Big Auction Bid Strategy
Proofmorgan
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I just had a random thought going into the FUN Auction specifically:
Would you advise against live in person bidding? Meaning, actually sitting in the room and raising your paddle.
This is actually a rare sight from the auctions I’ve attended....as I’ve seen many dealers bidding from their computer or already with set bids.
I could understand from the aspect of remaining anonymous from the dealer standpoint.
My personal fear is that by bidding in the bidding room (although exciting), could ignite further interest in a certain lot. I know that both in room and online bidders know that
A live person is bidding.
It is my observation that at auction time, most lots are 1-2 bids away from hammer from the pre-bidding anyway.
My last experience at FUN was a dealer approaching me upset that I won a lot that he had two clients for. It was amusing so that alone wouldn’t deter me from live bidding again.
What are your thoughts and what is your strategy? Feel free to also throw in any interesting stories from live bidding...
Comments
I kind of wonder how a live auctioneer would interact with a live bidder and multiple online bidders. Can you really get a live bid in faster than the guy pushing a button? And if you do, will the auctioneer be able to "record" your bid before someone hits the mouse button, making the actual high bid holder kind of nebulous??
You're probably better off bidding electronically, even if you're in the room.....(Which is probably why there are so few live bidders!)
Do the statue of Liberty move!
I would wave my paddle once to get the auctioneers attention and then place the paddle face up on my chest and give a little nod to let them know that I am still in. I also liked to sit in an area with a clear sightline of the auctioneer. I would drop out if I was bidding against Mr. Deep Pocket. No sense messing up the “market value” of a coin that I wouldn’t win. Obviously, everyone has their own way of participating.
Good luck.
Set it and forget it.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
This is a GREAT question.
There is no one strategy that guarantees success. Sometimes dealers will see a collector bidding and graciously "bow out." At other times, they try to "read" you to know what you'll do next. Big auctions are hard to play though. There's enough attention that most things sell about where they should. Books could be written about bidding strategies. If a dealer whines about a losing a lot, that's just funny. Unless he had two broken arms he could have raised his bid.
For me, it makes sense to attend in person to "read the room" and then enter bids electronically. Usually though, I just submit my maximum bid early and let it ride. This keeps me out of trouble! It's sometimes discouraging to get beat by a single bid, but in many of those cases the guy you're up against would have bid another two or three increments. I attended the recent Legend auction in San Antonio and watched all of my bids get blown away by multiple increments. I wasn't even in the game. C'est la vie.
I figure that I'm doing OK if I'm the under-bidder about half of the time. If you're winning almost 100% of the lots you're bidding on, you're probably defining a new market and not being careful enough. Most of this stuff comes around frequently enough that missing out on a particular lot isn't the end of the world.
There are VERY few coins that are worth really stretching for. However, they do exist, and when you find them, sometimes you just gotta step up and do what it takes. Almost without exception the coins I end up selling for a profit are the ones I really stretched to acquire. That's interesting to consider. If it's a coin you KNOW you'll hold on to for 20 years, go ahead and bend the rules if you need to. By then the market will be entirely different and what you paid 20 years ago won't mean much. If you really KNOW the series and have a strong reason to believe the coin is under-graded, go ahead and let it rip. Just keep in mind that at big auctions the lots have been examined by any number of people who make their living doing exactly that. You've got to be smarter than them or sometimes just want it more.
Finally, be careful at small "estate" auctions. Almost always there are a few shill bidders in attendance. Just like card sharks, they're really good at reading people and will raise the bid just to earn the company (and the consignor) more money. Get in a war with them and there is no way to win.
Many of us have not seen the lots in person. When I see a live person bidding against me, who has most likely seen the lot, I might bid a bit more.
I bid crazy money once at a local auction...10x what it was worth. Every time, the auctioneer raised the bid again. Finally, the auctioneer told me give up, that the silent bidder told him to "Buy it" no matter what.
Seemed to me at the time to be an inappropriate way for the auctioneer to accept bids, without having an actual dollar amount.
This makes no sense. Auctioneer was taking money out of the consignor's and his pocket.
Why would you bid 10x what something is worth to you?
Auction winner = first overbidder.
IMHO the most important component of the auction process is the lot viewing...after you've had a chance to see the coin in person...then you can step back and ask yourself if you still want it...and how much are you willing to pay for it....
Also IMHO if you are not experienced at live bidding...it is easy to make a mistake and/or overbid...the rush may be worth the cost or not to you...but personally I'd set a max bid and go out to dinner....I've attended some Heritage Auctions and it can be hours before they get to your lot...to me anonymity is not an issue...
Live bidders in the room are often thought of as a set of eyes on a coin that the internet bidder can't view in hand. They often rationalize that "he must know, he's held it in hand".
There's nothing wrong with bidding live. If you win, you know because they point at you and bark out your paddle number. If you set a drop dead number ahead of time and stick with it you're in more control than most.
Local auction for local token. One of those cases where rarity doesn't equal value unless two people want it. The "Value" to me was way more than book, but I didn't have the inside track to the auctioneer.
I do think keeping your interest unknown to the other bidders is very important.
Ive heard it said (maybe here)....There are two people at an action that think the right price was paid for an item: The auctioneer and the winning bidder.
Everyone else thinks the hammer price was too high.
Good question. I haven't attended a live auction at a big show in many years. I would be interested in reading an "Auction Report" from someone after FUN, about how many people were in the room, how many lots went to floor bidders, etc.
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I am a bit advanced with my collections and so I'm down to the nitty gritty.If something I want shows up I either attend to view the lot or, if I'm unable to attend, ask someone I trust(and who's willing) to view it for me so I know it's the real deal.If I can attend,I enjoy the live bidding(Bob Merrill of HA calls me "the snapper" as I tend to fold my card in half and snap it open loudly when I bid)-if I can't attend,I ask the auction house to do a phone bid with me.They call me about 10 lots prior to the lot I want and I bid live over the phone.I guess I'm into the experience of live bidding in one form or another.Either way,I'm a disciplined buyer and have enough experience to not get caught up in the speed and exuberance of the live auction.
You saved him the trouble of deciding which client was worthy of the coin.
I personally never bid in person. I know my personality, and I’ll get caught up in the action, and likely overbid. I prefer to do my bidding online. Seems to work better for me, as I don’t get quite as crazy.
Dave
I have not attended a live coin auction (many live firearm auctions)...so I cannot speak to the action when there are online/phone/live bidders. From this conversation, it looks as if the majority of the bidding is online rather than live. I could have the wrong impression. I know when I attended the auctions, there was always the 'competition' in the room...not sure if there were shill bidders or not....but items very often went for prices beyond reasonable value. Cheers, RickO
I bid live and in person once at a FUN auction. Got to view the lots in person prior to the auction (I think this is very important.) I bid on three lots and won all three. I got one at my max bid and the other two at several increments below my max bid. The room was nearly empty, except for a couple of well-known dealers. It was no more stressful than staring at a computer screen at home watching someone bid you up. Overall, a good experience and I would do it again if I had the chance.
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I think I can speak about bidding in auctions with full authority. What works for me probably won't for others.
1 NEVER EVER telegraph what you are going to bid on or pay. Tipping a friend off could come back at you. I have witnessed this too many times. I'll do it as sort of a bullying tactic to let people know, okay you have to beat me. And I don't lose too often. I do NOT recommend this at all (but I do recommend always zip the lips).
2 Remain focused. I know when we bid on the big girl coins its the fog of war. We hear all the rumors and we get spooked by someone sitting in the room w/the paddle in their lap (happened to us at ANA w/the 13 5C). Either settle on a price you are comfy at-and always allow for a stretch, or go in like a charging bull and just buy it. These days NO ONE plays games on expensive coins.
3 Don't waste your time chasing coins you can buy cheaper on the bourse floor.
4 Internet bidding. I always leave a decent internet bid to test where a coin will really open. A few times I have been lucky and it closed at a cheap number. I have no problem bidding via the internet-like I will next week. Again, remain focused-and its usually best to be there first w/the internet. Do NOT be afraid to leave a max bid in a Legend, Heritage, or Stacks sale.
Sorry, that is all the tid bits I can give....
sorry, don't know how that lettering happened
You used the “#” sign to start your text. This increases the font size to “Header” size.
Maybe I can give another perspective.
I have consigned coins to major sales and bought from them just like most of you. But, I am also an auctioneer and have called many coin sales that some of you may have bought coins through.
Rule number one. If you are bidding on an expensive coin (for you) it is a MUST that either you or a trusted advisor see the coin IN HAND. Nothing can duplicate the experience of seeing the coin under a good light at varying angles to appreciate its beauty and to expose any deficiencies.
I think the best way to bid is to be in the room. I prefer to see the process in person. As an auctioneer I will attempt to give the preference in bidding to a floor bidder. As a floor bidder who has already bid on a particular lot I will always look to you one last time before hammering the sale to be sure you are done bidding.
I tell anyone who can not be represented on the floor to opt for phone bidding on any lot that is important to you. There can be no internet glitch that delays or misses your bid by being on the phone. Companies I work for will even stop the sale in order to be sure you are on the phone for your bid if there is a problem getting ahold of you. You can also place a pre bid and then be on the phone to protect your position if bidding exceeds your preauction limit. Knowing there is a phone bidder will also get you another look before the final hammer.
If you like to bid via the computer be prompt. The longer you wait to bid the more likely it may hammer before your bid is recognized. We can not see you to determine if you are still thinking or if you are out on the lot. A good idea is to have a limit WRITTEN in your catalog or bidding sheet to guide you (no matter how you are bidding). That doesn’t mean you might not exceed it but you will have a good idea of where you will be INCLUDING THE BUYERS PREMIUM during the “heat of battle”. Having to do math on the hammer plus premium may lose you the lot.
If I am bidding on “stuff” and the number is static I leave a bid with the auction company. For those of you reluctant to do this believe me when I tell you that I have seen huge savings for bidders. I have never worked for a company that has done anything Illegal or immoral in their sales. There is too much to loose for a company doing millions of dollars in business to push a few bids. As a professional auctioneer if I was asked to “bounce bids” I would have to report it to the auction commission and I would not work for that company. My professional and personal reputation is too important to risk for an employer.
So, I hope to see you in an auction room sometime soon. If you have any questions about the sale beforehand be sure to ask someone from the auction company. They will be happy to explain any part of the process to you. After all, a confidant bidder is a good bidder.
Should anyone on the forum have any other questions for me please post here. If one person has a question others need the same information but are afraid to ask.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
way to end a thread, BustDMs
awesome response!
You maybe surprised when you bid live online you think you are bidding against floor bidder but in fact you are actually bid against a fake floor bid because auction house pushing it. It is also true for the floor bidder when they think they are against online bidder but it is auction house pushing because house sees where the bid come from and if not hit their secret floor price they will not let it go. So the best way to bid is to do the research and setup your max price and stick to it. If you don't get it then forget it. There is always another auction and another coin coming up.
You think Heritage is doing this?
I am sure most auctions do pushing because they all have their secret price for most item. Only the degree of pushing might be little different. Some push more some less. I don't know how many time I was outbid by one cent in HA because they want to push for one more bid.
I have couple times got second chance offer from HA. I don't know who pushed the price maybe seller or HA, I am not sure but I always turn down the second offer. I told HA that I am so happy that I was out bid. LOL.
Lots of good advice given, but I'd have to be there if it was a special coin I wanted. The game is part of the fun.
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running like a water color in the rain...."
Once I even paid the item for an internet auction at HA but later received email from HA that the whole auction was cancelled due to some bids were not in. That tells you how HA follow their own rules, they will enforce it only when it is in their interest. After that auction I started to reduce my buying from HA. LOL.
this is nonsense. BS to the fake floor bidding. Only one old time company does the potted plant trick (NO NOT Stacks) and most don't even deal w/them. All the majors are clean.
You maybe surprised when you bid live online you think you are bidding against floor bidder but in fact you are actually bid against a fake floor bid because auction house pushing it. It is also true for the floor bidder when they think they are against online bidder but it is auction house pushing because house sees where the bid come from and if not hit their secret floor price they will not let it go. So the best way to bid is to do the research and setup your max price and stick to it. If you don't get it then forget it. There is always another auction and another coin coming up.
How do you get outbid by one cent may I ask? LOL.
You can call HA to ask about it. LOL. I even called HA asking about it. You don't know it does not mean it will not happen.
it may be easier and make more sense if you explain what HA told you. Is it available to look at in the HA archives?
HA said it is allowed to bid 1001 or 501 or 601 etc. As long as you know the max bid on the coin you can hit it like that. I just try it on a coin. I know the other guy is pushing the coin price, so his max bid will not be too far from current bid. it was at 4400, so I bid 4601 next bid. I was outbid. it is at 4800 and next bid is 5000 so I bid 5001. I am the high bidder. The key is you need to know the max bid. When HA or the seller is pushing the price they will bid near your max bid maybe couple bid away unless your price is far from the price they want to sell.
Last I checked, HA does not have 1 cent bid increments.
If the bid increment is $50 then you can bid $50.01. You don't always need to bid in even increments.
Good advice. I hate getting fixated on a piece I missed. It doesn't happen often but I can think about a piece often when it does.