I'm not sure I'd remove the listing completely. We've all run into a cert lookup now and then that doesn't come up in the database for one reason or another, and especially with older holders, it may just get overlooked as "Well, it's a Rattler".
If it were up to me (Clearly not) - I would screenshot the 2 pics in this thread and attach them to the cert lookup - with a "Original Coin" and "After Artificial Toning done while in the slab" - but I think we would have copyright issues using those images.
2nd choice would be in this section:
List something like:
10/29/18 - eBay as a white coin
11/19/18 - Coin is being resold after being chemically altered in the slab with artificial toning
Perhaps now next to the grade where it says MS63 - put: MS63 (originally) - as of 11/19/18 - Artificially Toned or something like that.
I'm not sure I'd remove the listing completely. We've all run into a cert lookup now and then that doesn't come up in the database for one reason or another, and especially with older holders, it may just get overlooked as "Well, it's a Rattler".
If it were up to me (Clearly not) - I would screenshot the 2 pics in this thread and attach them to the cert lookup - with a "Original Coin" and "After Artificial Toning done while in the slab" - but I think we would have copyright issues using those images.
2nd choice would be in this section:
List something like:
10/29/18 - eBay as a white coin
11/19/18 - Coin is being resold after being chemically altered in the slab with artificial toning
Perhaps now next to the grade where it says MS63 - put: MS63 (originally) - as of 11/19/18 - Artificially Toned or something like that.
But that's just me.
Something like that would be a good idea! NGC recently did this with a coin that was proven to be gassed:
Well one method isn't the excuse offered way back when. When caught red handed with a bunch on the bay, and had purchased several of these newly 'improved colorful gems' merely the month before and the original pics were still able to be viewed , somehow his "I accidentally left a box of 20 overnight on a radiator" didn't fly.
@AmazingIntellect said:
Well one method isn't the excuse offered way back when. When caught red handed with a bunch on the bay, and had purchased several of these newly 'improved colorful gems' merely the month before and the original pics were still able to be viewed , somehow his "I accidentally left a box of 20 overnight on a radiator" didn't fly.
Those AT coins are hideous looking. People that pay a premium for that toning should get rid of their seeing eye dog and get a new one.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Insider2 said: @coinbuf said: "Check a couple posts above yours, you can get the full details from the forum member caught doing this. He is still a member today."
I read the entire thread. No info. I was hoping for some PM's. I'll find out several methods in due time.
Hence why I wrote from the forum member not the thread, I was here when that was going on so I know the details are not laid out in that old thread.
Once it's pulled, then the auction is fair game to be reported to eBay as not being in a valid PCGS holder.
I hope that there's some way to flag the holder for what it is, even if that information is not currently available to the public, so that the seller can't simply present it to someone at PCGS saying "there must be a mistake" and have the cert reinstated.
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Can I hire this guy to do custom work? My 4 year old daughter is having a birthday soon and she would think it is really cool to have her name in rainbow colors on a Morgan (or a 1794 Dollar) within a slab - PCGS of course.
In all seriousness, this person should face the wrath of the entire collecting community and PCGS. Not cool at all.
I'm truly sorry, if I hurt anybodies feelings. I sometimes forget what a delicate little world we live in today. I got warned for breaking a rule on phobias. And for the record I have no phobias, in fact I have friends and some family who are, can I say "Happy"! So, again please forgive me if I came off the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. In the future, I will try to be more careful on my choice of words...
@BryceM said:
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
Too bad you just relinquished the idea to Our Hosts by posting it here. Going forward, an indicator in the label that turns color when exposed to a hostile environment would be cool, but would do nothing for the rattlers that are most susceptible to this.
I think bird-dogging more evidence about this guy's sales and encouraging PCGS's legal department to send him a Scary Letter™ might be pretty effective.
@PerryHall said:
Those AT coins are hideous looking. People that pay a premium for that toning should get rid of their seeing eye dog and get a new one.
Some idiot has bid up the first one to $101! Or could be someone trying to “win” it nad never pay for it like Mark Feld used to do 😆
@BryceM said:
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
@BryceM said:
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
C4 is highly explosive, but it is very stable. You can literally burn it like firewood with nothing to worry about. However, if you were to burn it and while it was on fire, take a hammer to it, well that is different.
@BryceM said:
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
C4 is highly explosive, but it is very stable. You can literally burn it like firewood with nothing to worry about. However, if you were to burn it and while it was on fire, take a hammer to it, well that is different.
I was wanting to do some serious damage to these coin doctors!!
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
Nope, burns fine at atmospheric pressure. It can even be used to heat up C ration food.
While in the employ of one Uncle Sam, my team was afforded the opportunity to parachute in, and destroy a railroad bridge and water tower. I carried a good amount of the C4, and others carried some, but the 2 people that carried the blasting caps were kept away from the C4.
Neither structure was standing by morning.
It was quite exciting to actually plan, set, wire, and then twist the handles on the blasting plungers, and watch everything come tumbling down.
BTW, the wire used on Claymore Mines IIRC, had a silver plating and made great speaker wire when the original device was consumed.
@PerryHall said:
Those AT coins are hideous looking. People that pay a premium for that toning should get rid of their seeing eye dog and get a new one.
Some idiot has bid up the first one to $101! Or could be someone trying to “win” it nad never pay for it like Mark Feld used to do 😆
There were several of us that did this. Mark and I had much fun and happy bidding! Sometimes we could hear the selling singing all the way to the bank, but alas he got nothing. Many times our bids exceeded 10K for common coins. Great fun.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
@BryceM said:
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
C4 is highly explosive, but it is very stable. You can literally burn it like firewood with nothing to worry about. However, if you were to burn it and while it was on fire, take a hammer to it, well that is different.
I was wanting to do some serious damage to these coin doctors!!
I used to work with explosives on a daily basis when I was in the military. Some things would make me nervous, but most didn't bother me one bit. As @mustangmanbob mentioned above, it was the blasting caps you had to worry about.
@Coinstartled said:
Might be a good time to start a "define the difference between AT and NT" thread.
The forum has yet to reach a consensus on that.
Sometimes it's hard to define AT in words but like Potter Stewart said in 1954 I know it when I see it and every one of the coin doctor's items for sale is AT.
@Coinstartled said:
Might be a good time to start a "define the difference between AT and NT" thread.
The forum has yet to reach a consensus on that.
Sometimes it's hard to define AT in words but like Potter Stewart said in 1954 I know it when I see it and every one of the coin doctor's items for sale is AT.
>
Meaning that the toning was intentional....I get that. But how is it different than toning that is not intentional...and does it really matter how the so called tarnish originated?
I have seen notations of artificial toning as well as questionable toning. I am not sure what questionable means. It is still toning.
Tarnish is tarnish....'questionable' means they could not determine if it was NT or AT....The origin of tarnish matters to collectors because one has occurred over time and the other was intentionally induced in a relatively short period and also may have been done with chemicals not normally encountered. They are both environmental damage to the surface of the coin. For NT, there is a premium... for known AT there is scorn...except in some cases. I have seen premiums paid for wild colors on some coins that were obviously not natural. So, it does matter to coin purists. Cheers, RickO
Based on the different patterns and colors most of the coins do not appear to be gassed. There are a couple that have the in holder gas look. My guess the guy is buying Chinese plastic. He cracks the coin from the original holder does the AT job and puts the cert and coin into the new plastic. As noted there are some different marks on the plastic of OP before and after coins.
@Coinstartled said:
So the Wayte Raymond toning was ok if it was unexpected.
Got it!
Different issue than what we're dealing with here. Seller is passing of a coin as having been deemed to have market-acceptable toning by PCGS when that is demonstrably not the case. If the coin in the second sale were suddenly in a new holder after acquiring all its colors, then the "natural vs. artificial vs. questionable toning" holy war could be waged.
I'm not sure I'd remove the listing completely. We've all run into a cert lookup now and then that doesn't come up in the database for one reason or another, and especially with older holders, it may just get overlooked as "Well, it's a Rattler".
If it were up to me (Clearly not) - I would screenshot the 2 pics in this thread and attach them to the cert lookup - with a "Original Coin" and "After Artificial Toning done while in the slab" - but I think we would have copyright issues using those images.
2nd choice would be in this section:
List something like:
10/29/18 - eBay as a white coin
11/19/18 - Coin is being resold after being chemically altered in the slab with artificial toning
Perhaps now next to the grade where it says MS63 - put: MS63 (originally) - as of 11/19/18 - Artificially Toned or something like that.
But that's just me.
Something like that would be a good idea! NGC recently did this with a coin that was proven to be gassed:
@Coinstartled said:
So the Wayte Raymond toning was ok if it was unexpected.
Got it!
Different issue than what we're dealing with here. Seller is passing of a coin as having been deemed to have market-acceptable toning by PCGS when that is demonstrably not the case. If the coin in the second sale were suddenly in a new holder after acquiring all its colors, then the "natural vs. artificial vs. questionable toning" holy war could be waged.
I don't disagree. Slab is thirty years old. What if this toning occurred over three decades rather than 3 weeks. Still not ok?
@slider23 To me, the slabs seem the same. Check out the the defect in the holder where it touches the coin right at 6 o'clock and the sort of excess plastic around the outer ring near 5 to 6 o'clock. This said, there does seem to be a new defect at about 4 o'clock on the slab in the second picture, after the coin was toned. But the pictures are obviously taken at different angles, so I guess it maybe did not show up in the first picture.
However, I do not see any obvious place where anything, such as a needle, was inserted through the side of the slab in order to introduce gas to the coin. That's too bad because I'd still like to understand how this is done.
However, I do not see any obvious place where anything, such as a needle, was inserted through the side of the slab in order to introduce gas to the coin. That's too bad because I'd still like to understand how this is done.
No need for a needle...these slabs are not very airtight like the ones today so a gaseous compound can be introduced without any modification to the slab, just a positive pressure differential between the air containing the compound that the person wants to introduce into the slab and the air in the slab. The lower pressure air in the slab is forced out by the higher pressure air containing the compound and voila! Compound is now in the slab and toning commences.
Comments
@coinbuf said: "Check a couple posts above yours, you can get the full details from the forum member caught doing this. He is still a member today."
I read the entire thread. No info. I was hoping for some PM's. I'll find out several methods in due time.
I'm not sure I'd remove the listing completely. We've all run into a cert lookup now and then that doesn't come up in the database for one reason or another, and especially with older holders, it may just get overlooked as "Well, it's a Rattler".
If it were up to me (Clearly not) - I would screenshot the 2 pics in this thread and attach them to the cert lookup - with a "Original Coin" and "After Artificial Toning done while in the slab" - but I think we would have copyright issues using those images.
2nd choice would be in this section:
List something like:
10/29/18 - eBay as a white coin
11/19/18 - Coin is being resold after being chemically altered in the slab with artificial toning
Perhaps now next to the grade where it says MS63 - put: MS63 (originally) - as of 11/19/18 - Artificially Toned or something like that.
But that's just me.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Something like that would be a good idea! NGC recently did this with a coin that was proven to be gassed:
Well one method isn't the excuse offered way back when. When caught red handed with a bunch on the bay, and had purchased several of these newly 'improved colorful gems' merely the month before and the original pics were still able to be viewed , somehow his "I accidentally left a box of 20 overnight on a radiator" didn't fly.
I'd a sold that radiator on eBay.
Not really . . . bidding is over $100 already.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
You guys saw he has 6 auctions running - of which 4 are PCGS and all appear AT'd.
https://ebay.com/sch/canes_70/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
The coin in the OP, plus:
https://ebay.com/itm/Rainbow-Toned-1883-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Pcgs-Rattler-MS62/183539108253?hash=item2abbc8899d:g:EqMAAOSw2fRb7s5m:rk:2:pf:0
https://ebay.com/itm/Rainbow-Toned-1881-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Pcgs-Rattler-MS63/183539121822?hash=item2abbc8be9e:g:MvkAAOSwKtlb7tHA:rk:4:pf:0
https://ebay.com/itm/Rainbow-Toned-1884-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Pcgs-MS63-OGH/183539113899?hash=item2abbc89fab:g:3-wAAOSwqnVb7s9z:rk:5:pf:0
And perhaps, what is worse - look at the feedback. 162 items, almost everything "Rainbow Toned" but for the most part raw, but 2 more sold slabs:
https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=canes_70&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=183539121822&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller
Including these:
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Those AT coins are hideous looking. People that pay a premium for that toning should get rid of their seeing eye dog and get a new one.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As a 'scientist' I would love to experiment making these.....................alas, work and life get in the way
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Hence why I wrote from the forum member not the thread, I was here when that was going on so I know the details are not laid out in that old thread.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
More AT Morgans.
Worse looking and more direct evidence of it than most of the thousands (millions?) Of fake color coins on the market.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Once it's pulled, then the auction is fair game to be reported to eBay as not being in a valid PCGS holder.
I hope that there's some way to flag the holder for what it is, even if that information is not currently available to the public, so that the seller can't simply present it to someone at PCGS saying "there must be a mistake" and have the cert reinstated.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That's awesome! Down with the coin doctors!
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Maybe they (PCGS) could put a sliver of C4 in the slab and if the slab was messed with it would ignite the C4.
Actually, C4 burns just like an average lump of plastic, but perhaps they could include a little indicator strip. They include one with each batch of surgical instruments prior to sterlilization. In that case, sufficient heat turns the indicator a different color as a visual verification of sterility. In the case of a slab, perhaps an indicator strip would detect AT compounds (like sulfur) and show a color change to inform us all that something naughty happened.
Shoot, maybe I should file a patent.
Can I hire this guy to do custom work? My 4 year old daughter is having a birthday soon and she would think it is really cool to have her name in rainbow colors on a Morgan (or a 1794 Dollar) within a slab - PCGS of course.
In all seriousness, this person should face the wrath of the entire collecting community and PCGS. Not cool at all.
Good detective work!
100% Positive BST transactions
I'm truly sorry, if I hurt anybodies feelings. I sometimes forget what a delicate little world we live in today. I got warned for breaking a rule on phobias. And for the record I have no phobias, in fact I have friends and some family who are, can I say "Happy"! So, again please forgive me if I came off the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. In the future, I will try to be more careful on my choice of words...
How about natural gas toned?
Whoever buys it will have his name and addy and should forward it to PCGS. One could always return it as a SNAD maybe.
Contact ebay and do a PSA about gassing of coins in the slab to artificially tone them and have ebay put it in the beware section.
Too bad you just relinquished the idea to Our Hosts by posting it here.
Going forward, an indicator in the label that turns color when exposed to a hostile environment would be cool, but would do nothing for the rattlers that are most susceptible to this.
I think bird-dogging more evidence about this guy's sales and encouraging PCGS's legal department to send him a Scary Letter™ might be pretty effective.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Some idiot has bid up the first one to $101! Or could be someone trying to “win” it nad never pay for it like Mark Feld used to do 😆
HLT, welcome to the forum. ;-)
Good evening, Renman!
I thought C4 was highly explosive. At least it is in the movies.
C4 is highly explosive, but it is very stable. You can literally burn it like firewood with nothing to worry about. However, if you were to burn it and while it was on fire, take a hammer to it, well that is different.
I think PCGS should instead of deactivating the certificate number, list it as "Compromised". That would raise a lot of questions by possible buyers.
I was wanting to do some serious damage to these coin doctors!!
Nope, burns fine at atmospheric pressure. It can even be used to heat up C ration food.
While in the employ of one Uncle Sam, my team was afforded the opportunity to parachute in, and destroy a railroad bridge and water tower. I carried a good amount of the C4, and others carried some, but the 2 people that carried the blasting caps were kept away from the C4.
Neither structure was standing by morning.
It was quite exciting to actually plan, set, wire, and then twist the handles on the blasting plungers, and watch everything come tumbling down.
BTW, the wire used on Claymore Mines IIRC, had a silver plating and made great speaker wire when the original device was consumed.
Might be a good time to start a "define the difference between AT and NT" thread.
The forum has yet to reach a consensus on that.
There were several of us that did this. Mark and I had much fun and happy bidding! Sometimes we could hear the selling singing all the way to the bank, but alas he got nothing. Many times our bids exceeded 10K for common coins. Great fun.
bob
Don't you need a Shave or smoething?
I used to work with explosives on a daily basis when I was in the military. Some things would make me nervous, but most didn't bother me one bit. As @mustangmanbob mentioned above, it was the blasting caps you had to worry about.
Five o'clock shadow..
And you're in a rush..
Ditch the Norelco..
And lather with a brush!
Burma Shave
Sometimes it's hard to define AT in words but like Potter Stewart said in 1954 I know it when I see it and every one of the coin doctor's items for sale is AT.
.
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
I'm still trying to figure out why the OP called us "savages".
>
Meaning that the toning was intentional....I get that. But how is it different than toning that is not intentional...and does it really matter how the so called tarnish originated?
I have seen notations of artificial toning as well as questionable toning. I am not sure what questionable means. It is still toning.
Tarnish is tarnish....'questionable' means they could not determine if it was NT or AT....The origin of tarnish matters to collectors because one has occurred over time and the other was intentionally induced in a relatively short period and also may have been done with chemicals not normally encountered. They are both environmental damage to the surface of the coin. For NT, there is a premium... for known AT there is scorn...except in some cases. I have seen premiums paid for wild colors on some coins that were obviously not natural. So, it does matter to coin purists. Cheers, RickO
So the Wayte Raymond toning was ok if it was unexpected.
Got it!
Based on the different patterns and colors most of the coins do not appear to be gassed. There are a couple that have the in holder gas look. My guess the guy is buying Chinese plastic. He cracks the coin from the original holder does the AT job and puts the cert and coin into the new plastic. As noted there are some different marks on the plastic of OP before and after coins.
Different issue than what we're dealing with here. Seller is passing of a coin as having been deemed to have market-acceptable toning by PCGS when that is demonstrably not the case. If the coin in the second sale were suddenly in a new holder after acquiring all its colors, then the "natural vs. artificial vs. questionable toning" holy war could be waged.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I love that!
My YouTube Channel
I don't disagree. Slab is thirty years old. What if this toning occurred over three decades rather than 3 weeks. Still not ok?
I would think it's much harder to stabilize the toning process with a slabbed coin.
8 Reales Madness Collection
As he said...
@slider23 To me, the slabs seem the same. Check out the the defect in the holder where it touches the coin right at 6 o'clock and the sort of excess plastic around the outer ring near 5 to 6 o'clock. This said, there does seem to be a new defect at about 4 o'clock on the slab in the second picture, after the coin was toned. But the pictures are obviously taken at different angles, so I guess it maybe did not show up in the first picture.
However, I do not see any obvious place where anything, such as a needle, was inserted through the side of the slab in order to introduce gas to the coin. That's too bad because I'd still like to understand how this is done.
Mark
No need for a needle...these slabs are not very airtight like the ones today so a gaseous compound can be introduced without any modification to the slab, just a positive pressure differential between the air containing the compound that the person wants to introduce into the slab and the air in the slab. The lower pressure air in the slab is forced out by the higher pressure air containing the compound and voila! Compound is now in the slab and toning commences.
K