Premium Quality NGC coins not crossing
Kenneth1830
Posts: 44 ✭✭
Just curious how many of you have attempted to cross truly PQ NGC coins that you thought had a great chance, but were denied?
Let's take it a step further and add CAC approval as well.
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If it didn't cross, has anyone cracked it out and resubmited raw and, if so, what was the result?
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I crossed two NGC slabbed commemoratives a couple of years ago during one of the PCGS crossover specials. Haven't tried lately.
Oh boy do I. Inexpensive NGC coins cross, but expensive even super PQ CAC'd NGC coins not crossing for me recently.
I sent over a batch to PCGS and all coins either graded lower or would not cross at any grade. Heritage has had a whole boatload of beautiful NGC coins of late (at least in the Seated and Barber half series). I cannot believe how nice many are for the grade.
No more crossovers for me. I retired my PCGS set and now I just buy coins, not plastic. I still love PCGS graded coins, but the holdering game is over for me.
I think for the truly nice NGC CAC graded coins that I felt should cross more the most part, did. Keep in mind it always depends on the coin, and the coin is what made me buy a NGC CAC coin - even though I prefer PCGS CAC. I did cross a Proof Twenty Liberty from a NGC PF67+UCAM to a PCGS PR67+DCAM CAC earlier this year, among other things.
I dont do the whole crossover game.
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I wholeheartedly agree. I'm done, too. I just want nice certified coins....I don't care about the plastic.
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dont cross or conserve, just a money grab for now. i dont think appropriate effort is given
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It is hard to comment without seeing the coins in question. Undoubtedly there are some pieces that should cross but don't; however, a lot of coins that seem PQ might have issues that are overlooked and might be silently netgraded for something that many collectors may miss.
Unless coin needs crack out / dip I see no need spend money crossing my ngc material plus ngc has its own following. I use CDN bid plus markup in most instances and CAC bid in CDN if CAC. The relative TPG MV also noted in retail code on Holder. Irregardless I mark CAC coins up higher just like I would a high end car where chrome wheels (rims) replace the stock wheels like at a mod shop in gtao.
I can c where somebody would want cross ngc coin if relative CDN (BS) bid value gives incentive for this like some ultra high grade MS67 issue.
Rare Coins are unique, subject to the bias of the owner / seller and you can’t make generalizations on this issue. Plus any submission is a point in time / most likely different graded.
IMO, it comes down to the coin itself.
Once I worked for PCI in TN (no longer around so I think I can mention them here). When we crossed or raised the grade of a coin from another service we put EX: TPGS and the # on the label. It made our grade slab more "official." Back then, 3c and 5c nickel coins would even go up a grade as IMO they were being graded too tightly by the "Big 2." Some coins from different services did not cross. Many coins we "problem" graded were crossed and straight graded by other services. So, it all depends on the coin and the company standards, Same as the case now.
Some things to consider:
If a rare, desirable, famous coin in a service A slab goes to service B it will probably cross and in some cases, they have upgraded.
I was talking to a customer this morning (house call...LOL) who explained that in cases where a coin was common and not very valuable, he's had success with crossovers at the Big 2; yet he was told that a few that didn't cross would make them too expensive!
IMO, you will need a very PQ coin to get it crossed by a top TPGS from a lower tier TPGS.
I bought this 1845-D $2.5 as a NGC 55 quite some time ago. I sent it to our host unsuccessfully 6 months ago to cross at the same grade or higher. Sent it to CAC and it failed. Sent the coin back to PCGS to cross at any grade and it came back as a 53. Sent the coin back to CAC again and it was awarded a green bean.
It has been a very long time since I played that game, but usually when a coin failed to cross, I missed something.
I love that 45-D QE @skier07 !
If grading is objective and consistent, then the name on holder 'A' is irrelevant. Consistent, stable "grading" means that coins can be compared only to the standard. If the standard is met, then the grade controlled by that standard applies.
Are some posters suggesting that a label bias is in play when trying to move a coin from one company's holder to another company's holder?
I sent a 95-O dime in a Ngc 53 holder to CAC. Wouldn’t CAC Sent it to PCGS to cross. It upgraded to a 55. Then back to CAC where it passed. Go figure
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You mean to tell me that people still look at the coin and not the labels and stickers these days.
It all a ridiculous game. I just had a super fresh rare and "no brianer" CAC graded gold coin not cross. Sent in the next week-BOOM! Crossed.
I really hope the new Prez and tame this and bring consistency.
What can he do? (Serious question)
Would more graders help? Paying bonuses to rehire lateral transfers that now live at NGC or other services?
No stupid "approval" dumps would be a good first step.
Actually, it would be a good step first or not.
I have a plausible answer to the OP, but it would prob get me banned...
Wow need another drink.
On the 45-D $2.50 that is a huge hit $4800 NGC 55 (ngc pg) to $4250 PCGS PG AU 53, a $550 MV loss as the crow flies.
Interesting post thanks for sharing.
I agree, and in the interest of expanding the conversation: Would you agree that the consensus so far is that this is a $4525 $2.50? If not, what value would you place on it?
I think a more accurate market comparison would be between a non CAC NGC 55 and a CAC PCGS 53.
There is no loss or gain. The coin remains exactly the same and the label is only a paid opinion. Buyer and seller exchange a coin; packaging is merely incidental to protecting the coin from damage.
Certainly the above is heretical in the present "hobby" of coin collecting. Rather than watch for Santa tonight, I should be looking for a mob of collectors carrying flaming branches preparing an auto-de-fé on my front yard.
Serious answer: Company meeting with the graders and finalizers plus their review of posted PCGS grading standard images which I often consult myself. Professional graders should be constantly monitored as their opinions are recorded in the computer. There was a time in the past, that I have been told to loosen up. Now, I've been told to be myself and continue as I have been doing for my entire career. It's much easier to grade a coin for what it actually is than to try to put a value on it - much of the time with your naked eyes.
Besides, while grading among professional graders using a company standard can fluctuate a little the finalizer is supposed to make sure any deviation is smaller because HE is the one who puts the actual grade on the coin everywhere I've worked.
Furthermore, IF what many of you think - that TPGS's want you to send a coin back several times to get its grade either correct or "maxed out" is true (I may be the only naive one around here - LOL) then the new guy can put a stop to that.
That is a really nice looking, high end Dahlonega Mint coin for an AU-53. It looks like an AU-55 to me, but I suppose pictures can be deceiving.
That's a shame!
However, there are rules and we are just guests.
@specialist said: "I really hope the new Prez and tame this and bring consistency.
There can NEVER, EVER be any consistency (precision) with the way coin grading is practiced at this time.
To me it’s the coin and not the holder.
I am done with the registry game. I spent a lot of time ATS with photos of every coin and historical and collectors’ advice for every piece. I did win “best presented” a couple of times, but now the handwriting is on the wall. All of the grandfathered PCGS graded coins now have zero registry points although the overall point totals have not changed. Look for the PCGS graded coins to count for zero in the near future therefore dropping my sets off the ranking charts to somewhere in the middle. Few people will look at my sets after that.
Instead of getting me to buy more NGC graded coins, their policies have led me to do just the opposite.
After all, how you personally feel about your sets is most important. Don't you agree?
I wonder if there was ever a crossover submission in an non-edge view NGC holder that was cleared to cross, then when taken out of the holder there was something that couldn't be seen and was a problem?
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I think this is less a problem than it was decades ago.
Pre "details" holders, there were some beautiful coins with cut or filed rims found in slabs (at least by me) because the damage could not be seen. If the coin were ever cracked out - that became the owner's problem.
It certainly is a nice coin with high demand. I am not stuck in concrete as to value just comparing facts as to TPG value.
It will sell or realize what can be negotiated with the buyer or realize at auction. CF shows an auction realized range of approximately $3100-$3800 so I expect any offer or bid wb in this range if liquidating. For retail the TPG price of $4250 or say $4500 wb a starting point depending on demand / market conditions. A millionaire would take at $4500 or even higher rather than haggle over what is chump change to him (I certainly would) it’s a really nice coin. At any show it most likely wb only one of this issue in the room. That it’s cac should go 20 pct above The $4250 or more - you have JA going to bat for you. Who knows perhaps $5k or more?
I think you are ignoring the original skin this coin has. That's the problem with coinfacts. I would wager the ratio is at a minimum 10-1 dipped vrs./original skin within the graded Dahlonega coins. I also think that coin will sell itself and bring 55+ money if auctioned!
CPG for AU 53 is $3500 for 1845-D $2.50 Pcgs AU 53. In AU 55 this is a $4250 coin (CPG).
Now the jury is in.
It may get close to $4000 w CAC in a retail transaction.
CDN bid for AU50 is $2400. I would estimate $2800 for AU 53 as a likely bid / offer if shopping around bourse. Could be slightly higher if buyer has slam dunk customer for it.
Allow graders to specialize???
I can't imagine being good at everything that comes through the door.
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You mean something like this?
https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/topic/219014-the-problem-with-ngc-prong-holders-ngc-reply-posted/
I've long thought the same thing. It works for doctors. It would produce more consistency.
I would never take a downgrade (especially if huge hit in MV) on coin I submitted in its original slab especially on a big ticket coin which was just fine in its NGC holder (not needing dip, conservation). I can see where many want cross an NGC high value MS coin to PCGS where Bluesheet bid much higher than NGC bid but for me would back out from cracking gambling on downgrade. I realize there are those who are registry hobbyists and want everything in PCGS Holder (most of mine are too) in that case I defer to them, it’s their money (hobby) on the table.
The exception wb material cracked out like old rattlers I cracked to see if get upgrade. 2 MS 63 rattlers cracked one went 63 the other 65 (very delighted on this one). If u play that game on the Bay look at coin carefully the bad pics there for a reason. Another sector (exception) was some ICG material that justified the slabbing cost / cross to PCGS (marketability). This was material I did not have more than $75 in per coin. A number of them downgraded.
Only coins I’ve crossed are shield varieties. All my other stuff I buy PCGS only.
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Sometimes a PCGS coin one point lower is worth more than a NGC coin a point higher. I would never say never. For me it all comes down to money.
Agree and that is certainly the case for most (if not all) copper series.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Good thread
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All the time I have PQ CAC coins not cross. I just send them in again. Its part of the game. Just did that in a $75,000.00 gold piece. I am too used to it to be mad.
PCGS wants all better coins in their holders.
On average, how many times do the stubborn pieces take?
Laura,
It took you many years to not get mad...lol
Many years ago I had this happen:
PF 64 BN