@slider23 said:
Based on the different patterns and colors most of the coins do not appear to be gassed. There are a coouple that have the in holder gas look. My guess the guy is buying Chinese plastic. He cracks the coin from the orginal holder does the AT job and puts the cert and coin into the new plastic. As noted there are some different marks on the plastic of OP before and after coins.
That's possible, but then again the before and after pics were taken by 2 different people. If the coin has the same coloration on the rim then it was probably gassed. With over 100 years of exposure to the elements [unless the coin was dipped to provide a fresh surface] you wouldn't expect the coin to tone the same. When you overexpose to get that hurry up toning you likely get that muddy dull look that you see on the coin now.
@slider23 said:
Based on the different patterns and colors most of the coins do not appear to be gassed. There are a coouple that have the in holder gas look. My guess the guy is buying Chinese plastic. He cracks the coin from the orginal holder does the AT job and puts the cert and coin into the new plastic. As noted there are some different marks on the plastic of OP before and after coins.
So let's see. I buy a "white" coin and crack it out. Then I chemically tone it. Then I take the TPGS plastic parts made in China and reseal the coin. That may be possible but it would be a major operation. In addition to the parts, I would need a slab machine + the dies that held the parts under the ultrasonic ram. This would not be cheap. After doing the math, it is looking better as perhaps I could make a profit after around 500 alterations if I only did dollars. However, I should have drawn some suspicion by then.
@Mark said: @slider23 To me, the slabs seem the same. Check out the the defect in the holder where it touches the coin right at 6 o'clock and the sort of excess plastic around the outer ring near 5 to 6 o'clock. This said, there does seem to be a new defect at about 4 o'clock on the slab in the second picture, after the coin was toned. But the pictures are obviously taken at different angles, so I guess it maybe did not show up in the first picture.
However, I do not see any obvious place where anything, such as a needle, was inserted through the side of the slab in order to introduce gas to the coin. That's too bad because I'd still like to understand how this is done.
Mark
The bottom line is ………… they can somehow do it and it is a definite problem to the hobby!
@Coinstartled said:
So the Wayte Raymond toning was ok if it was unexpected.
Got it!
Different issue than what we're dealing with here. Seller is passing of a coin as having been deemed to have market-acceptable toning by PCGS when that is demonstrably not the case. If the coin in the second sale were suddenly in a new holder after acquiring all its colors, then the "natural vs. artificial vs. questionable toning" holy war could be waged.
I don't disagree. Slab is thirty years old. What if this toning occurred over three decades rather than 3 weeks. Still not ok?
Had it taken 30 years for this color to develop, and had it developed exactly like this, our hosts would be in a pickle. The toning doesn't look like something they'd let pass, yet it's in a holder, and there's no record of the color at the time of holdering, so no telling what went wrong. I don't know that this is a legitimate scenario or not. Did anyone put away a bunch of white coins in these holders 20-30 years ago in hostile environments with the expectation that a generation later they'd have a box full of rainbow toners they could sell for Obscene Profit™ and realize any success in doing so? If PCGS started seeing a lot of never-market-acceptable toning in rattlers, they might even choose to say there's no longer a guarantee regarding market acceptability of color for coins in those holders, because they see a significant threat to their reputation coming from coins like the above.
I think there's going to be a Heritage-style slab snapshot added to all coins holdered in the near future. They'll set up a photo booth right next to the slabbing machines and take driver's license photos of the obverse and reverse in the same time it takes to encapsulate a coin.
@messydesk said:
They'll set up a photo booth right next to the slabbing machines and take driver's license photos of the obverse and reverse in the same time it takes to encapsulate a coin.
And those without a valid picture ID get to have their coin slabbed twice.
Here is the before and after on the 84 O cert# 9141993. The coin sold on eBay 10/26/18. I am changing my position. I am going with the gas as I can see some of the same marks on this holder. The guy is very good as he is getting different type toning with the gas.
@AmazingIntellect said:
Well one method isn't the excuse offered way back when. When caught red handed with a bunch on the bay, and had purchased several of these newly 'improved colorful gems' merely the month before and the original pics were still able to be viewed , somehow his "I accidentally left a box of 20 overnight on a radiator" didn't fly.
Kind of like ordering "fast food" at the local Mickey Dee's. Toning while you wait.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@PerryHall said:
Those AT coins are hideous looking. People that pay a premium for that toning should get rid of their seeing eye dog and get a new one.
Definitely ATed but how is it possible to gas one side of the coin and not the other side?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Can we even be certain that any of these that we see today are real?
Look at that aberration with an MS 64 and a CAC sticker to boot. How much is fake. Maybe the picture has been doctored.
2 more reasons why I do not buy toned coins and coins with a CAC sticker.
Most jeweler's can tell a real diamond from a cubic zirconia at a glance just as most coin dealers can tell artificially toned from naturally toned coins. The people getting burnt on these are probably new to the hobby thinking that the coin must be legitimate because it's in a PCGS holder.
@Dave99B said:
Wow. All of this is very, very disturbing.
It's also another reason why PCGS should photograph EVERY coin it grades, and make these images available on the Cert Verification page.
Dave
I'd be surprised if PCGS didn't do this already for their own, private databases. What are the downsides to PCGS publishing any in-house photos, aside from counterfeits, assuming they have them? They've certainly had the capability to photograph every coin since the Gold Shield/Secure program started.
OT - The next thing would be culling the pop reports. How could PCGS incentivize (besides 50 cents per returned label or is that ATS?) the collector community to report their coins? I wish I knew.
Hypathetical question for pcgs.
What if someone offered to show pcgs how to do this, how to tone them amd get them past secure plus, is that informatuo> @CuKevin said:
Anyone want to help me make the bidding go nuclear?
That's childish, his images are juiced beyond recognition, pcgs consistantly does little if anything to stop this. He may have bought the coin and has no idea, meaning with his ebay I dont feel is the correct way to rectify the situation. Our host should be doing something
@Leroy said:
Most jeweler's can tell a real diamond from a cubic zirconia at a glance just as most coin dealers can tell artificially toned from naturally toned coins. The people getting burnt on these are probably new to the hobby thinking that the coin must be legitimate because it's in a PCGS holder.
That's incorrect , most dealers have no idea. The ones that do are the ones who specialize in that segment and even several of them are clueless.
I think some of the posters are onto something. TPGs should consider photographing all coins they grade, and the photos could be online as part of cert verification.
@Beneteau said:
That's childish, his images are juiced beyond recognition, pcgs consistantly does little if anything to stop this. He may have bought the coin and has no idea, meaning with his ebay I dont feel is the correct way to rectify the situation. Our host should be doing something
The previous seller of the UNTONED version of this coin has confirmed that the NEW SELLER is the one who bought it from him.
@Beneteau said:
That's childish, his images are juiced beyond recognition, pcgs consistantly does little if anything to stop this. He may have bought the coin and has no idea, meaning with his ebay I dont feel is the correct way to rectify the situation. Our host should be doing something
The previous seller of the UNTONED version of this coin has confirmed that the NEW SELLER is the one who bought it from him.
I'm sorry I did not click the link he provided, I had assumed it was for th fac stickerd rattler, neon blue one. The others as you stated have been confirmed to be purchased by same person from seller and then toned, those ones should be pulled from ebay by pcgs as he is confirmed to be the purchaser. The blue one from different seller just looks like super juiced image so I would dig some more before jumping to conclusions with his listings , all his pics are juiced
As Scully said this could be Explained through sound science. Now the real question is who is telling the truth?
I know I personally never buy toned coins as a general rule. I only pay what the coin is worth and never the inflated toned worth. Not worth it.
This is Not an X-file.
Perhaps some of you would like to guess how much it would cost and what it would entail imaging every coin sent into a grading service. Let's make it simple. How about only Morgan and Peace dollars. How much time added to the turnaround, how many employees, etc?
When I was first hired at ANACS in DC, my first job was to weigh every coin and photograph both sides. No fun and time-consuming. I'll guarantee the major TPGS's receive more coins in two days than we got in a week!
Now if a TPGS ever did image every coin and could ID any coin sent in a second time, they could grade it the same each time. There would be no reason to send a coin in to be graded BY THAT COMPANY ever again. What do you think that would do to their profitability? All these ideas are nice but get real. Several TPGS's with different personnel provides the possibility of a little wiggle room that pays the light bill and gives knowledgeable numismatists the potential of a big score.
I seriously doubt PCGS would prefer repeat submission revenue over increased security and transparency around it’s certified coins. Nope, I don’t buy that.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
How many are being passed and graded by PCGS and then placed in slabs. Wow !! makes you wonder if PCGS can even tell AT is taking place. This is why I stay away from toned coins. Shabby toned coins are easy to detect but the slab coin listed here looks good. PCGS, can you tell this coin is AT by looking at the pictures ?
@FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
Verify NGC Certification
Additionally, since October 2008 nearly every coin that NGC has graded has been imaged in the NGC holder prior to being returned to the submitter. These images, along with NGC’s certification data, can be helpful to assess an NGC holder’s authenticity. Images and certification data are available for free in the Verify NGC Certification tool on the NGC website and well as NGC's mobile app.
I hope the new PCGS managment team takes a serious look at imaging each certified coin. I would like to have the tool to compare a PCGS image to a possible counterfeit or gassed coin as it is a growing problem.
@slider23 said:
I hope the new PCGS managment team takes a serious look at imaging each certified coin. I would like to have the tool to compare a PCGS image to a possible counterfeit or gassed coin as it is a growing problem.
I have yet to see a coin gassed in the holder that was even remotely attractive. Lack of access to the surface limits what the Docs can do. In the entire scheme of things, I don't think this is a pervasive problem threatening the industry.
@slider23 said:
I hope the new PCGS managment team takes a serious look at imaging each certified coin. I would like to have the tool to compare a PCGS image to a possible counterfeit or gassed coin as it is a growing problem.
How useful would these images be for the thousands of moderns in MS-69 or 70 and PF-69 or 70?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
That's possible, but then again the before and after pics were taken by 2 different people. If the coin has the same coloration on the rim then it was probably gassed. With over 100 years of exposure to the elements [unless the coin was dipped to provide a fresh surface] you wouldn't expect the coin to tone the same. When you overexpose to get that hurry up toning you likely get that muddy dull look that you see on the coin now.
So let's see. I buy a "white" coin and crack it out. Then I chemically tone it. Then I take the TPGS plastic parts made in China and reseal the coin. That may be possible but it would be a major operation. In addition to the parts, I would need a slab machine + the dies that held the parts under the ultrasonic ram. This would not be cheap. After doing the math, it is looking better as perhaps I could make a profit after around 500 alterations if I only did dollars. However, I should have drawn some suspicion by then.
The bottom line is ………… they can somehow do it and it is a definite problem to the hobby!
Had it taken 30 years for this color to develop, and had it developed exactly like this, our hosts would be in a pickle. The toning doesn't look like something they'd let pass, yet it's in a holder, and there's no record of the color at the time of holdering, so no telling what went wrong. I don't know that this is a legitimate scenario or not. Did anyone put away a bunch of white coins in these holders 20-30 years ago in hostile environments with the expectation that a generation later they'd have a box full of rainbow toners they could sell for Obscene Profit™ and realize any success in doing so? If PCGS started seeing a lot of never-market-acceptable toning in rattlers, they might even choose to say there's no longer a guarantee regarding market acceptability of color for coins in those holders, because they see a significant threat to their reputation coming from coins like the above.
I think there's going to be a Heritage-style slab snapshot added to all coins holdered in the near future. They'll set up a photo booth right next to the slabbing machines and take driver's license photos of the obverse and reverse in the same time it takes to encapsulate a coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
And those without a valid picture ID get to have their coin slabbed twice.
Love the title of the thread.
what a shame to see that done.
you both do.
Here is the before and after on the 84 O cert# 9141993. The coin sold on eBay 10/26/18. I am changing my position. I am going with the gas as I can see some of the same marks on this holder. The guy is very good as he is getting different type toning with the gas.
Ugh. That 1884-O needs a doctor to figure out a way to dip a coin in the slab.
Kind of like ordering "fast food" at the local Mickey Dee's. Toning while you wait.
@slider23 said: "I am changing my position."
It takes a BIG man to change their position. Thanks for the images.
Like a unicorn's sneeze...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1887-P-MS64-CAC-UNBELIEVABLE-BLUE-GREEN-NEON-MONSTER-TOP-NOTCH-RAINBOW-TONER/392172809636?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Smurf vomit.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
With a CAC sticker.
someone already posted...
He who knows he has enough is rich.
These examples make me sick! Those were nice, clean, white coins in old slabs!
My YouTube Channel
Definitely ATed but how is it possible to gas one side of the coin and not the other side?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The photo is AT. Look at the rest of the pics from that seller. I am thinking the color of that coin is about 10% of the intensity depicted.
Don't ghost me and then pretend that everything is OK when I find you at the bar, you hussy.
Can we even be certain that any of these that we see today are real?
Look at that aberration with an MS 64 and a CAC sticker to boot. How much is fake. Maybe the picture has been doctored.
2 more reasons why I do not buy toned coins and coins with a CAC sticker.
Most jeweler's can tell a real diamond from a cubic zirconia at a glance just as most coin dealers can tell artificially toned from naturally toned coins. The people getting burnt on these are probably new to the hobby thinking that the coin must be legitimate because it's in a PCGS holder.
Wow. All of this is very, very disturbing.
It's also another reason why PCGS should photograph EVERY coin it grades, and make these images available on the Cert Verification page.
Dave
I'd be surprised if PCGS didn't do this already for their own, private databases. What are the downsides to PCGS publishing any in-house photos, aside from counterfeits, assuming they have them? They've certainly had the capability to photograph every coin since the Gold Shield/Secure program started.
OT - The next thing would be culling the pop reports. How could PCGS incentivize (besides 50 cents per returned label or is that ATS?) the collector community to report their coins? I wish I knew.
Anyone want to help me make the bidding go nuclear?
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Hypathetical question for pcgs.
What if someone offered to show pcgs how to do this, how to tone them amd get them past secure plus, is that informatuo> @CuKevin said:
That's childish, his images are juiced beyond recognition, pcgs consistantly does little if anything to stop this. He may have bought the coin and has no idea, meaning with his ebay I dont feel is the correct way to rectify the situation. Our host should be doing something
That's incorrect , most dealers have no idea. The ones that do are the ones who specialize in that segment and even several of them are clueless.
I think some of the posters are onto something. TPGs should consider photographing all coins they grade, and the photos could be online as part of cert verification.
The previous seller of the UNTONED version of this coin has confirmed that the NEW SELLER is the one who bought it from him.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
I'm sorry I did not click the link he provided, I had assumed it was for th fac stickerd rattler, neon blue one. The others as you stated have been confirmed to be purchased by same person from seller and then toned, those ones should be pulled from ebay by pcgs as he is confirmed to be the purchaser. The blue one from different seller just looks like super juiced image so I would dig some more before jumping to conclusions with his listings , all his pics are juiced
I guess that statement didn't offend everyone on this forum, just a few of them that happen to be dealers.
As Scully said this could be Explained through sound science. Now the real question is who is telling the truth?
I know I personally never buy toned coins as a general rule. I only pay what the coin is worth and never the inflated toned worth. Not worth it.
This is Not an X-file.
🤔🤔did you assume I was offended and assume I was a coin dealer ?
Seems like a note to CAC would be in order. If it is somehow later toned, they could de-CAC it in the database.
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perhaps some of you would like to guess how much it would cost and what it would entail imaging every coin sent into a grading service. Let's make it simple. How about only Morgan and Peace dollars. How much time added to the turnaround, how many employees, etc?
When I was first hired at ANACS in DC, my first job was to weigh every coin and photograph both sides. No fun and time-consuming. I'll guarantee the major TPGS's receive more coins in two days than we got in a week!
Now if a TPGS ever did image every coin and could ID any coin sent in a second time, they could grade it the same each time. There would be no reason to send a coin in to be graded BY THAT COMPANY ever again. What do you think that would do to their profitability? All these ideas are nice but get real. Several TPGS's with different personnel provides the possibility of a little wiggle room that pays the light bill and gives knowledgeable numismatists the potential of a big score.
I seriously doubt PCGS would prefer repeat submission revenue over increased security and transparency around it’s certified coins. Nope, I don’t buy that.
Dave
How many are being passed and graded by PCGS and then placed in slabs. Wow !! makes you wonder if PCGS can even tell AT is taking place. This is why I stay away from toned coins. Shabby toned coins are easy to detect but the slab coin listed here looks good. PCGS, can you tell this coin is AT by looking at the pictures ?
... because "delicate flowers" could hurt feelings.
@FadeToBlack - 'NGC Just scans them, but it's enough.'
Amen, brother. Would love the see that happen on this side of the street. In fact, I expect it's inevitable.
Dave
remarkable how people don't read what the OP wrote and then look at pics of the before and after photos. 'Merica
@FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
The coin doctor got a negative for an ATed raw coin.
Definitely AT! Not as described! All the coins are Artificial toned, be careful
Verify NGC Certification
Additionally, since October 2008 nearly every coin that NGC has graded has been imaged in the NGC holder prior to being returned to the submitter. These images, along with NGC’s certification data, can be helpful to assess an NGC holder’s authenticity. Images and certification data are available for free in the Verify NGC Certification tool on the NGC website and well as NGC's mobile app.
https://ngccoin.com/security-center/
I hope the new PCGS managment team takes a serious look at imaging each certified coin. I would like to have the tool to compare a PCGS image to a possible counterfeit or gassed coin as it is a growing problem.
I have yet to see a coin gassed in the holder that was even remotely attractive. Lack of access to the surface limits what the Docs can do. In the entire scheme of things, I don't think this is a pervasive problem threatening the industry.
How useful would these images be for the thousands of moderns in MS-69 or 70 and PF-69 or 70?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire