Was George Washington the Vladimir Putin of the 18th century?

topstuf · November 15, 2018 8:48AM

I was admiring my Washington Cent last night.

Started me thinking. Those were minted in vanquished England.
So, why would England be our source for coinage, proposed or not?

Was England "sucking up" to the US that they had lost to?

Or just wanting to exploit what they knew they lost and to get a bit back as compensation?
Kinda interesting speculation.

Even the vaunted Libertas Americana pieces were made in FRANCE!
I can't see Europe ...threatened... (except as loss of raw materials) from any American INVASION. Of course, the economic penalty our geographic location gave us could have caused a BUNCH of problems to the "old world."

Maybe George was a tough cookie and Europe just didn't want to take any chances.

One thing for sure, both England and France outdid ...our ... early attempts at coinage.
Perhaps it's as simple as that. They had good machinery and we didn't.

Hmmmm????

bjamin · November 15, 2018 8:49AM

Love your specimen!

MilesWaits · November 15, 2018 9:04AM

The door has been opened. Who will step through?

Coinstartled · November 15, 2018 9:32AM

Washington was Mr. Clean, compared to Putin.

Regulated · November 15, 2018 1:05PM

During and after the Revolutionary War. there were many people in Britain and throughout Europe who saw both Washington and Franklin as heroes of the age - it wasn't about people sucking up to a strongman, it was more about their ideals and what they represented.

Washington was about as far from Putin as you could get - his ideal was that of Lucius Quintius Cincinnatus, the Roman general who was made dictator of Rome during two crises, yet immediately abdicated power once the crises had passed. Remember that Washington resigned the presidency after two terms, in effect creating the tradition that we have today, something that Putin clearly would never do...

BillJones · November 15, 2018 2:14PM

From what I understand, your coin was made by a British private minter who was looking for some overseas business. Washington rejected the idea of having his image on the coinage as "monarchical.” He didn’t want it, and it didn’t happen as a result.

Washington wanted to retire from the public sphere and go back to his plantation, Mount Vernon. When Washington declined the leadership of the United States at the end of the Revolutionary War, King George III said that if that were true, “He was the greatest man in the world.”

Washington did not take leadership position for the sake of power. He took them when he saw that his nation needed him. Comparing Washington to Putin is really ludicrous. There is no comparison with respect to their goals and objectives.

That’s not say that there were not those among the European royals who were happy with the rise in democracy. It concerned them, and French king soon learned that he had a lot about which to be concerned.

aus3000tin · November 15, 2018 2:28PM

Ben Franklin was a big influence in France which probably led to the coinage.
Recently, I've seen a documentatry on youtube about Ben.
Ben was more famous than George in France.
Leads me to believe had Ben run for President he would have bet out George.
It would have been short lived since Ben died in 1790.

Just my two cents.

Chris

RockyMtnProspector · November 15, 2018 2:54PM

@Regulated said:
During and after the Revolutionary War. there were many people in Britain and throughout Europe who saw both Washington and Franklin as heroes of the age - it wasn't about people sucking up to a strongman, it was more about their ideals and what they represented.

Washington was about as far from Putin as you could get - his ideal was that of Lucius Quintius Cincinnatus, the Roman general who was made dictator of Rome during two crises, yet immediately abdicated power once the crises had passed. Remember that Washington resigned the presidency after two terms, in effect creating the tradition that we have today, something that Putin clearly would never do...

Regulated is spot on.

dpoole · November 15, 2018 3:06PM

I don't even see the rationale for the thread title in what the OP posted, much less the merit of such a comparison.

Good looking pattern, though!

Regulated · November 15, 2018 3:11PM

Here is the rare ornamented edge version of one of the American-made Getz Patterns of 1792 that Washington apparently rejected because it used his image:

topstuf · November 15, 2018 3:13PM

I was just wondering if the allowances we presently make for Putin also figured in the creation of a likeness of a leader whose power was proven.

And that possibly some formed a sort of respect for the man as, if anyone reads modern media, is done with Putin.

Elmhurst · November 15, 2018 3:22PM

Well I'll take the bait. There is something to the comparison.

The American Revolution was largely in reaction to economic restrictions placed on the colonies by Parliament, which was beholden to the Bank of England-- an institution owned by private shareholders who wanted to control and restrict development in the Colonies.

Putin is operating against similar forces today.

Onastone · November 15, 2018 3:46PM

Beautiful looking cent!!!!! Love that Eagle too. What is that between his wings besides stars? It almost looks like he's juggling apples....

BillJones · November 15, 2018 3:50PM

@aus3000tin said:
Ben Franklin was a big influence in France which probably led to the coinage.
Recently, I've seen a documentatry on youtube about Ben.
Ben was more famous than George in France.
Leads me to believe had Ben run for President he would have bet out George.
It would have been short lived since Ben died in 1790.

Just my two cents.

Chris

Benjamin Frankin was the second most important American player in the revolution, next to George Washington. Franklin got the French to come in on our side, and Washington kept the movement together. Without both of them, the revolution would have failed.

As for Franklin, he was too old and too near the end of his life to run or become president. He died in 1790.

In addition to that, Even if he had been younger, Franklin had a pretty racy love life. He was quite the lady’s man, even when he was a younger man. He had a son, William, out of wedlock. Their relationship ended when William chose to remain loyal to the British crown.

Regulated · November 15, 2018 4:06PM

@BillJones said:

@aus3000tin said:
Ben Franklin was a big influence in France which probably led to the coinage.
Recently, I've seen a documentatry on youtube about Ben.
Ben was more famous than George in France.
Leads me to believe had Ben run for President he would have bet out George.
It would have been short lived since Ben died in 1790.

Just my two cents.

Chris

Benjamin Frankin was the second most important American player in the revolution, next to George Washington. Franklin got the French to come in on our side, and Washington kept the movement together. Without both of them, the revolution would have failed.

As for Franklin, he was too old and too near the end of his life to run or become president. He died in 1790.

In addition to that, Even if he had been younger, Franklin had a pretty racy love life. He was quite the lady’s man, even when he was a younger man. He had a son, William, out of wedlock. Their relationship ended when William chose to remain loyal to the British crown.

All of this is true, but also ignores Robert Morris, who may have been as important as either, but managed to get written out of the history books due to his status as a successful merchant, which ran up against certain biases in the post-Marxist academic world of the 20th Century.

On another note, here's a cool article about the Getz pieces that was written in the 1840s:

https://books.google.com/books?id=gScSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq=mcclintock+historical+magazine+eckfeldt&source=bl&ots=aoBdpZu7ta&sig=vvlH3fLzvWG1iYzKkcArkQ54Qdw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOrPSeu9feAhUJjlQKHfIOCKUQ6AEwAXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=mcclintock historical magazine eckfeldt&f=false

topstuf · November 15, 2018 4:11PM

@Onastone said:
Beautiful looking cent!!!!! Love that Eagle too. What is that between his wings besides stars? It almost looks like he's juggling apples....

Those are CLOUDS. Or what ....passed... for clouds in days of yore.

SaorAlba · November 15, 2018 4:23PM

@BillJones said:

In addition to that, Even if he had been younger, Franklin had a pretty racy love life. He was quite the lady’s man, even when he was a younger man. He had a son, William, out of wedlock. Their relationship ended when William chose to remain loyal to the British crown.

Most of our presidents have had pretty racy love lifes. Power invites vice.

lkenefic · November 15, 2018 5:01PM

@Elmhurst said:
Well I'll take the bait. There is something to the comparison.

The American Revolution was largely in reaction to economic restrictions placed on the colonies by Parliament, which was beholden to the Bank of England-- an institution owned by private shareholders who wanted to control and restrict development in the Colonies.

Putin is operating against similar forces today.

I think Putin has designs on becoming one of those oligarchs. If he was openly operating against them, we'd have much more leverage. Washington had no such ambition for that amount of unbridled financial gain from being president.

BillJones · November 15, 2018 5:46PM

@Regulated said:

@BillJones said:

@aus3000tin said:
Ben Franklin was a big influence in France which probably led to the coinage.
Recently, I've seen a documentatry on youtube about Ben.
Ben was more famous than George in France.
Leads me to believe had Ben run for President he would have bet out George.
It would have been short lived since Ben died in 1790.

Just my two cents.

Chris

Benjamin Frankin was the second most important American player in the revolution, next to George Washington. Franklin got the French to come in on our side, and Washington kept the movement together. Without both of them, the revolution would have failed.

As for Franklin, he was too old and too near the end of his life to run or become president. He died in 1790.

In addition to that, Even if he had been younger, Franklin had a pretty racy love life. He was quite the lady’s man, even when he was a younger man. He had a son, William, out of wedlock. Their relationship ended when William chose to remain loyal to the British crown.

All of this is true, but also ignores Robert Morris, who may have been as important as either, but managed to get written out of the history books due to his status as a successful merchant, which ran up against certain biases in the post-Marxist academic world of the 20th Century.

On another note, here's a cool article about the Getz pieces that was written in the 1840s:

https://books.google.com/books?id=gScSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq=mcclintock+historical+magazine+eckfeldt&source=bl&ots=aoBdpZu7ta&sig=vvlH3fLzvWG1iYzKkcArkQ54Qdw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOrPSeu9feAhUJjlQKHfIOCKUQ6AEwAXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=mcclintock historical magazine eckfeldt&f=false

Robert Morris and William Bingham, who was married to Anne Willing Bingham, who once thought to be the model for the Drapped Bust design coinage, both staked their fortunes to buying weapons and supplies for the Continental Army when our currency was worthless. They did great things for the revolution, but they were not up to the level of Washington and Franklin.

Regulated · November 15, 2018 6:08PM

It is worth taking the time to study what Morris did between 1775 and 1787- it's reasonable to assert that the government would have failed without him between 1775-78, and he more or less ran the executive branch from 1781-84.

Many of the issues central to the Constitution were brought up by him during his tenure as Superintendent of Finance, and he was the guy who called the Constitutional Convention to order, and nominated Washington for President.

Elmhurst · November 15, 2018 9:33PM

@lkenefic said:

@Elmhurst said:
Well I'll take the bait. There is something to the comparison.

The American Revolution was largely in reaction to economic restrictions placed on the colonies by Parliament, which was beholden to the Bank of England-- an institution owned by private shareholders who wanted to control and restrict development in the Colonies.

Putin is operating against similar forces today.

I think Putin has designs on becoming one of those oligarchs. If he was openly operating against them, we'd have much more leverage. Washington had no such ambition for that amount of unbridled financial gain from being president.

I agree. Washington was a patriot. Putin has been an oligarch for some time now. The fight against the Bankers continues, for one reason or another.

SoCalBigMark · November 15, 2018 10:25PM

I think Topsuff is putin us on.

BryceM · November 15, 2018 10:28PM

Cool coin, but comparing those two is disgusting.

ricko · November 16, 2018 8:38AM

That is a great old coin... a real treasure. Washington was a unique individual with strict principles and beliefs. No comparison between Washington and Putin... Two entirely different individuals.... Cheers, RickO

topstuf · November 16, 2018 10:05AM

@BryceM said:
Cool coin, but comparing those two is disgusting.

Aw dammit all to hell, I give up. I am going into exile!
My....intent.... was not to compare WASHINGTON with PUTIN but rather to compare how the OTHER nations responded by selling coinage to us and whether that was because they were SCARED....**(and sucking up)*..... like (I believe) is the attitude from other nations to Putin and they just don't MESS with him.

So, I think that's as clear as I can make it.

How the REST OF THE WORLD regarded Washington vis-a-vis how they now regard PUTIN!

So now I'm gonna PUTIN some tobacco and smoke my pipe and pretend that I didn't post this in the first frikkin place.

Hmmmm.... maybe Washington was a COMMIE !!!!

dpoole · November 16, 2018 11:13AM

NOW he's calling Washington a Commie!!

lkenefic · November 16, 2018 11:22AM

It's a comparison that can never be made. Fiat currency came about in the US in the 20th Century. Free markets dominate today, and we don't have to buy raw coinage material abroad.

topstuf · November 16, 2018 11:29AM

@dpoole said:
NOW he's calling Washington a Commie!!

Who's Washington? Are you guys nuts? I know I'm not so it has to be you guys.

Catbert · November 16, 2018 11:33AM

topstuf - forum jester extraordinaire!

topstuf · November 16, 2018 11:37AM

@Catbert said:
topstuf - forum jester extraordinaire!

You forgot COMMIE, too.

"Coins from each according to his ability, to each according to his wantlist"

Namvet69 · November 16, 2018 12:07PM

Colonial America needed coinage, the rest of the world made coinage, official and lots of private token, coins, etc. I don't see it as a stretch that enterprising colonialists had connections in England to get stuff minted. Send your metal to the blacksmith and months later you get a small keg or sack of coins. Peace Roy

BryceM · November 16, 2018 3:34PM

OK, OK, I think I get where you were trying to go with this thread. Maybe wording the title better might have helped.

As for your premise, I think most of the items were produced to make a buck, not to appease a nation.

topstuf · November 16, 2018 4:07PM

I can edit it to read, "WASHINGTON: Communist opportunist seizes control of new nation!

Was George Washington the Vladimir Putin of the 18th century?

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