone taking one seems to center on how present day collectors and the Hobby feel about it.
The first silver dollar to be minted in a generation? You work in the US mint your entire life and not a single silver dollar was minted, and then the big day finally comes and nobody within the facility wants one as a memento? Nobody talks about it?
All the crazy mules, the bizarre struck throughs, the impossible-to-be-found-in-the-wild septuple-struck shotglass Lincoln cents, the 1913 v-nickels, the gold planchet Indian cents and nobody at the mint would risk a buck to get the first silver dollar struck in decades?
I'd believe dozens were smuggled out of the mint before I'd believe none were.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@nags said:
Wouldn't authentication be potentially impossible at this point anyway? It's not like you can compare a new coin with known examples.
IMHO, any experienced professional authenticator and any knowledgeable numismatist or dealer could instantly authenticate one of these coins as genuine from a foot away. That's authentication slang for NO Problem!
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@keets said:
Weiss, you're still thinking like a Modern Day collector.
I don't collect modern coins but I know human nature. I remember when first issued the 1964 Kennedy halves were like "gold."
Stealing is not in my nature but any chance to get something unusual at the mint and I'm in! I'm not alone. You would think that Mint engravers are jaded. Not so, they have so much cool stuff on and in their desks that Mr. Gasparro eventually had to drag me out of the room so they could resume working. As a much older man, at one "gathering of the faithful" at Lime Rock. I picked two used Porsche 917 break discs out of a trash barrel in the pits that made a wonderful and impossible present for my best friend. If it is legal and neat, don't stand between me and anything.
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
That probably would have happened if the 33's were monetized, but they never were.
Pete
No. The Coiner had already reported the 1932 total, but was actually short 42 DE at settlement on June 30, 1932. They were made during the initial press run using gold earmarked for 1932 DE that had resulted in defective 1932 coins. The replacement coins were made and then put aside -- possibly mixed with the leftover 1932 assay coins or part of the Cashier's cash vault. All of these were isolated by the end of April and were probably destroyed with the rest of the Cashier's gold holdings in 1935. (This comes direct from a signed document by the Coiner, William Bartholomew. It was presented at trial in 2011.)
PS: Nothing was "monetized." That is pure falsehood. Bullion became coin when the Coiner said so; he could also make coin into bullion, if he wanted.
@nags said:
Wouldn't authentication be potentially impossible at this point anyway? It's not like you can compare a new coin with known examples.
No. Authentication is possible using characteristics identified by the Mint Technology office and additional ones from my research. These will only be discussed as part of a legitimate examination. None of the photos circulated, reproductions, or counterfeits are close to hitting any of the criteria.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
PS: I hope one or more eventually show up, are properly authenticated, allowed to enter the normal numismatic market, and that at least one is donated to the Smithsonian.
These are important pieces of American economic and political history - something we should strive to preserve and understand, rather than ignore or claim "illegality."
Roger, past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935, why do you think they are historically important?? 1943 Steel Lincoln Cents are historically important, why these Dollars.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
Perhaps Mr. Keets has answered his own question and that is good enough reason for me!
"...past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935,..."
I'll also add the mystery and circumstances of their issue/non-issue as discussed in this thread.
I am 100% positive that at least one coin is somewhere. Imagine six of the most influential dealers and collectors sitting on the edge of two beds in the Rosen Center passing a 1964-D Peace dollar (in a custom Capital holder) between them in a darkened room with only the bedside light on.
All I want is a high-quality photograph of the thing to examine. Also, a couple of good photos of the edge reeding to compare with older Peace dollars and Ike dollars. That would be pretty easy to produce without any risk of forfeiture or discovery.
If I owned one, none of you would hear about it from me, especially now with the Langbord issue. Despite the almost universal propensity of people to brag about something cool, there are a surprising number of people who value and practice enormous discretion.
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
That probably would have happened if the 33's were monetized, but they never were.
Pete
No. The Coiner had already reported the 1932 total, but was actually short 42 DE at settlement on June 30, 1932. They were made during the initial press run using gold earmarked for 1932 DE that had resulted in defective 1932 coins. The replacement coins were made and then put aside -- possibly mixed with the leftover 1932 assay coins or part of the Cashier's cash vault. All of these were isolated by the end of April and were probably destroyed with the rest of the Cashier's gold holdings in 1935. (This comes direct from a signed document by the Coiner, William Bartholomew. It was presented at trial in 2011.)
PS: Nothing was "monetized." That is pure falsehood. Bullion became coin when the Coiner said so; he could also make coin into bullion, if he wanted.
Thanks Roger. I understand.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
Someone living in Philadelphia should request 2 Custom Capital holders be made with "1964-D Peace Dollar" in gold. Then have them mailed to a newly opened POB. All transactions (box and holder) paid with cash.
Keets -
RE: "Roger, past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935, why do you think they are historically important?? 1943 Steel Lincoln Cents are historically important, why these Dollars."
As is clear from reading the 1964 dollar chapter in the Peace Dollar Guide Book, the concept of 'silver dollars' and the specific coins were part of the economic and political events leading to the change to base metal coins and eventual removal of direct metallic backing for paper currency. Various economic and practical discussions took place inside Treasury, and the White House and Congress were involved in political considerations of silver coinage. By examining the dollar legislation/authorization by President Kennedy, his elimination of subsidized sale of silver from the national stockpile, and Congressional arguments on the amount of silver to use in coins, we see the inner workings of events usually evident only in newspaper headlines.
Your comment about 1943 zinc-coated steel cents is good and that situation can help better illustrate the necessities of war-time economy and attempts to secure a usable substitute for copper....even thought copper was not as much a "necessity" as initially feared. If you read my book on WW-II Pattern and Experimental Pieces, you will, I hope, see what I mean.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@ranshdow said: "So what would happen to the D Carr pieces if a genuine 1964-D Peace shows up?"
With the publicity and the fact that some non-numismatists would want Mr. Carr jailed, the prices for his pieces should increase even higher than they are now. I'm glad I bought one!
Roger, since other Nations had long since changed from Silver to CuNi or other compositions for coinage, why was the US slow to the party and decision more important?? it seems like with regard to this issue we followed when we should have led.
Does it really matter if there are any real ones or not? There are plenty of very beautiful fake ones available that look and feel counterfeit but apparently are not counterfeit, yet are not real either. It's an interesting situation.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
So who is going to be the numismatist that testifies on behalf of treasury leading to the destruction of a real 64-D?
I mean...They all look like Carr coins to me [wink-wink]
@ReadyFireAim said:
So who is going to be the numismatist that testifies on behalf of treasury leading to the destruction of a real 64-D?
I mean...They all look like Carr coins to me [wink-wink]
I doubt the Treasury would destroy such a coin. Did they destroy any of the recently confiscated 1933 Saints? They would most likely lend it to the Smithsonian Institute for display.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
Let me clarify- would the D. Carr 1964-D Peaces 'transition' from being fantasy pieces to counterfeits? Or are they already counterfeits? What's the level of proof required for such a distinction?
YES..........but we'll probably never know for sure.
@ranshdow said:
Let me clarify- would the D. Carr 1964-D Peaces 'transition' from being fantasy pieces to counterfeits? Or are they already counterfeits? What's the level of proof required for such a distinction?
I think they would still qualify as fantasy over-strikes. Besides, no 1964-D $1 is going to surface in our lifetime w/o some type of amnesty deal so its owner can profit.
If I owned one...Self EDIT. Anyone who possesses one of these should turn it over to the government.
Comments
Mint employees are willing to risk their careers and pensions to sneak out modern mules, errors, etc., I find it highly unlikely that no one got a 64-D out, although I have no proof. Does anyone know if QDB has unequivocally stated that he has never seen one. He is one of two living dealers that I suspect may have seen one(and I don't know many of the big guys).
FWIW, I think the main issue with the Langbord case was the provenance..I think amnesty for any newly "uncovered" that aren't associated with historical problems would bring out as many as 10 more.
There was a lot of shady and semi-shady dealing in this industry's past. Before IRS regs caught up, there were some very interesting non-provenance/fake-provenance stuff in auction sales routinely (talking 1960's and 70's). I have always been a small fish, but even I have seen some really impressive cash-only deals, with suitcases full of $100 bills. I can only imagine what the big boys have seen. Keets is correct in that a lot of the old-timey guys with the cool stories are dead.
Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?
I believe that they are out there but Im just speculating based off of similar situations that have occurred in the past. Whether it was LBJ, mint workers or others the odds that every single 1964-D minted was melted is highly unprobable. Just like with Switt and the 1933 double eagles, I bet other silver dollars were swapped to keep the weight of the bag(s) correct or were shared with politicians or gov't bureaucrats and that is how they were removed.
If any were made one or some will exist. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Yes I know a very believable person that said Aurhur Bebe showed him one a long time ago.
This seems to be the simple answer. For the sake of argument Let's say that one got out. Whoever has it must be chomping at the bit. They can't show it off. They can't tell anyone. There may be big money in the coin but there is no "fame".
It would probably be the same for anyone who owns it if it were to be sold under the rug. Now that the 1933 cat is out of the bag, the word is out on what anyone would face if caught with it.
It really is a sad story.
Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt? Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place? Of course, nefarious people in the know had the info.
That would seem to narrow the field a bit Notice I said "a bit". Man, the telephone lines must have been burning up with the news!
Urban Legends aside, we all know that it was "possibe" by the consensus here.
"Possible" yes.........then "Probable" being the sticking point.
Just throwing out my take on this interesting dialog.
Pete
RE: "Don't we also have the destruction certificates for the 1933 Double eagles as well?"
Yes. These exist and have been mentioned in publications now and then.
However, 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars cannot be compared, which seems to be insinuation.
The DE were regular issue coins, produced and and handled entirely according to normal procedures. They were exactly like DE of any prior year, including the 42 extras made to balance the prior year account.
1964-D dollars were trial pieces as part of operational testing. If issuance had been approved, they would have been counted and then become ordinary coins.
These distinctions might seem small, but they are extremely important in relation to preservation of specimens and how the coins and bullion were handled.
RE: "Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
Yes. Read the book. The answer is there.
RE: "Was it common knowledge that the destruction would take place?"
No, it was not. Only the Denver Superintendent, Mint Director, Sec of Treasury and a few others were aware of this until melting was ordered. The work took place almost immediately. Again, read the book first, then better questions can be asked.
316,000 Peace Dollars was an "Operational Test"?
The coins were in production, but somebody got to the Johnson White House and convinced them to stop.
Yes. More than 1 million 1916 Liberty dimes were made in August of that year as a test - all but a few were melted. Such tests are normal and there is rarely any public comment about them because they are a normal part of any engineering and production factory. The US Mints were/are exactly such factories.
The coins were NOT in production. However, had the trials been approved for production, then the coins already made would have been accepted and counted as part of normal coinage. In 1922 the low relief dollars went through a similar process, but those trial production coins were accepted and then rolled into normal production figures.
Again -- go read the book!
I've ordered the book, actually, but it hasn't shown up yet.
I am not seeing how a run of 300+ thousand is a trial. Please, that does not make any sense. Those are production type numbers.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Just as a side note, there is a huge international market (allegedly, I have no proof) for stolen artworks that can never be shown publicly. If stolen paintings from WWII still show up occasionally, I would think coins like these could stay hidden for a long, long time.
"Does anyone know how much time between the initial minting of the 64-D and it's eventual order to melt?"
GEE Roger: How utterly silly of me to ask that question. Why, I have the book right next to me! I guess I SHOULD HAVE picked up the book instead of asking that here.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct about "better questions could be asked". Silly me!
I must have a die crack in my head.
Pete
From our host's (PCGS) Library:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/1964-d-peace-dollars-do-they-really-exist
A painting that was put up for auction in Connecticut was just found to be looted from a Ukraine museum in WWII. There is definitely a large black market for art. Don't get me started on modern art and money laundering....
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/24/us/stolen-painting-ukraine/index.html
Would those 42 1933 Double Eagles used to replace 42 defective 1932 Double Eagles have been placed within a bag of mostly 1932 Double Eagles to make it one solid bag ready for release?
That probably would have happened if the 33's were monetized, but they never were.
Pete
I don't think it's realistic to expect that Mint Workers in 1964 placed any sort of importance on this coin, it was only another issue. the numbers given by RogerB tell me that probably only a few workers were even involved in press operations. the speculation around someone taking one seems to center on how present day collectors and the Hobby feel about it.
Excellent article, Bill.
Pete
I believe there are a small number out there. Think along the lines of the 1933 $20 and the 1974 and 1974-D cents and how they slipped out and were hidden for a very long time. And if I owned one I sure wouldn't be spouting off about it.
The question was merely an extension of a private conversation Roger and I have been having concerning the (alleged) Mint practice of combining the last good, deliverable coins of one year with some good, deliverable coins of the next year to create a good, deliverable bag of coins, rather than waste the effort used to create the good, deliverable coins of the earlier year by melting them.
The fact that neither most of the 1932 coins nor all of the 1933 coins were actually delivered for other reasons is irrelevant to the question...Did the Mint create mixed-date bags of coins when necessary for the sake of economy?
TD
To turn the thought around, the possibility that nobody thought they were anything special, but merely the first of a flood of 1964-D dollars to come, could have fostered an atmosphere where some low-level supervisor authorized a sale of the coins to employees because they are no big deal, right?
You have seen the story related to me by a Mint employee that was there. No need to repeat it here.
TD
Tom and Al................................you guys present a whole lot of good scenarios to ponder.
Kudos to both of you, and everybody else here with your comments and ideas.
Pete
The first silver dollar to be minted in a generation? You work in the US mint your entire life and not a single silver dollar was minted, and then the big day finally comes and nobody within the facility wants one as a memento? Nobody talks about it?
All the crazy mules, the bizarre struck throughs, the impossible-to-be-found-in-the-wild septuple-struck shotglass Lincoln cents, the 1913 v-nickels, the gold planchet Indian cents and nobody at the mint would risk a buck to get the first silver dollar struck in decades?
I'd believe dozens were smuggled out of the mint before I'd believe none were.
--Severian the Lame
Wouldn't authentication be potentially impossible at this point anyway? It's not like you can compare a new coin with known examples.
I had read some years ago that LBJ was a keen numismatist. Considering his propensity for lies and deception, I would not doubt that for one instant.
Cheers
Bob
If one or more authentic 1964-D Peace Dollar do exist they have been stolen by someone making them subject to confiscation by the government.
There is no doubt whatsoever that any 1964-D dollars that do exist are, and always have been, US government property.
There is no comparison to be made here to the 1933 Double Eagle story.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
IMHO, any experienced professional authenticator and any knowledgeable numismatist or dealer could instantly authenticate one of these coins as genuine from a foot away. That's authentication slang for NO Problem!
Weiss, you're still thinking like a Modern Day collector.
I don't collect modern coins but I know human nature. I remember when first issued the 1964 Kennedy halves were like "gold."
in the pits that made a wonderful and impossible present for my best friend. If it is legal and neat, don't stand between me and anything.
Stealing is not in my nature but any chance to get something unusual at the mint and I'm in! I'm not alone. You would think that Mint engravers are jaded. Not so, they have so much cool stuff on and in their desks that Mr. Gasparro eventually had to drag me out of the room so they could resume working. As a much older man, at one "gathering of the faithful" at Lime Rock. I picked two used Porsche 917 break discs out of a trash barrel
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
No. The Coiner had already reported the 1932 total, but was actually short 42 DE at settlement on June 30, 1932. They were made during the initial press run using gold earmarked for 1932 DE that had resulted in defective 1932 coins. The replacement coins were made and then put aside -- possibly mixed with the leftover 1932 assay coins or part of the Cashier's cash vault. All of these were isolated by the end of April and were probably destroyed with the rest of the Cashier's gold holdings in 1935. (This comes direct from a signed document by the Coiner, William Bartholomew. It was presented at trial in 2011.)
PS: Nothing was "monetized." That is pure falsehood. Bullion became coin when the Coiner said so; he could also make coin into bullion, if he wanted.
No. Authentication is possible using characteristics identified by the Mint Technology office and additional ones from my research. These will only be discussed as part of a legitimate examination. None of the photos circulated, reproductions, or counterfeits are close to hitting any of the criteria.
For those who are not familiar with my story regarding the 1964-D Peace Dollars, please see P. 3 of this thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/886005/letter-from-dan-brown-concerning-denver-mint-sales-of-1964-d-peace-dollars/p1
PS: I hope one or more eventually show up, are properly authenticated, allowed to enter the normal numismatic market, and that at least one is donated to the Smithsonian.
These are important pieces of American economic and political history - something we should strive to preserve and understand, rather than ignore or claim "illegality."
Roger, past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935, why do you think they are historically important?? 1943 Steel Lincoln Cents are historically important, why these Dollars.
I don't know about that.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Perhaps Mr. Keets has answered his own question and that is good enough reason for me!
"...past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935,..."
I'll also add the mystery and circumstances of their issue/non-issue as discussed in this thread.
I am 100% positive that at least one coin is somewhere.
Imagine six of the most influential dealers and collectors sitting on the edge of two beds in the Rosen Center passing a 1964-D Peace dollar (in a custom Capital holder) between them in a darkened room with only the bedside light on. 
All I want is a high-quality photograph of the thing to examine. Also, a couple of good photos of the edge reeding to compare with older Peace dollars and Ike dollars. That would be pretty easy to produce without any risk of forfeiture or discovery.
If I owned one, none of you would hear about it from me, especially now with the Langbord issue. Despite the almost universal propensity of people to brag about something cool, there are a surprising number of people who value and practice enormous discretion.
Thanks Roger. I understand.
Pete
Someone living in Philadelphia should request 2 Custom Capital holders be made with "1964-D Peace Dollar" in gold. Then have them mailed to a newly opened POB. All transactions (box and holder) paid with cash.
So what would happen to the D Carr pieces if a genuine 1964-D Peace shows up?
They become more valuable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Keets -
RE: "Roger, past there fascination as the first Silver Dollar struck in the US since 1935, why do you think they are historically important?? 1943 Steel Lincoln Cents are historically important, why these Dollars."
As is clear from reading the 1964 dollar chapter in the Peace Dollar Guide Book, the concept of 'silver dollars' and the specific coins were part of the economic and political events leading to the change to base metal coins and eventual removal of direct metallic backing for paper currency. Various economic and practical discussions took place inside Treasury, and the White House and Congress were involved in political considerations of silver coinage. By examining the dollar legislation/authorization by President Kennedy, his elimination of subsidized sale of silver from the national stockpile, and Congressional arguments on the amount of silver to use in coins, we see the inner workings of events usually evident only in newspaper headlines.
Your comment about 1943 zinc-coated steel cents is good and that situation can help better illustrate the necessities of war-time economy and attempts to secure a usable substitute for copper....even thought copper was not as much a "necessity" as initially feared. If you read my book on WW-II Pattern and Experimental Pieces, you will, I hope, see what I mean.
@ranshdow said: "So what would happen to the D Carr pieces if a genuine 1964-D Peace shows up?"
With the publicity and the fact that some non-numismatists would want Mr. Carr jailed, the prices for his pieces should increase even higher than they are now. I'm glad I bought one!
Roger, since other Nations had long since changed from Silver to CuNi or other compositions for coinage, why was the US slow to the party and decision more important?? it seems like with regard to this issue we followed when we should have led.
Does it really matter if there are any real ones or not? There are plenty of very beautiful fake ones available that look and feel counterfeit but apparently are not counterfeit, yet are not real either. It's an interesting situation.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So who is going to be the numismatist that testifies on behalf of treasury leading to the destruction of a real 64-D?
[wink-wink]
I mean...They all look like Carr coins to me
My Saint Set
I doubt the Treasury would destroy such a coin. Did they destroy any of the recently confiscated 1933 Saints? They would most likely lend it to the Smithsonian Institute for display.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Let me clarify- would the D. Carr 1964-D Peaces 'transition' from being fantasy pieces to counterfeits? Or are they already counterfeits? What's the level of proof required for such a distinction?
I think they would still qualify as fantasy over-strikes. Besides, no 1964-D $1 is going to surface in our lifetime w/o some type of amnesty deal so its owner can profit.
If I owned one...Self EDIT. Anyone who possesses one of these should turn it over to the government.