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Question about Saints
olympicsos
Posts: 700 ✭✭✭✭
I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a common date Saint or two in MS condition. But I have been hearing that many Saints graded MS are actually AU coins in MS holders and are not strictly uncirculated and many have rub on the left knee which if strictly graded can knock the coin down to AU. Is it best to purchase MS65 or higher CAC Saints to ensure that the Saint I'd get is more strictly uncirculated than an MS60 to MS64 Saint? Aside from proofs and the 2009 UHR, are there much of any strictly uncirculated Saints out there? Please share any tips you all may have.
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If you explain why (investment, bullion play, numismatic spread, etc.) you are interested in MS Saints, people responding can tailor an appropriate answer.
I am interested as a collector. If I am spending money on a big ticket coin, I want to make sure it is done right.
If you are buying a common, you would probably be best off buying an MS64. Prices have contracted so much the different between an AU and an MS64 is negligible. They are glorified bullion. In terms of that, buy one that catches your eye because in the end, CAC doesn't matter much because it is a widget to the highest degree. If you are buying an MS65 or higher, all bets are off and I will leave it to those who know that market better. There are plenty of accurately graded product out there. Another more fun option would be buying one of the more common dates with a lower mintage. That means avoiding a 08 NM, a 24, 27 or 28. You could find one of the other dates for little to no premium in MS63 and you are getting a somewhat rarer coin.
Stay away from Saints unless you can get them for close to bullion. They are common, common, common.
I was thinking of maybe getting one really nice MS 66 CAC or two MS 64 or MS 65 non CAC. But I am not sure yet. I am not planning on building a set of Saints, just want one or a few (eventually) since it is one of the best designs of US coins out there. Eventually I want to have a few nice type coins of each of the early 20th century classic designs.
Collecting Saints is great. Please disregard anyone telling you anything different. I have seen many, many collections put together and then sold, and can tell you first hand, I have never seen someone who has put together a nice set of Saints be disappointed.
I see Saints traded on the floor for bullion today, so I am not sure what that other comment means.
"Common, common, common" is kind of overkill for any nice Saint, i.e. CAC certified. Someone is not really looking at the CAC pops. Not to mention if you counted the total numbers by denom (sans a few of the discontinued mistakes) you will see that the $20's, by proportion, are rarer than just about any other denomination. What you may be experiencing is the glut of JUNK that inevitable is part of any large "haul." Do not confuse the generic widgets (beaten, dipped, cleaned etc. MS 62, MS63 and MS64s) with true collectible (pop, conditional or otherwise, under 400 pieces).
No one should discourage you, we should be enabling you through advice on how to do it correctly. You are right to want to collect these beautiful coins, and you should buy the most expensive one you can afford with a CAC sticker on it. You will never be sorry.
Totally agree! I think CAC stickers are actually distracting. Your eyes can tell distinctions between strong and weak coins within a particular grade. I'm not an investor but a collector happy adding Saints every now and then to my collection.
My advice is look for strong strikes without bag marks, which despite the grade, I find too distracting.
Stay away from the more common dates which essentially just trade as bullion.
Keep in mind mintage only states how many were made. With all that were melted, I recommend looking to PCGS tables to see relative scarcity within particular grades.
If you find it really difficult to walk away from the dealer's table, return a couple times to look at the coin, or find yourself entranced with its beauty that's generally a good sign that you should buy the coin.
Personally, I would go for around MS63 for as close to spot as you can get. Collectible coins, for a large part, have not been a great investment lately, so I would hate to get buried in a nice high grade coin, when you can get several almost as nice MS63 for close to melt. I've been slowly stacking MS63 grade quality, and I love them!
I got a nice 64 graded Saint a few months ago for my type set and I LOVE it!
My YouTube Channel
If CAC does not matter, how do you explain the difference in realized auction prices? Even for the Widgets. Looking forward to the education.
When I was in graduate school I remember I had a upperclassman tell me all I had to do in a certain class was X, Y and Z. Later I found out that he was right---if I just wanted to pass the class. Much more was involved if I wanted to get an A. Reading some of the advice on this thread made me think of that story. Everyone has different goals and therefore you will get a lot of different advice that appears to be contradictory.
To be 66 CAC the luster and strike need to be there, but these other factors might be at play to a greater or lesser extent with any given coin:
I've seen at least one CAC-approved MS66 that had high-point friction.
I'm going to be Mr. Unpopular-Opinion here and say find a nice raw one that you can see in-hand before purchasing that you are happy with.
Collector, occasional seller
Unless he is an expert authenticator or an expert grader he should stick with coins slabbed by the top grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The coins are nice for the grade?!?
I think that the carefully selected MS-64 Saints are the best coins for the money, if you are into that sort of thing. If you are looking to making money, you basically betting on bullion when you buy common and slightly less than common Saints.
As for the CAC approved ones, I bought an MS-65 CAC common date some years ago. I’m buried in it now and won’t see the light of day unless bullion makes a big run.
I prefer PCGS graded MS-65 non CAC !!!
Look at 23-D's they can be found with amazing eye appeal. Eye appeal is most important.
buy the coin, not the cac. Remember you are buying a piece of historic gold, not a silly little sticker. Be patient and good luck.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
keep in mind that is what JA is doing--he is looking at the coin and giving his opinion when he stickers it. If you value someone like JA's opinion, the sticker is of value. Sometimes people seem to suggest there is no correlation between the CAC sticker and the quality of the coin. Look at alot of CaC stickered gold---in most circumstances you can see a difference between it and non stickered gold
Best advice of all. There are plenty of Saints, so take your time, look at as many of them as you can, and then go from there!
Are you saying that you don't want to pay an addition CAC tax of 20% for your coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@Timbuk3 said:
Strongly agree.
They look nice enough, condition wise, without the huge price jump & don't have the CAC tax.
The difference between a nice clean 65+ (in a 65 holder) and a 66+ (with + on the holder) is VERY small.
Huge jumps between 63-64 & 65
Here is my set.
I'll have a look at Apmex and make a suggestion.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-date-set-circulation-strikes-1907-1932/publishedset/170023
My Saint Set
As others have mentioned, the prices for ms63-ms64 are at melt-+100.
Since there are tens of thousands around to choose from, go to a show and take your pick of the litter. Find one that is nice and flashy with minimum marks.
Nothing on Apmex now in 65 (3 with puddy???)
Found this weirdo that is pretty darn rare in a MS62 that I like...???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-8-St-Gaudens-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS62/382678074470?hash=item5919640466:g:Ei8AAOSwSs1cCEuK:rk:6:pf:1
Anyone want to go for a gold CAC sticker???
My Saint Set
If I were you; I'd select a nice MS-64.
You're pretty safe, at that level, quality-wise and you won't have to pay a huge premium over spot.
Just take care to select one that you find appealing to your eye. Nice strike, few marks and certainly no rub.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Hold off. Unless gold spikes, the common dates will continue to decline over the next few years as new coins surface from European gold hoards. Aim for gem or better if you do pull the trigger and have a trusted dealer cherry a nice one.
I bought a wholesome 1924 Saint in NGC 64 the day my daughter was born 12 years ago for 1300. I watched it climb in value once to 1900 something close to that and now after 12 years its basically the same price.
Really lousy investment, but I feel the money sidelined is worth the price of gazing at and holding the piece whenever I want. Someday I will be proud to give it to her.
I'm a basic ol gold guy as much as an art, history and original mint surface appreciator. This coin touches these bases and more. I can see why some get super serious about them. For me, I don't feel the one or two less ticks a 5 would have justifies the money unless the whole coin speaks to me, then I might go ahead and blow the extra 200 bucks. Sure, higher grades are nice, but I'd rather buy another coin or something else myself. Again, for me, this issue is mostly about the art and I feel I can see it just fine on a 4 for the price. I look for Saints with dusty skin over hits as long as the hits are not right on the face or prime focal area.
love the topic, thanks OP for posing it.
Indeed it is! If you are purchasing a Saint just to own an example, or for inclusion in a Type Set, eye appeal is paramount.
Take your time. With what is available today you can afford to be super selective.
Pete
Here are some graded examples for what its worth.
MS-63
MS-64
MS-65, CAC
@olympicsos.... Welcome aboard. Much depends on why you want the coins... If as a collection or as an investment. If as a collection, look for one that appeals to you - strike, luster, clean surface. If as an investment (always risky), then get a slabbed, CAC, 65 or better. Good luck, Cheers, RickO
I favor nice lustrous PCGS MS64 Saints close to melt. Sticker not a factor. Price is. I have been buying and selling these for decades. I know how look at and grade coins. There is nothing wrong with Nice AU to MS 63 $20 Libs either. I think this material super deal right now.
Buy sight seen at show, etc. Avoid pieces with spots or weak strike.
If these too much investment I like PCGS MS 69 - 70 mod US and World gold close to melt. USA $5 mod Commems great deal right now. These are beautiful high grade coins in the price range of most and fantastic deal. Nobody knows when gold will have next really major bump up. It like a football game where u know sooner or later the gold team is going to score. Don’t be caught flat footed or swayed away. One fav of mine slabbed MS 69 AGB.
You don’t have to be investor in big ticket coins / stick with what your interested in and comfy with, it all adds up.
This is my MS64. I think this is about as pretty as a 64 gets!
My YouTube Channel
Pick your Saints like your women, look at the hands and feet.
I really appreciate everyone's advice! It is very helpful! One thing I will say is that I am looking for a Saint as a collectible that would be something that I am proud to have in my collection and proud to pass down to my kids should intervening circumstances not compel me to sell. I don't want to lose a lot of money on a Saint, but it would be nice to have a Saint which would hold its value or even increase a little bit. I'd rather have one or potentially a few really nice Saints that I'm pleased with and a MS69 2009 UHR gold coin in my collection than a full (or pretty close to full) set of NGC/PCGS certified MS Morgan Dollars, a 1909-S VDB penny and a 1916-D Mercury Dime.
I'm not looking at a Saint purchase as only an investment gold coin. For me, I personally think that an AGE or AGB makes a much better coin if someone is looking at gold coins strictly as an investment.
I look very closely at the legs, the left leg and the left knee specifically.
I wouldn't be too concerned posting about a specific coin you're interested in.
It's very unlikely someone here will scoop it up.
You could benefit from some extra eyes on it.
That 9 over 8 coin above is a fantastic rarity and nobody has purchased it yet.
I'd do it but I'm saving for a 29
Also...Commons may not be as easy as you think.
Most of what I've seen lately have been bottom of the grade or huge premium nice ones with little in between to cherry pick.
24, 27, 28, 08 NM & also 23's have been kind of crappy lately.
I've seen some great 11-D, 10-D, 14-S, 15-S ones
Even some more rare like 13-D, 16-S & 09-S
The 12 & 20 are all going to look bad as they are major condition rarities.
I'll see if I can find that 11-D /65 that I saw last month.
It made me feel sick about how much I paid for mine.
EDIT....It was a 1911-D/D MS-64 PCGS (FS-501) - SKU#104591 at Apmex @ $2280 but I can't find it now so it seems to be gone??...(I think it was under graded by a whole point)
Oh well...If you let me know what you're looking for, I might be able to find one...Good luck!
My Saint Set
By the way, @olympicsos ...
My YouTube Channel
Have fun collecting
Thank you!!!
I am looking at a lot of Saints online, I've looked at some here, some on Legend's page and on other auction websites. I even have looked at proof saints and the high relief saints, not to buy them, but for comparison so I can learn more about the coin and see examples with a really good strike and not intended for commerce so I can know what I want in my Saints. My biggest fear is getting an AU 63, AU 64 or AU 65.
I hear that JA is strict on Saints.
He is very strict--go to CAC's population census and you can see how few he stickers compared to the overall population. If you fear getting an AU63, AU 64 or AU 65 as you mentioned in your post, getting a CAC approved saint will help avoid that.
I would stay away from common date 63-64-65 Saints, way too many for my liking. You did mention "One really nice 66 CAC" and that would be my suggestion. I recently bought a very nice 1926 MS66 CAC for $3,900. If you find a common date that is truly PQ, and these are rare, the seller may ask for a premium, but it MUST be a great coin! otherwise a nice CAC 1924, 1927 or 1928 should be available in the $3,600-$3,800. I am a firm believer in buying the highest grade that you can afford.