@ricko said:
Tarnish is tarnish....'questionable' means they could not determine if it was NT or AT....The origin of tarnish matters to collectors because one has occurred over time and the other was intentionally induced in a relatively short period and also may have been done with chemicals not normally encountered. They are both environmental damage to the surface of the coin. For NT, there is a premium... for known AT there is scorn...except in some cases. I have seen premiums paid for wild colors on some coins that were obviously not natural. So, it does matter to coin purists. Cheers, RickO
You'd thunk them fashion a brotherhood by now..........it just ain't a happening!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
Verify NGC Certification
Additionally, since October 2008 nearly every coin that NGC has graded has been imaged in the NGC holder prior to being returned to the submitter. These images, along with NGC’s certification data, can be helpful to assess an NGC holder’s authenticity. Images and certification data are available for free in the Verify NGC Certification tool on the NGC website and well as NGC's mobile app.
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
Verify NGC Certification
Additionally, since October 2008 nearly every coin that NGC has graded has been imaged in the NGC holder prior to being returned to the submitter. These images, along with NGC’s certification data, can be helpful to assess an NGC holder’s authenticity. Images and certification data are available for free in the Verify NGC Certification tool on the NGC website and well as NGC's mobile app.
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
Every coin I've ever seen in a semi-modern ngc holder has a picture. I challenge you to find one that doesn't
@Insider2 said: @FadeToBlack said: "NGC Just scans them but it's enough. If you do it the way they do it, scanning after slabbing, you can probably have a robot do 99% of the work."
I think we all are interested in learning new things...so Confirmation please. Are you saying that NGC scans EVERY coin after they are slabbed? Care to let us know where this info came from? Do you work at NGC?
I'll see one of the employees who do the imaging over there at the Sarasota Show. Perhaps I'll be able to add something to this thread.
Verify NGC Certification
Additionally, since October 2008 nearly every coin that NGC has graded has been imaged in the NGC holder prior to being returned to the submitter. These images, along with NGC’s certification data, can be helpful to assess an NGC holder’s authenticity. Images and certification data are available for free in the Verify NGC Certification tool on the NGC website and well as NGC's mobile app.
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
Collector of numeral seals.That's the 1928 and 1928A series of FRNs with a number rather than a letter in the district seal. Owner/operator of Bottom Line Currency
@PerryHall - How useful would these images be for the thousands of moderns in MS-69 or 70 and PF-69 or 70?
Very useful...
If the Cert Verification image shows a blast white coin, but it's now a DOUBLED RAINBOWED TONED MONSTER, I'd like to know that.
If the Cert Verification image shows a darkly toned, blotchy coin, but it's suddenly BLAST WHITE, the Doctor Dip has played with it, and I'd like to know that too!
Since when is too much information a bad thing? NGC does it, and somehow manages to stay in business.
With all the monkey business going on these days, it's only a matter of time, folks. Death, Taxes, and Images, please!
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
We've seen this before. MOC thread.
Coin was toned in the slab. Rattlers edges were breached. Something to do with vacuum air and gas if I remember correctly.
It would be great if PCGS would TV all coins graded, but that would be very time consuming. They would need a break off point and I think 1964 would be a good year to stop on.
@Barndog said:
I think the key word in NGC's description is "nearly"
Yeah....most likely legal boilerplate, in case something is missed and someone complains.
Imagine 100 silver eagles coming in, and only 99 get imaged and the missed one has a tiny identifying mark.....couldn't imagine ANY coin person making a stink about a pic not being there for something that important, if they had said "all", right?
@Insider2 said:
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
And, Insider2, not sure why you ask for someone to answer your question and, when they do, you get defiant of their answer and don't want to believe them. Definitely ask for yourself to the person you know at NGC, but what BD had posted is what I was aware of as well.....they scan/image practically everything coming through them in recent history. The quality isn't great, but it does at least help identify things sometimes.......even such as a good, quality, FAKE holder with the wrong coin, or a REAL holder put back together with a FAKE coin.
I think, at sometime in the past few years, something like that came up.
And, I also believe that Phil (PCGS's photographer extreme) stated on this board, at some recent point in history (maybe a year or a bit more ago) that they were trying to do more imaging on coins coming through. Not necessarily real trueviews, with the higher quality and multiple shots at times, but quick images to help in identifying coins. I think it came up when someone was questioning if trueview quality had gone down at that time and it was mentioned that the pics in question weren't true trueviews.
Looks a hundred times better, what is the problem? NASA could use this guy, toning a coin in an airtight holder? This guy could probably figure out how to oxygenate Mars.
@ARCO said:
Looks a hundred times better, what is the problem? NASA could use this guy, toning a coin in an airtight holder? This guy could probably figure out how to oxygenate Mars.
Slabs are definitely not air-tight, especially the rattler slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@asheland said:
These examples make me sick! Those were nice, clean, white coins in old slabs!
Yeah. The key to white lustrous is "dipped". Neither gassed or dipped is natural.
Not every white coin has been dipped.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Leroy said:
Most jeweler's can tell a real diamond from a cubic zirconia at a glance just as most coin dealers can tell artificially toned from naturally toned coins. The people getting burnt on these are probably new to the hobby thinking that the coin must be legitimate because it's in a PCGS holder.
Understandably so... We have members telling people to basically pay attention to the brand of slab and stickers so when they see a PCGS CAC toner, they throw fistfuls of money at it. It happens when you cannot grade for yourself and know nothing about coins, but survive based on plastic and sticker crutches.
@AmazingIntellect said:
Well one method isn't the excuse offered way back when. When caught red handed with a bunch on the bay, and had purchased several of these newly 'improved colorful gems' merely the month before and the original pics were still able to be viewed , somehow his "I accidentally left a box of 20 overnight on a radiator" didn't fly.
Kind of like ordering "fast food" at the local Mickey Dee's. Toning while you wait.
And you don't know what you got until you get home and open the bag.
@BryceM said:
Gassed in the slab would be my guess. I'm pretty sure this is the only time this has ever happened.
There was a forum member here who did that once and had egg on his face when he was caught red handed.
He's still a member here and occasionally still posts.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Seems like many are assuming that imaging every coin means taking a trueview of every coin. Get trueview imaging out of your minds. All they would have to do is pass the coin under a camera with decent lighting and make sure it is still in focus once in a while. I was able to do just this and took pictures of all the slabbed coins that I own, each one easily good enough to see identifying features, color, and luster. Took only a few seconds per coin once I got the groove down. I see no reason why this would be "too difficult" or "too expensive" to put into the grading process for a company of PCGS's size and standards. I know, then they would have to associate each picture with the certification; but actually they wouldn't. With the bar-code recognition that they already have, photos could be dumped into one location and run batch-style through an identifier program to associate them with the certifications after the fact. This is probably something that a computer science major could accomplish as a junior or senior.
@Barndog said:
I think the key word in NGC's description is "nearly"
Yeah....most likely legal boilerplate, in case something is missed and someone complains.
Imagine 100 silver eagles coming in, and only 99 get imaged and the missed one has a tiny identifying mark.....couldn't imagine ANY coin person making a stink about a pic not being there for something that important, if they had said "all", right?
@Insider2 said:
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
And, Insider2, not sure why you ask for someone to answer your question and, when they do, you get defiant of their answer and don't want to believe them. Definitely ask for yourself to the person you know at NGC, but what BD had posted is what I was aware of as well.....they scan/image practically everything coming through them in recent history. The quality isn't great, but it does at least help identify things sometimes.......even such as a good, quality, FAKE holder with the wrong coin, or a REAL holder put back together with a FAKE coin.
I think, at sometime in the past few years, something like that came up.
And, I also believe that Phil (PCGS's photographer extreme) stated on this board, at some recent point in history (maybe a year or a bit more ago) that they were trying to do more imaging on coins coming through. Not necessarily real trueviews, with the higher quality and multiple shots at times, but quick images to help in identifying coins. I think it came up when someone was questioning if trueview quality had gone down at that time and it was mentioned that the pics in question weren't true trueviews.
Simple. WORDS MEAN SOMETHING! The word "defiant" does not apply. You see, I have learned not to believe anything I read or hear. Lot's of misinformation in my past from the mouth of "Ex-Perts." I truly appreciated the confirmation that ALL coins sent to NGC are imaged. I worked at NGC before their Imaging Dept. was in full swing. I've met at least one of the young employees doing the imaging and he seems to be a very hard working, conscientious fellow. I also know how many GREEN MONSTER BOXES come into the place. So, I don't believe ALL coins are imaged. I'll let you know as this thread has slipped my mind.
So, "trying to do more imaging" and "nearly" does not add up to ALL.
PS I tell my students to listen to what I tell them and then go out and prove it to themselves.
So after reading the entire prior post from 2006, there certainly seems to be less emotion and reaction shown on the subject this time. It certainly is good educational information for a newer member like myself to know what to watch out for. Certainly has me thinking twice and being sure about buying any older holders.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I wish HappyLittleTrees would post more here or does he have a contractual residency over at the OFR which prohibits this ?
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
You'd thunk them fashion a brotherhood by now..........it just ain't a happening!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Good to know but I don't believe it - yet. Not until I ask for myself. ** If what you posted is actually TRUE and not something written on a website, that means uncle Joe's 2018-W silver eagle and hs Fine 1909-S 1c are both imaged by NGC.**
Every coin I've ever seen in a semi-modern ngc holder has a picture. I challenge you to find one that doesn't
I looked up uncle joe's coins on ebay, and these are the first I saw. Both have pics
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4652161-010/70/
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4703648-013/15/
I think the key word in NGC's description is "nearly"
The seller has 73 sold listings and each are toned Morgans...many of which look horrific(IMO).That's a pretty big red flag for me.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/canes_70/m.html?item=183539117957&nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684
@PerryHall - How useful would these images be for the thousands of moderns in MS-69 or 70 and PF-69 or 70?
Very useful...
If the Cert Verification image shows a blast white coin, but it's now a DOUBLED RAINBOWED TONED MONSTER, I'd like to know that.
If the Cert Verification image shows a darkly toned, blotchy coin, but it's suddenly BLAST WHITE, the Doctor Dip has played with it, and I'd like to know that too!
Since when is too much information a bad thing? NGC does it, and somehow manages to stay in business.
With all the monkey business going on these days, it's only a matter of time, folks. Death, Taxes, and Images, please!
Dave
None of the above.
They're natural - just sped up. That is the difference.
Kinda like this -
Busted.
Burn in hell coin doctor.
Kind of, but I didn't see anything on the label saying it was natural.
We've seen this before. MOC thread.
Coin was toned in the slab. Rattlers edges were breached. Something to do with vacuum air and gas if I remember correctly.
It would be great if PCGS would TV all coins graded, but that would be very time consuming. They would need a break off point and I think 1964 would be a good year to stop on.
Yeah....most likely legal boilerplate, in case something is missed and someone complains.
Imagine 100 silver eagles coming in, and only 99 get imaged and the missed one has a tiny identifying mark.....couldn't imagine ANY coin person making a stink about a pic not being there for something that important, if they had said "all", right?
And, Insider2, not sure why you ask for someone to answer your question and, when they do, you get defiant of their answer and don't want to believe them. Definitely ask for yourself to the person you know at NGC, but what BD had posted is what I was aware of as well.....they scan/image practically everything coming through them in recent history. The quality isn't great, but it does at least help identify things sometimes.......even such as a good, quality, FAKE holder with the wrong coin, or a REAL holder put back together with a FAKE coin.
I think, at sometime in the past few years, something like that came up.
And, I also believe that Phil (PCGS's photographer extreme) stated on this board, at some recent point in history (maybe a year or a bit more ago) that they were trying to do more imaging on coins coming through. Not necessarily real trueviews, with the higher quality and multiple shots at times, but quick images to help in identifying coins. I think it came up when someone was questioning if trueview quality had gone down at that time and it was mentioned that the pics in question weren't true trueviews.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Looks a hundred times better, what is the problem? NASA could use this guy, toning a coin in an airtight holder? This guy could probably figure out how to oxygenate Mars.
Slabs are definitely not air-tight, especially the rattler slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yeah. The key to white lustrous is "dipped". Neither gassed or dipped is natural.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not every white coin has been dipped.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There was a forum member here who did that once and had egg on his face when he was caught red handed.
Agreed. But the vast majority are, AND are market acceptable. (Not that I would pay up for them)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Understandably so... We have members telling people to basically pay attention to the brand of slab and stickers so when they see a PCGS CAC toner, they throw fistfuls of money at it. It happens when you cannot grade for yourself and know nothing about coins, but survive based on plastic and sticker crutches.
And you don't know what you got until you get home and open the bag.
He's still a member here and occasionally still posts.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Seems like many are assuming that imaging every coin means taking a trueview of every coin. Get trueview imaging out of your minds. All they would have to do is pass the coin under a camera with decent lighting and make sure it is still in focus once in a while. I was able to do just this and took pictures of all the slabbed coins that I own, each one easily good enough to see identifying features, color, and luster. Took only a few seconds per coin once I got the groove down. I see no reason why this would be "too difficult" or "too expensive" to put into the grading process for a company of PCGS's size and standards. I know, then they would have to associate each picture with the certification; but actually they wouldn't. With the bar-code recognition that they already have, photos could be dumped into one location and run batch-style through an identifier program to associate them with the certifications after the fact. This is probably something that a computer science major could accomplish as a junior or senior.
Collector, occasional seller
Simple. WORDS MEAN SOMETHING! The word "defiant" does not apply. You see, I have learned not to believe anything I read or hear. Lot's of misinformation in my past from the mouth of "Ex-Perts." I truly appreciated the confirmation that ALL coins sent to NGC are imaged. I worked at NGC before their Imaging Dept. was in full swing. I've met at least one of the young employees doing the imaging and he seems to be a very hard working, conscientious fellow. I also know how many GREEN MONSTER BOXES come into the place. So, I don't believe ALL coins are imaged. I'll let you know as this thread has slipped my mind.
So, "trying to do more imaging" and "nearly" does not add up to ALL.
PS I tell my students to listen to what I tell them and then go out and prove it to themselves.
So after reading the entire prior post from 2006, there certainly seems to be less emotion and reaction shown on the subject this time. It certainly is good educational information for a newer member like myself to know what to watch out for. Certainly has me thinking twice and being sure about buying any older holders.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Cheaters
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Cert is still valid. Will PCGS be giving guidance as to how to report these in the future?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I wish HappyLittleTrees would post more here or does he have a contractual residency over at the OFR which prohibits this ?
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......